The most glaring omission...

[Waku]

Originally posted by Ribannah
but what did they give human civilization?

Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Edited out. It's not worth wasting my time with this.

[Oerdin]

There are far more people in Spanish speaking countries then in Arabic countries so I'd have to give the nod to the Spanards.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Difficult, innit?

The Iroquois 7 Zulus could be cut and I wouldn't shead a tear. They are simply historical foot notes.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Difficult, innit?

The Iroquois & Zulus could be cut and I wouldn't shead a tear. They are simply historical foot notes.

[ixnay]

Originally posted by Anunikoba

Also another thing to consider is the civ leaders. Who would you pick to represent the Arabs or the Spanish? The leaders for the civs that are included in the game are quite well known: Cleopatra, Ceasar (Julius, Augustus- which Ceasar is in the game btw?), Lincoln, Gandhi....

Julius.

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Steve Clark


Why is this even an issue? Just wait a little while and you'll probably see 100+ civs available to put into the 16 slots. Makes everything discussed here completely moot, imo.

For example, one of my very favorite Civ2 game I played included the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Minoans, Babylonians, Persians (and someone else), plus the barbarians disguised as Libyan raiders. You understand what I'm getting at?

Now in Civ3, whether these new ones include those fancy 3D leaders is irrelevant, imo. As far as civ attributes, those should not be in the regular game, only in scenarios.

It occurred to me that I don't know the answer to the degree of customization for the leaders. Do we know if we will be able to generate the 3D heads of any leader or person and place them into one of the custom civs? I still say that it is not important but most of the time, you'll be staring at the game map and interacting with your units and cities.

[Roman]

Arabs certainly were a massive unified state stretching from present day Iran to Morrocco and Spain under the Umayyad and the Abbasid dynasties.

Their cultural achievements are remarkable. They gave us one of the world's main religions, their architecture is awe inspiring and they produced excellent literature.

Scientific developments of the Arabs have also been considerable, especially in medicine. They also preserved much of the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans, while Europe was semi-barbarous.

There are many other notable achievements of the Arabs. They should make it into an expansion pack, which I think is likely if the game sells well.

[Roman]

It seems I am now ready to be crowned a king.

Now, who will preform the corronation ceremony and which deity will sponsor me?

[Tventano]

Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

Waku, I thought that the independence war of the Netherlands was finished in 1648 with the peace of Muenster and that further hostilities were not needed anymore.

The Spanish have transported much more slaves than the Dutch.
The West Indian Trading Company did more pirating Spanish ships (remember Piet Hein who conquered the silverfleet ?) than that it transported slaves.

Later the dutch supported the United States in their strugle with England which led again to a war with the english.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Spanish: Isabella

Arabs: Saladin

No no no!

Spanish: Charles V or Phillip II

I would make the Arab civ the Ottomans, and have Sulayman as their leader. One of history's greatest rulers!

Cheers

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Waku
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

Many tribes crossed the oceans long before the Spanish did, and the fact that the Spanish beat the Portuguese & others to the Americas in that particular timeframe was only due to the fact that Spain was not self-supportive and hence was in just a little more hurry to discover new routes to get rich. But it could as well have been any of their rivals, they all had the skill and the incentive.

The interesting part is what the European tribes did in the (re-)discovered lands,
because that was very different for each of them. While the Spanish initially went to plunder, the others could afford to take a longer-term view: the Dutch (later followed by Swedes and Danes), with their smaller population, concentrated more on trade with the natives, while the British favoured government (the French and Portuguese had a more even mix of politics).

The Portuguese started the slave traffic over the Atlantic Ocean (slave trade as such was already done by African tribes among themselves), but 90% of it was actually done by the British as said before in identical threads.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Many tribes crossed the oceans long before the Spanish did

Ribanita please read again: spaniards tought the world how to cross the ocean, do not read what it's not written.

Originally posted by Ribannah
the Dutch (later followed by Swedes and Danes), with their smaller population, concentrated more on trade with the natives,

as a merchandise

Originally posted by Ribannah
The Portuguese started the slave traffic over the Atlantic Ocean (slave trade as such was already done by African tribes among themselves), but 90% of it was actually done by the British as said before in identical threads.

You're no rebating what I've said. Again: Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Tventano
The Spanish have transported much more slaves than the Dutch.

Get a book!

We were too busy pludering america.
Spaniards were of course a part of this atrocity but our role was to buy the slaves brought to America by others.

[Jay Bee]

Don't bother Waku. She's just giving (again) another proof of her vast knowledge. It's clear from her post that she does not know who Columbus was, why he did what he did, what reasons brought him to Spain, what navigation is, etc, etc, etc....

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Waku
Ribanita please read again: spaniards tought the world how to cross the ocean, do not read what it's not written.

Waku Waku, how small is your world? Did you forget the Vikings, even? Not to mention the Chinese, Phoenicians, Ethiopians, did we not learn from them? Even the Polynesians were able to cross the oceans. There was nothing essential to be taught by the Spanish, all the seafaring tribes already possessed the 'skill'.
Why can you not be happy by proudly saying that the Spanish rediscovered the Americas, ahead of their rivals, instead of adding and adding to it until it turns into a blatant nothing (and making it so easy to counter)?

