Who Should Have Been the French Leader?

[St Leo]

Who do you think should have led France in CivIII instead of Jeanne D'Arc?

[St Leo]

Crap, I forgot Richelieu.

[Kc7mxo]

Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry! Henry!

[jdd2007]

Napoleon-brilliant general overrated sometimes () but still brilliant...ALSO as well as being a good general he was a pretty good leader...

ANYONE but joan...

[squid]

who was not even a world leader.

Charlemagne did the most, of course the dictators like Napoleon get a lot of credit because he attempted to conquer but not control large areas and sort of got his tail kicked in a short period of time. His lasting impact was minimal.

[orange]

squid makes a good point But I still voted Napoleon. If not him, then Louis Louis.

[civcop]

I voted for Nappy for two reasons:
1. He's qualified for the position
2. At least you would view the French under him as having some bite.

Perhaps I am alone in this, but I tend to view the French as being less willing to fight than most other nations. I realize that they were once a world power (and still are, for that matter), but that was centuries ago and I wasn't alive then. So when I hear "French", I think of WWII. When I hear "Joan of Arc" I think of the Catholic Church's error. Seriously, when the leader of the pink civ appears on your screen demanding tribute (and she looks like a teenage girl minus the acne), will you be inclined to yield or feel threatened? DeGaulle is even a better choice than Joan, and Firaxis probably couldn't create a harald whose nose fit in the screen field.

[Imran Siddiqui]

His lasting impact was minimal.

Kidding, right?

His bringing of French Revolutionary ideas to the rest of Europe would later help the revolts against the Monarchs, and his conquests would lead to a reshaping of Europe after he was defeated.

[PGM]

I'm voting for Joan. Yeah, you heard me. I don't mind such a nice woman coming over to my office to negotiate.
EDIT:

[JellyDonut]

I can't believe you left out François Mitterrand!

P.S. I was the one who voted 'Other' because I would like to see either Mitterrand or moi as the French leader (oh sure, I haven't led France yet, but after my campaign for world domination is over, I will ), err, umm, go François!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

His lasting impact was minimal.

Kidding, right?

His bringing of French Revolutionary ideas to the rest of Europe would later help the revolts against the Monarchs, and his conquests would lead to a reshaping of Europe after he was defeated.

Thank you, you saved me from having to scream my head off.

Napoleon changed the world, no question about it. Europe and the world was forever changed. One can consider the Napoleonic Wars to be the precursor to pan-global conflict a la World Wars I and II. Certainly, he had a profound impact on French government and the legal system.

Unreservedy voted for Napoleon. Most recognizable French ruler, at any rate.

Cheers.

(What the heck IS up with Joan? She wasn't even a ruler, she was a military leader. Cha!)

[squid]

What I'm saying is that Napoleon's empire was basically the same ( in size ) before Napoleon came to power as when he left. As for the "great general thing", there is a reason the term "Napoleonic tactics" is used with scorn. There isn't any tactics in that.

Alexander, by comparision, was responsible for the spread of Greek culture throughout much of the East, several great libraries, etc, etc. He held his territory and people were assimilated by Greek culture

I'm just arguing against Napoleon because he is the popular choice. Not neccesarily the best. We are definitely neglecting
medieval European history.

Sure, the "Holy Roman Emporor" was neither Holy nor Roman, but that was a very interesting time...perhaps more so that Napoleon running around at random and then getting half his troops killed in Russia.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by squid
What I'm saying is that Napoleon's empire was basically the same ( in size ) before Napoleon came to power as when he left. As for the "great general thing", there is a reason the term "Napoleonic tactics" is used with scorn. There isn't any tactics in that.

Alexander, by comparision, was responsible for the spread of Greek culture throughout much of the East, several great libraries, etc, etc. He held his territory and people were assimilated by Greek culture

But the point isn't empire size, it's influence on the world. Napoleon's rule is indisputably the most influential part of French history following the Revolution. The Napoleonic Wars had a cataclysmic effect on Europe. And he was indeed a great general, because he won battles. Lots of them. They all had to team up against him to beat him.

Oh, and Alexander's empire collapsed right after his death. So much for territory gain. I wouldn't say "assimilated by Greek culture." Certainly, permeated by Hellenistic culture is more apt. There was a mingling, not a takeover. In many ways the Greeks in those areas became more exoticized than those cultures became Greek!

Cheers.

[Martinus]

In case you haven't noticed, Charles the Great IS Charlemagne

[Martinus]

Go Mila Jovovich!
Uhmm... I mean Joan of Arc.

Of course her impact was minimal if compared with Charlemagne, Louis XIV or Napoleon, but she looks so cute in this uniform

[Saint Marcus]

why does everyone pick boney? it would be something like putting Hitler as head of the Germans, Stalin as head of the Russians, Longshanks as head of the English, and Nero as head of the Romans.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Mark L
why does everyone pick boney? it would be something like putting Hitler as head of the Germans, Stalin as head of the Russians, Longshanks as head of the English, and Nero as head of the Romans.

