Challenges

[KingTitus]

Ok, this forum string is for challenging pro creators to make a scenario. My first challenge for all you pros is to create a scenario where instead of working towards high tech, you work away from it. So you start with Fusion Power and work to Alphabet.
Using the same tech tree and same units, just reversing the times the come into play.

If you want this challenge or want to make a challenge for a pro, leave a post.

All of the "pros" are kinda busy doing stuff right now so don't expect us to do anything right away. How about just listing ideas here that might be incoperated into a scenario ratehr than just making a whole new one focusing on a particular aspect which doesn't have a viable storyline going with it.

I see where you're going with that, butin all practicality, I would just keep all my best units and put my research to nothing. Just wouldn't work right.

[KingTitus]

Okay, maybe my challenge sucks, but still.

Also pros dont have to accept, this is just for ideas

[Paul Hanson]

It`s funny that, I`d had the idea for that sort of scenario before; sort of like a world where time flows backwards, as in Red Dwarf (I know that most people on this forum are American, but some of you may know it. I don`t know how popular it is across there). But like Fast Eddie says, it would work on a human player, unless you could find some way of making the player do research. It`s tricky, but it could just work...

[valmont]

Would this work?:
Give the human player Leo's Workshop and Great Library and make them never expire. Then all his units will be downgraded automatically. To prevent the human player from just starting a war with the AI and then sacrificing the city that has the wonders, put an unbuildable 0-movement unit in the city with unbeatable defense.
[This message has been edited by valmont (edited September 13, 1999).]

[valmont]

Oops, I guess the human could just starve the city and disband it. Well, you could make it size 120 or so

[Stefan Härtel]

I'm doing this kinda stuff in my next scenario (sorry, no info , I'm only telling info by eMail to prevent that other people steal the stuff and make a scenario outta this before mine is already published. Selected info is put on a preview at Mr. Temba's, for the other stuff you'll have to wait until I send it out for playtesting).

Leo's wouldn't work! It's only upgrades units. The Great Library is a good idea, but I would disband the city, the twenty points aren't THAT important.

BTW, if terrain setting haven't been changed, either 40 or 41 is the most population points it can have.

[shamrock]

Fast Eddie-

At the risk of being argumentative, I think 46 may be the legitimate max for city size, I once achieved this by engineering the hell out of a city square to produce all grassland as well as 2 oasis and 2 wheat.

[valmont]

I thought Leo's replaced existing obsolete units with units of the same type that are available to build. I guess I'll have to test this.

Fast Eddie, yes, one would have to create a special terrain for the city square to support a city that size, and it would be a city with 20 workers and 100 specialists. But even a size 41 city would take a long time to starve and disband. And I don't see why you would want to. Why go to the trouble of playing a scenario whose premise you have no intention of upholding?

[Wulf]

Now if you lessened the tech cost and made say roadbuilding the last tech. Also add an "win"-event for this tech whenever a human player reaches it, a la Midgard.
Then make sure obsoletes are the reverse of the current ie Riflemen becomes obsolete with discovery of gunpowder etc.
But, how handle city improvements?
There should also be quite a number of paradoxes, ie on Deity the computer players should "drop" in tech faster than you and Leo's workshop will automatically downgrade units.
Will it work? Only one way to find out...

[valmont]

*chuckle* I'm starting to like this idea! It's silly, but there should be a way to make it work. How does the "win" event work? Is it just text that tells the player they've won?

The ideal handling of city improvements would be that they are automatically sold off when their obsolescence tech is discovered. I don't know whether this could be done by editing the game.txt. Also, it seems to me that the modern improvements like factories and power plants would have to be made very weak.

Riflemen would become obsolete with conscription. It's musketeers who would become obsolete with gunpowder. Does the AI disband its obsolete units? If not this could be a problem.

Also, even if Leo's can be used to "downgrade" (I still need to find out), then there is still a problem with the air units. Theoretically a stealth fighter should downgrade to a fighter, but then what? You'd have to create new air units so there will be something for those fighters to downgrade to.

City growth would be strange. You start with refrigeration and the capability to make farmland. Then when refrigeration is "discovered", that farmland needs to go -- can a changeterrain event accomplish this?

Some aspects of the game might need to be abandoned altogether -- for instance, the completion of the apollo wonder reveals the entire map. How to work this in reverse? Similar problem with nukes and Manhattan project wonder. And it doesn't make much sense for the pyramids, whose purpose is rapid growth, to be built at the end of the game. Hm, this would need some subtle planning. Maybe pyramids could be available with the refrigeration advance.

[This message has been edited by valmont (edited September 17, 1999).]

[Wulf]

"Everybody:
Leo's cannot downgrade!!!!!"

There you go, thinking linear again. You fail the challenge! :-)

No really, Leo's CAN "downgrade". When a unit becomes obsolete Leo's automatically replaces it with the new unit that becomes available.
The computer doesn't check to see if the new unit is "better". For instance the ships that can transport get converted to transports, despite that they loose attack factors. Actually I hate that.

Try the following.
Exchange the relevant lines in rules.txt with these:
Musketeers, Cst, 0, 1.,0, 3a,3d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 1,Alp, 000000000000000
Phalanx, Csc, 0, 1.,0, 1a,2d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 1, Cst, 000000000000000
Riflemen, Alp, 0, 1.,0, 5a,4d, 2h,1f, 4,0, 1, Bro, 000000000000000
Leonardo's Workshop, 1, 0, Bro,

Build some Riflemen or Musketeers. Build Leo's. Discover Alphabet and then Construction. Watch your army be "upgraded" to Musketeers and then Phalanxes. (Ok, I tried this and got Alphabet from start, but my Musketeers got upgraded to Phalanxes)

:-)

Been awile hasn't it?

