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Old October 5, 2001, 12:30   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Only one person here claims that the Iroquois were on the level of, say, the Spanish, but many want the Iroquois included for different reasons than simple "importance".
The Spanish on the same level as the Iroquois? They'd wish!
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Old October 5, 2001, 12:45   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
In the modern world, we now have a tendancy to view history through rose colored glasses in reguards to native american cultures.
The fact is, and always was, these primative societies were on subsistance survival level (which is why there was so few of them in the Americas to start with), and were accustomed to taking what they wanted from others by force as the first option (read the links if you disagree).
They had the monumental misfortune of meeting a people (the Europeans) whom would also take what they wanted, and were better at it, but would have lived peacably if not continually attacked (Native custom, for the Six Nations, the yearly tribal raid on neigbhors).
Over time, as the Europeans multiplied, they would become cronic aggressors, and constant treaty breakers, but the fact is, the natives began this pattern, having "sowed the wind, they were forced to reap the whirlwind" so to speak.
We can't say that the europeans would have behaved any differently had the natives not continually attacked them, but we will never know that with any certaincy.
WHAT THE??? There is NO way that a reputable institution like Columbia would even acknowledge this BS, I hope . I don't know where to begin with these ridiculous statements, you don't have to go crazy just to support your argument.

Last edited by static; October 5, 2001 at 12:59.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:04   #93
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static - no, I believe you're simply backing up what Chris is trying to say. It's partially political correctness, it forces us to boost the signifigance of things like Native American culture. In the overall scheme of human existance, Native North American tribes such as the Iroquois play a minimal role...and that is dominated by their place in European based wars, like the seven years war, or the American revolution.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:04   #94
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Guys...
*Dispenses chill pills all around*

Deep breaths, everyone. Relax. Repeat mantra: "It's just a game."

Ok, it isn't JUST a game, but still...

Chris,

While I agree with the general point that the Iroquois should have been supplanted in the game by another, more world-altering Civ (and I still say the Ottomans/Muslims is the obvious choice), I pretty much categorically disagree with your post down the line.

First, the links you provided, while by no means placing the Iroquois on a level of "Great Civilization," also do not support your thesis of equating them to Cro-Magnon man. Your comparison is quite dubious, because you say the Iroquois recorded things via wampum. This in itself shows a sophistication (while not comparable to our written language) of record-keeping that eluded Cro-Magnon. You say the Iroquois had no legal code, but they had an eloborate constitution (which you can read for yourself here: http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/iroquois.html

The level of cultural complexity spelled out in this document far surpasses anything we know about Cro-Magnon many times over. As for science, don't forget that the Iroquois did have an inventive agriculture system, again far more complex than anything known to be Cro-Magnon. And you can't say Cro-Magnon had no legal code or education or science, as we don't know since there are no written records.

Quote:
You are all guilty of being politically correct, when you assert the the six nations were a "great civilization".
While I have never asserted this, nor will, I don't think it's wise to presume the intentions of others or why they feel this way. Political correctness is a red-herring statement misused all over, so I wouldn't bandy it around here. It's a label meant to infer illegitimacy on the in-depth consideration of previously ignored or little-valued subjects. Most people who throw this label at people are doing so because they're afraid of having their assumptions and prejudices uprooted.

Quote:
Over time, as the Europeans multiplied, they would become cronic aggressors, and constant treaty breakers, but the fact is, the natives began this pattern, having "sowed the wind, they were forced to reap the whirlwind" so to speak.
Hmm, sounds like the American commander's defense of massacring women and children at Wounded Knee. The fact is not that the natives began this pattern. That's not fact at all. It's a complex issue, but European's track records in treatment of indigenous peoples is abysmal at best. Did the Iroquois act with violence? Given the barbarous tendencies of the Mohawks, I'm sure. Did they start it? I don't think we can say that. In this situation, the best you can say is that it took two to tango. And the Europeans met violence with violence ten times over.