Well, Civ I did have Stalin head of the Russians.

And Longshanks could hardly be considered the most influentual English king ever in anyone's reckoning.

Ditto Nero and Rome.

However...

Hitler was probably the most influential leader in German history, or any history! So if you just go by influence, yes, he'd be there. But Firaxis has to consider good taste, as he was a genocidal maniac. No one would be happy with his inclusion, except perhaps Neo-Nazis. And I don't put much stock in their opinions.

Napoleon was a megalomaniacal conquerer, yes. But genocidal and murdering? No. There is a strong case to be made that he was indeed the most important French leader in terms of world impact. He did not, however, propogate atrocities on a scale nearly as large as the men you lumped him with. He was a kinder, gentler kind of dictator.



I think, up to a certain degree, Firaxis shouldn't judge the leaders on whether they were good or bad people, but rather on how great their impact was on their society and beyond their society. That's why I think Joan is a poor choice. Along those lines, so is Cleopatra. I know it would severly curtail the number of women in the game, but I would pretty much replace them all. Peter The Great was certainly more influential a ruler than Catherine. Ramesses much more than Cleo. You can take your pick of the French rulers more influential than Joan - Napoleon, Louis XIV, Charlemange, etc. Elizabeth is pretty much the only of the female picks I agree with. This is not to say there were not some majorly influential female rulers, just that the civs they picked tend to represent vastly patriarchal cultures where the men had greater opportunities to lead.

[Saint Marcus]

Hitler was probably the most influential leader in German history, or any history! So if you just go by influence, yes, he'd be there. But Firaxis has to consider good taste, as he was a genocidal maniac.

So was boney.

Boney was in civ1 though, along with Stalin. Both examples of bad taste. But the PC Clopatra and Joan d'Arc are worse even. Civ2 did a good job of picking leaders at least.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Mark L


So was boney.

I disagree. How so? Napoleon's aim was never mass slaughter, especially of innocents. Yes, he directed bloody war campaigns. He did not direct and organized, deliberate mass murder of civilians. Comparing him to Hitler or Stalin is simply false.

[Dauphin]

Louis!

Else Naps.

[Martinus]

I am sorry, but why Napoleon was a genocidal maniac? I didn't hear about French concentration camps or gulags.

Yes, he waged wars, and he was megalomaniac, but so was Bismarck, Catherine the Great, Ceasar, Charlemagne, Louis XIV, Xerxes, Alexander or Shaka. (not too mention Mao, who qualifies as genocidal)

Practically speaking the only ones that were not megalomaniac were Ghandi, Hiawatha (although I don't know about him enough to be sure) and Lincoln.

[Saint Marcus]

He did not direct and organized, deliberate mass murder of civilians.

Yes he did. Granted, not foreign nationals, but certainly an incredible number of french royalists for no reason at all besides disagreeing with him. Same with Stalin.

[Saint Marcus]

Mao is a poor choice too I think.

Also, Napolean Bonaparte is considered to be the 1st Antichrist in Nostradamus works. Hitler is #2, #3 is yet to come.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Mark L

Yes he did. Granted, not foreign nationals, but certainly an incredible number of french royalists for no reason at all besides disagreeing with him. Same with Stalin.

Louis XIV or Charlemagne were not particularly kind for opposition either.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Mark L
Mao is a poor choice too I think.

I agree. There should have put one of the Emperors actually. After all, few thousands years of China history was imperial. Communism is just a small sideline in comparison.

Also, Napolean Bonaparte is considered to be the 1st Antichrist in Nostradamus works. Hitler is #2, #3 is yet to come.

I actually I do not consider Nostradamus a particularly reliable source on history matter. The fact the Earth did not fall to pieces under my feet about year ago has something to do with it, I fear

[Buck Birdseed]

But on the other hand you need a few Modern leaders. Gandhi and Mao seems like a decent combo...

For french leader, where's Asterix the Gaul?

Actually, if I didn't get Joan (who I picked), I'd take Robespièrre or Danton. Where are they?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Actually, if I didn't get Joan (who I picked), I'd take Robespièrre or Danton. Where are they?

Now, these were genocidal maniacs for sure. Good thing they did not last long.

[Saint Marcus]

Joan wasn't even a ruler!! She wasn't a queen or whatever. All she was was a glorified peasent girl who lead the french to some victories (and some defeats) and got burned at the stake in the end. She didn't rule the French, never did. She never ruled anything, so she shouldn't be a leader at all.

[Chris 62]

The Corsican usurper, of course.

Their can be no doubt. (But there is, from the terminally confused, see above ).

The Sun King would also be a good choice.

[KrazyHorse]

For the first time in a while, agreed with Chris.