You're no rebating what I've said. Again: Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves.

So they did, it is a black page in Dutch history. But it was only a small part of Dutch trade, while it was a big part of British trade and the British and Spanish were the main buyers. So there is no reason to single out the Dutch, except that they were relatively harsh towards the slaves they transported.

[orange]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There are far more people in Spanish speaking countries then in Arabic countries so I'd have to give the nod to the Spanards.

Actually, I don't know if that's correct.

I think the Arab countries have it by 50 million or so.

I did a quick count of all Arab speaking countries (where it was dominant...so not including Pakistan and Afghanistan) and Spanish speaking countries (not including Brazil...Portugese) and I came up with 375,000,000 Arab to 310,000,000 Spanish.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Don't bother Waku. She's just giving (again) another proof of her vast knowledge. It's clear from her post that she does not know who Columbus was, why he did what he did, what reasons brought him to Spain, what navigation is, etc, etc, etc....

Columbus didn't even use up-to-date celestial navigation as developed by the Portuguese, who were the innovative seafarers of the time/region.

[Urban Ranger]

Waku, Jay Bee:

Heard of Chang Ho?

He was this Chinese person who led a fleet of massive ships to travel all the way to the East coast of Africa, years before Columbus.

Now lets get back on the topic.

[Jay Bee]

UR, what has that to do with anything? I see your point but I think you also see mine.

[orange]

It was quite a feat at the time, but remember UR...he didn't cross oceans, he followed coastline

Quit being so pro PRC

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by orange
It was quite a feat at the time, but remember UR...he didn't cross oceans, he followed coastline

{edit: link starts here}{The first Treasure Fleet} (of Cheng Ho in 1405-1407 - Rib) consisted of 62 ships; four were huge wood boats, some of the largest ever built in history. They were approximately 400 feet (122 meters) long and 160 feet (50 meters) wide. The four were the flagships of the fleet of 62 ships assembled at Nanjing along the Yangtze (Chang) River. Included in the fleet were 339-foot (103-meter) long horse ships that carried nothing but horses, water ships that carried fresh water for the crew, troop transports, supply ships, and war ships for offensive and defensive needs. The ships were filled with thousands of tons of Chinese goods to trade with others during the voyage. In the fall of 1405 the fleet was ready to embark with 27,800 men.

Now, that is what I call an exploration

The fleet utilized the compass, invented in China in the 11th century, for navigation. Graduated sticks of incense were burned to measure time. One day was equal to 10 "watches" of 2.4 hours each. Chinese navigators determine latitude through monitoring the North Star (Polaris) in the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern Cross in the Southern Hemisphere. The ships of the Treasure Fleet communicated with one another through the use of flags, lanterns, bells, carrier pigeons, gongs, and banners.

The destination of the first voyage of the Treasure Fleet was Calicut, known as a major trading center on the southwestern coast of India. India was initially "discovered" by Chinese overland explorer Hsuan-Tsang in the seventh century. The fleet stopped in Vietnam, and Malacca, and then headed west ACROSS THE INDIAN OCEAN (my caps - Rib) to Sri Lanka and Calicut and Cochin (cities on the southwest coast of India).

... It's likely that a detachment of one of Cheng Ho's fleets sailed to northern Australia during one of the seven voyages based upon the Chinese artifacts found as well as the oral history of the Aborigine.

[Fiil]

"In the fall of 1405 the fleet was ready to embark with 27,800 men."

Hey that's enough to fit in the whole Iroqouis nation at its peak - maybe we should build one!
But don't you worry Ribannah there will be room for you too!

[orange]

Rib - island hopping is not sailing across an ocean. The Atlantic Ocean is more than 3000 miles wide where the first Euro explorers crossed (Spain to the Carribbean)

India to Somalia is substantially less. I'm fairly sure I've seen maps of the journey, which hugged coastline for the majority of it.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by orange
Rib - island hopping is not sailing across an ocean.

If you have proof that my source is wrong, show me and I'll stand corrected.

The Atlantic Ocean is more than 3000 miles wide where the first Euro explorers crossed (Spain to the Carribbean)

That may be so, but I think they had the Azores as an intermediate point.
Also note that at the time Columbus expected the journey to be much shorter, and they were very lucky to make it. It was a formidable feat.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ribannah

If you have proof that my source is wrong, show me and I'll stand corrected.

How can he do this when you didn't cite the source? Same is true for your Iroquous info. Please cite. If it's taken from a Web source, provide a link. Don't be ashamed of your sources.

[Ribannah]

Boris, my style setting clearly shows the links I provided in blue! Can't you see them? ("The first Treasure Fleet" in my post above).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Boris, my style setting clearly shows the links I provided in blue! Can't you see them? ("The first Treasure Fleet" in my post above).

No, I can't, as THE ENTIRE QUOTE IS BLUE. There is no distinction on my screen between the link and the rest of the quote. But thank you for clarifying.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
No, I can't, as THE ENTIRE QUOTE IS BLUE. There is no distinction on my screen between the link and the rest of the quote. But thank you for clarifying.

Yikes. I have the normal text of the quote in amber (and a black background).
I'll try to make my links in past posts more visible.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

[orange]

scroll to the map. It was the second hit on google

http://www.chinapage.com/chengho.html