Quote:
We can't say that the europeans would have behaved any differently had the natives not continually attacked them, but we will never know that with any certaincy.
I can say, without any hesitation, that the Europeans would have behaved exactly the same without this supposed "continual aggression." Why? The proof is to look at every other colonization attempt by Europeans around the world. Whether it be the Spanish conquistadors, the American colonists, the South African Boers, the Australians, there is one consistency: the violent subjugation and virtual elimination of indigenous peoples to make way for colonial expansion.

Quote:
The same is true of Meso-American (Although far more advanced), still can't be considered great.
Considering most historians (read Arnold Toynbee for an example) rank the Mexic, Mayan and Andean civilizations as both "real" civilizations and important, I will have to disagree here as well.

Quote:
In historical discussions, I am frank and to the point.
As am I, and let me be frank: your post demonstrated a lot of bad history and false claims. While I agree with the point that the Iroquois should not be in the game, I cannot abide using such methods to try and prove the point.

Cheers.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:30   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by orange
static - no, I believe you're simply backing up what Chris is trying to say. It's partially political correctness, it forces us to boost the signifigance of things like Native American culture. In the overall scheme of human existance, Native North American tribes such as the Iroquois play a minimal role...and that is dominated by their place in European based wars, like the seven years war, or the American revolution.
Have to disagree, I don't think I'm backing up what Chris is saying. He's making assertions that the Iroquois were only the equal of Cro-Magnon man, and that they were the aggressors to the Europeans. I just find his comments really misguided and uninformed. I think people need to keep in mind the the Iroquois were the dominant Civ in Native America, and were significant for centuries. Just because they weren't huge in European history, doesn't mean they weren't important in World history.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:35   #96
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I didn't mean "backing up" as in you were supporting him. I meant giving credibility to his claims that some of the statements made about Native American culture are embellished in the name of Political Correctness, and to an extent, this idea of multi-culturalism.

I think comparing them to Cro-Magnon man is wrong, but it's a lot closer than saying that they rival the Spanish or any Euro civ in world impact. The Iroquois are a dominant civ in Native America, you're right. But as I said before, overall, when compared with all other civs, they are insignifigant. 16 spots and the Iroquois make it, but the Spanish don't? That to me, is a bit hard to swallow.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:36   #97
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I'd like to strike my previous apology from the record, and stand by my initial assessment:

Ignorant and foolish. Oh well.
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Old October 5, 2001, 13:41   #98
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Originally posted by Guynemer
Not sure what you're trying to say here, Waku.
As many differents civs as possible is only one of the improvements I wanted. 99% of the civ2 features I wanted to be fixed or improved with civ3 will remain almost the same, "wonderful animated units brandishing their swords consuming all my PC resources to not to be able to play and come to apolyton at the same time" is not what I was waiting for.
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:04   #99
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Originally posted by orange
I didn't mean "backing up" as in you were supporting him. I meant giving credibility to his claims that some of the statements made about Native American culture are embellished in the name of Political Correctness, and to an extent, this idea of multi-culturalism.

I think comparing them to Cro-Magnon man is wrong, but it's a lot closer than saying that they rival the Spanish or any Euro civ in world impact. The Iroquois are a dominant civ in Native America, you're right. But as I said before, overall, when compared with all other civs, they are insignifigant. 16 spots and the Iroquois make it, but the Spanish don't? That to me, is a bit hard to swallow.
I will definantly agree that the Spanish should be in ahead of Iroquis , I can't understand how they could be left out. But the Iroquis influence was much greater than many Euro, Asian, African Civs, they would be in my Top 25. After the Top 10 Civs, IMHO(Romans, British, Chinese, Egyptian, American,French, Spanish, Greek, Russian, Ottoman Empire) its kinda a toss-up for the next 15, so picking only 16 Civs is ALWAYS going to a controversial process.
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:04   #100
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Well, I am one of the supporters of Spain, to make that clear. Three civs I think are really missing from civ3: primarily the Arabs and secondly the Mongols and the Spaniards.

But, as for the Iroquis deal... well, because of the Iroqui confederation and their constitutional system it was considered the dominant (culturaly speaking) civ of North America.

Others know more than me about this and I should let them speak of, but this whole "let's have a civ from every corner of the world" exceeds the PCness of Firaxis. It is not about PCness, it is about cultural diversity...

...and, yes, marketing

But still, the major error in this game is that they do not include a real (black) African civilization, but the insignificant Zulus... that really pisses me off
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:17   #101
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Originally posted by Ubik
Orange

Well, I am one of the supporters of Spain, to make that clear. Three civs I think are really missing from civ3: primarily the Arabs and secondly the Mongols and the Spaniards.

But, as for the Iroquis deal... well, because of the Iroqui confederation and their constitutional system it was considered the dominant (culturaly speaking) civ of North America.

Others know more than me about this and I should let them speak of, but this whole "let's have a civ from every corner of the world" exceeds the PCness of Firaxis. It is not about PCness, it is about cultural diversity...

...and, yes, marketing

But still, the major error in this game is that they do not include a real (black) African civilization, but the insignificant Zulus... that really pisses me off
I agree the Zulus weren't significant, and the Mali or Ethopians (who were significant) would be better historical choices. But..., the Zulus have a known leader with distinct qualities that add to gameplay. This is the only Civ included that not even in my Top 100, however I'll let this one pass in the interest of fun and variety.
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:23   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah


The Spanish on the same level as the Iroquois? They'd wish!

Put your crusade to rest, dear. Don't we have had enough of this nonsense already?
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:32   #103
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This has been said already a good number of times but hey, another one won't hurt. The problem is of course why Firaxis limited themselves to 16 civs. Only purely commercial reasons justify such decision. This is sad, especially because of the educative potential of this game.
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:35   #104
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About warfare in the region before the Europeans arrived: you are both half right.
The constant aggression between all the different tribes was precisely the reason why the Iroquois confederacy was formed: so that they could at least have peace among themselves, and stand united against others. There is talk of a mythical Peacekeeper (possibly Huron) who set things into motion.
Later more such confederacies arose, such as the Wabanaki (1710), the Three Fires and the Seven Nations. There were other types of bonding as well, for instance the Cree-Soto-Nakadu alliance (the Nakudu, or Assiniboin, split off from the Sioux).

Static: is not the Ethiopian queen Sheba equally well-known as Shaka Zulu?
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:43   #105
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Do not forget when Wabanaki joined the Nakadu forming the biggest alliance ever against the redbearded farmers of South Carolina.
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Old October 5, 2001, 14:53   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Static: is not the Ethiopian queen Sheba equally well-known as Shaka Zulu?
Yes, but Shaku had a more unique personality that adds a little variety to the game. I still think the Ethiopians should be in ahead of the Zulus, however it doesn't bother me that much that the Zulus were included.
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Old October 5, 2001, 15:20   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by static
After the Top 10 Civs, IMHO(Romans, British, Chinese, Egyptian, American, French, Spanish, Greek, Russian, Ottoman Empire) its kinda a toss-up for the next 15, so picking only 16 Civs is ALWAYS going to a controversial process.
For the record, here is my present top 10
Romans, Chinese, Greeks, British, Babylonians, French, Americans, Dutch, Arabs, Mayas.
Several others are not far behind.
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Old October 5, 2001, 15:27   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by orange
I didn't mean "backing up" as in you were supporting him. I meant giving credibility to his claims that some of the statements made about Native American culture are embellished in the name of Political Correctness, and to an extent, this idea of multi-culturalism.
This is quite right.

Quote:
I think comparing them to Cro-Magnon man is wrong, but it's a lot closer than saying that they rival the Spanish or any Euro civ in world impact. The Iroquois are a dominant civ in Native America, you're right. But as I said before, overall, when compared with all other civs, they are insignifigant. 16 spots and the Iroquois make it, but the Spanish don't? That to me, is a bit hard to swallow.
Again, he got the point.

Comparing the Iroquois to Spanish culture is laughable.

Quote:
I'd like to strike my previous apology from the record, and stand by my initial assessment:

Ignorant and foolish. Oh well.
I gave you the benifit of the doubt, but now I'm convinced.
You are an imbecile.
Quote:
WHAT THE??? There is NO way that a reputable institution like Columbia would even acknowledge this BS, I hope . I don't know where to begin with these ridiculous statements, you don't have to go crazy just to support your argument.
They do indeed, as do repudable instituions.
I'm sorry to shatter the illustions of so many of you, but facts are facts.
Your refusal to accept them lies at the heart of your difficulties.
These are the hard truths of the world, it's not all black and white.
I'm not arguing with anyone, nor making "crazy" statements.
But it is self-evident that the PC crowd worked a lot of you over pretty well.
Quote:
Have to disagree, I don't think I'm backing up what Chris is saying. He's making assertions that the Iroquois were only the equal of Cro-Magnon man, and that they were the aggressors to the Europeans. I just find his comments really misguided and uninformed. I think people need to keep in mind the the Iroquois were the dominant Civ in Native America, and were significant for centuries. Just because they weren't huge in European history, doesn't mean they weren't important in World history.
No, what I was attempting to point out (As Orange understood), was that they (the Iroquois) were not advanced at all, and in fact, had reached a "status-quo" as a society, but stopped growing and advancing as a people.
Other parts of the world have moved on, they had not.
If you read carefully, I'm complelty correct about who attacked whom first.
The fisrt European colony in the Americas was razed by the natives (not the Iroquois), so there is nothing "misguided or uninformed" about what I said.
I have no illusions at what Europeans would have done, reguardless of what you all are now assuming, but I do know what I'm taking about.
Stop making excuses for the Indians. They aern't the "noble savages" that they are now painted as in the modern era by the PC crowd.
Quote:
Uh, huh... Chris, is that kind of history being taught in Columbia? Oh my, oh my... things are getting worst and worst there...
Yes, Greece is renowned for it's fair and unbiased view of the world in it's universities.
I also happen to be greek, mon ami.

Quote:
What excactly did you mastered in, Chris? I mean, yes, history, but this is a great field. Huuuuuge actually. In what kind of history? Mine was in Medieval Balkan history.
Modern European history, specifcally, 1900-1945, with 4 years of general studies in all fields.
You neglected to mention your university, "professor".

Quote:
Pardon me... WHAT??? Where did you see that written? "the natives began this pattern"? The Europeans "lived peacably"????? Gosh, do you even know what you are talking about?
Far more then you, obviously.

Quote:
I am not going even to trash this statement, because it is past logical assumptions and any rational debating. A few words only: Utter and Total Rubish.
In other words, you don't know what your talking about, have ZERO rebuttal, so fall back on the old PC trick "all of you know what I mean"

Yes, really relavent.

Quote:
Another precious jewel of pompeous trashing a civ ...on what criteria? What do you mean "important", my friend? As an historian (if you are one) you should be fully aware that the importance of a civilization is not based on personal povs or even the "contribution" of that civilization to the humanity in general.
Yet another pointless swipe on your part.
I have been debating know nothings like you for years.
Facts, my lad, are all that count.
Still waiting for your credentials, old boy.
Mine are confirmed, by several of the people in this very thread.
Care to throw out more baseless accusation?
Quote:
The "importance" of a civilization lies in it's uniquenes, in it's diversity, it's time/space span, it's cultural productivity and the impact on it's environment. Those are not things you included in your "charts" where you compared Cro Magnon with Iroquis...
We are talking about wether they are more signicant for inclusion then Spain.
I was pointing out, and quite correctly, that they are closer to primative man than the highly cultred Iberians, but this escaped you, you see my post not as history, but a bash against the poor red men.
Fool. Pay attention!
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That is not revisionist or reformist history, that is standard history. Where did you read or learned that the significance of a civilization is ... for instance... the size of the armies it could produce, or whatever your stupid criteria for trashing the brilliant meso american civilizations are.
People like you make me ill.
Assume, then jump from your assumption that it is now fact.
You think the Aztecs or the Maya equal the Europeans and Asians in culture and acchivment?!!?
A people who didn't have the wheel, and practised human sacrifice?!!?
You are the embodiment of Political correctness, assuming I'm bashing something, when I mearly pointed out that they were inferior to other cultures.
We are discussing the merits of inclusion, viv-a-vis the civ-3 game.
Pay attention!
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Or is it... guilt? Nah, couldn't be... but again, maybe. Yes, maybe because you are a descendant of those who exterminated 90% of the indigenous population of the Americas, and destroyed a dozen important (not interesting, dear, important) civilizations, that is why you trash them as "insignificant", so your scientific conscious should stay unharassed...
Typical responce of the foolish.
Attempt to paint someone you disagree with as a racist.
Add fool to your list of titles.
Quote:
Surely, you must be the one and only person on this earth with a masters in history, that supports such a stupid thesis.

Sorry if my vocabulary is kinda harsh, but I am really annoyed because of those copletely unscientific remarks of yours.
You just showed why your a poor historian.
Emotion and personal bias have no place in this kind of discussion.
My remarks are based totally in cold, hard logic, and deliberatly devoid of emotion, which has no place in a scientific discussion.

You believe I think what was done to the Indians wasn't a crime against humanity?
Count yourself a fool yet again in that case.

What I think is right and wrong morally has no place in this discussion, and I wish most of you would start to understand that.
It's clear that most of you don't, by the series of personal attacks which followed.

History is about facts, NOT emotion.
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Old October 5, 2001, 15:42   #109
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Chris,

History is about facts, NOT emotion. Very good one. It's a pity that so many people refuse to see it.

Talking about sigs, can you point me to the thread where Ming said that to Ras?
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Old October 5, 2001, 15:52   #110
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Originally posted by Chris 62
Modern European history, specifcally, 1900-1945, with 4 years of general studies in all fields.
Ah, that explains a lot.
You are comparing 20th century Europe to 16th century Amerinds.

Quote:
A people who didn't have the wheel, and practised human sacrifice?!!?
And don't forget the inquisition. No wait .... that was Spain & co ...

Quote:
My remarks are based totally in cold, hard logic, and deliberatly devoid of emotion, which has no place in a scientific discussion.
You could have fooled us. In fact you did!
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Old October 5, 2001, 15:58   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
And don't forget the inquisition. No wait .... that was Spain & co ...
exactly, "& co"
Goggle for a link of statistics with the number of witches burnt in Netherlands and Spain.
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:17   #112
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Originally posted by Waku

exactly, "& co"
Goggle for a link of statistics with the number of witches burnt in Netherlands and Spain.
Huh? There were no witch hunts in The Netherlands after they kicked out the Spanish, and very few before that time that actually ended in casualties. Did you somehow miss the last thread we had on the subject?
If you have new data, specify your source!
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:20   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
History is about facts, NOT emotion. Very good one. It's a pity that so many people refuse to see it.
Hopefully history is about conclusions upon and interpretations of facts otherwise it isn't worth more to know history than to know the bingo numbers of last week!

You probably agree, but don't forget it!
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:28   #114
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Someone here needs to read Henry Kamen's works on the Inquisition.... For the record, Henry Kamen is an English historian, one of the most reputed in the world regarding XV-XVII century European affairs...



Fiil,

I am not sure what you meant there, sorry. Conclusions and interpretations based on emotions are worthless. Only those based on objective facts are valid. That's exactly Chris' point. And I totally agree with him.
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:42   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
Someone here needs to read Henry Kamen's works on the Inquisition....
I wonder who
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:43   #116
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Seriously, Ribannah. Judge a civ on the following:

Technology
Architecture
Economics
Size
Military
Artistry
Social
Political

Tech, Architecture, Economics, Size and Military, the Spain of 1700 and the Iroquois Nations of 1700 are in different worlds (I set you up last time, but don't try to twist: Spain>Iroquois).

Now: Artistic, Social, Political

Politically, the Iroquois seem to be more advanced. Though not as democratic as, say, the English, they were more so than the Spanish Empire.

Socially, it's hard to compare. Given the disparate levels of the economies of both entities (one is highly developed and specialised, the other is subsistence-level), such terms as "equality", etc. become fairly meaningless. The Iroquois lived more equally than the Spanish did for the simple reason that their economic system couldn't support inequality.

Artistically is going to be the one where you and I probably disagree, but I'll step out on a limb and say that Spain had a more sophisticated and developed level of art than the Iroquois did. Either way, add up the score, and see what you get.
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:50   #117
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KH, please, not you too!!!
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Old October 5, 2001, 16:52   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
Chris,

History is about facts, NOT emotion. Very good one. It's a pity that so many people refuse to see it.

Talking about sigs, can you point me to the thread where Ming said that to Ras?
It is indeed about facts, so you should not be giving Chris these kudos. His posts are riddled with hyperbole, unsupported and unsubstantiated claims, exaggerations and untruths. And for not having any emotion, he sure is letting his anger show.

There is no need to employ bad history to refute the silly notion that the Spanish are insignificant as a civilization or the Iroquois are, at best, an advanced primitive culture. It actually undermines our point to do so.

Cheers.
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Old October 5, 2001, 17:14   #119
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I applaud Chris' brave stance. Sorry, I do not see any single untruth in what he wrote. I may agree he's exaggerating the tone quite a bit. I actually acknowledged that yesterday. But this is mainly a question of temper, unrelated to the real reasons that have motivated all this silliness.

On the other hand, a number of posters here merely post based on personal phobies, posting blatantly false crap, without caring a bit about whether they are hurting the feelings of other posters. You sure know what I'm talking about.

As for your last paragraph, you are absolutely right (again). Only one person seems to disagree.


PS. I do not think you were around when all this nonsense began. Please take a look at this thread. Long but interesting thread. The stuff that is immediately pertinent to this discussion starts on page 4.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=24157

Last edited by Jay Bee; October 5, 2001 at 17:23.
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Old October 5, 2001, 17:26   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
No, what I was attempting to point out (As Orange understood), was that they (the Iroquois) were not advanced at all, and in fact, had reached a "status-quo" as a society, but stopped growing and advancing as a people.
Other parts of the world have moved on, they had not.
You said "American indian culture is akin to Cro-Magon man" your exact words, not that they are closer to primative man than the highly cultred Iberians. So don't claim that we misread what you said. There is a big difference between the two statements.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
Stop making excuses for the Indians. They aern't the "noble savages" that they are now painted as in the modern era by the PC crowd.
Really, Benjamin Franklin would disagree with that statement, or was he just part of the PC crowd.
"The following is an excerpt from a longer piece written by Benjamin Franklin about 1784. Franklin clearly does not regard Native Americans as "savages": he is using the term for ironic effect. The "savages" are, in fact, as civilized or more civilized than the Whites: it is the Whites who must rely upon force, punishment, and prisons to enforce good behavior." - http://www.jmu.edu/madison/franklinnatamer.htm

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
I was pointing out, and quite correctly, that they are closer to primative man than the highly cultred Iberians, but this escaped you, you see my post not as history, but a bash against the poor red men.
Fool. Pay attention!
Maybe you should pay attention to your own words, "Perhaps they will tell you that American indian culture is akin to Cro-Magon man before the coming of Europeans". Once again, no mention of the Iberians.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
Assume, then jump from your assumption that it is now fact.
You think the Aztecs or the Maya equal the Europeans and Asians in culture and acchivment?!!?
A people who didn't have the wheel, and practised human sacrifice?!!?
I will agree with you on the Aztecs, but saying the Maya wasn't equal the Europeans and Asians in culture and achievment is wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
History is about facts, NOT emotion.
For a guy not using emotion you sure throw around alot of phrases like "People like you make me ill." and "Add fool to your list of titles.".
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