Okay, answer time:

Valmont:

But even a size 41 city would take a long time to starve and disband.

Sorry, but it doesn't take that long to just hit shift+d.

Shamrock:

I think 46 may be the legitimate max for city size

Good for you! I've never thought about using those special terrain resources for city size. 41 is the limit for a city surrounded by grasslands.
BTW, being argumentitive is the only way to have any fun around here.

Everybody:
Leo's cannot downgrade!!!!!

[Wulf]

Addenda to the above. Backup your rules.txt, do I need to say that.

To Valmont:
>How does the "win" event work? Is it just text that tells the player they've won?

Yes, boring. But if there is no other incentive to do tech research....

[Wulf]

>1. How did you get the computer to recognize the tech that renders a unit obsolete instead of it's stats?

Check the lines. Ordinarily Phalanxes become obsolete with gunpowder and you can make musketeers instead. Just reversed it, but placed it in other techs to see effects faster ie BronzeW, Alpabet and construction.

>2. How do you think that would work over an entire game?
Have no idea, but I imagine you would have to watch obsoletion/buildability closely.

>Because if you've ever tried to play a game with Leo's never becoming obsolete, you'll find all you tanks become helicopters...
LOL! That is not supposed to happen, since tanks dont go obsolete with heli-tech (Combined Arms?)

>3. Show me the stats of a regular Rifleman so I can compare.
Check your own rules.txt. Its, the above except obsolete is nil and allowed is conscription.
>4. HA! Can't give Leo's to EVERY civ!
:-)
No, someone already said that, but if you reverse obsoleteness you could regress in units as you discover techs. That was my point. I just tried to invalidate your statement that Leo's cannot downgrade units. As I think I have shown, it is possible to fool the game engine. How good would it work? I dont know. Would it be fun? I dont know.

Methinks you are underestimating my knowlage of creating in civ...

Okay, your answer to my first question shows that you misunderstood me. What I meant was that Leo's doesn't judge by tech obsolesence but by statistical values. Although after I ran a few experiments, I kinda started to get confused.

=================================
Excuse me for any spelling errors, I'm in a hurry.

Experiment #1
Goal: To upgrade a Musketeer to a Rifleman.
Changes: The only stat I modified here was the tech that makes the Musketeer obsolete. I set that to "nil"
Result: The Musketeer was successfully changed into a rifleman.

Experiment #2
Goal: To downgrade a Rifleman to a Musketeer and then to downgrade a Musketeer to a Phalanx.
Changes: I modiefied the techs appropriatly, so that they came in this order:
Conscription--nil, no
Gunpwder--Conscription, no
Bronze Working--Gunpwder, no

I also changed the techs that made the Rifleman, the Musketeer, and the Phalanx obsolete:
Rifleman--Gunpowder
Musketeer--Bronze Working
Phalanx--nil
Result: The Rifleman and the Musketeer were both successfully downgraded to the desired unit.

(I though that was a bit strange, after the first experiment worked)

Experiment #3
Goal: To downgrade a Rifleman to a Musketeer and then to downgrade a Musketeer to a Phalanx.
Changes: I modiefied the techs appropriately, so that they came in this order:
Conscription--nil, no
Gunpwder--Conscription, no
Bronze Working--Gunpwder, no

With the units, I made it so that each never became obsolete.
Result: None of the units were downgraded to any other unit.

Conclusions:
1. Leo's will upgrade with an obsolete tech.
2. Leo's will upgrade without an obsolete tech.
3. Leo's will downgrade with an obsolete tech.
4. Leo's wil not downgrade without an obsolete tech.

Thoughts: I'm kinda confused now. But, with these conclusions, it's safe to assume that the values of a units stats will allow it to be upgraded by Leo's, but only a tech that makes a unit obsolete will allow it to be downgraded.

=================================

If anyone else would like to try an experiment, please do!

=================================
Wulf -

LOL! That is not supposed to happen, since tanks dont go obsolete with heli-tech (Combined Arms?)

According to my experiments, it is indeed possible.. Try it yourself.

:-)
No, someone already said that, but if you reverse obsoleteness you could regress in units as you discover techs.

That there was a last ditch effort to provide at least some humor into this conversation!. Perhaps a smily face would make it appear less hostile <----There's one.

=================================

And I've got some suggestions for a bit of a reward for going through the tech tree:

1. Rearange some of the techs peole have to begin with, and force them to reasearch farmland and railroads.
2. Change wonders so that the best are at the end of the tech tree.
3. Make it so that government are way down at the end of the tech tree so that a person with tanks would still be in a depotism.

=================================
More questions (Anybody could answer, though they may sound a bit rhetorical)

1. How many techs would a person start off with?
2. How many cities would the players start of with?
3. Could this have envents too? Or is it relgated to being as close to the game as possible?

=================================
Excuse my babbling, and the ammount of script this one post may make up....

Strange, that's not supposed to happen...

Question time:
1. How did you get the computer to recognize the tech that renders a unit obsolete instead of it's stats?
2. How do you think that would work over an entire game? Because if you've ever tried to play a game with Leo's never becoming obsolete, you'll find all you tanks become helicopters...
3. Show me the stats of a regular Rifleman so I can compare.
and lastly...
4. HA! Can't give Leo's to EVERY civ!

[Wulf]

Because if you've ever tried to play a game with Leo's never becoming obsolete, you'll find all you tanks become helicopters...

LOL! That is not supposed to happen, since tanks dont go obsolete with heli-tech (Combined Arms?)

According to my experiments, it is indeed possible.. Try it yourself.

Still LOL. I will, just for the laugh. :-)

quote (Wulf)

:-)
No, someone already said that, but if you reverse obsoleteness you could regress in units as you discover techs.

quote (Fast Eddie)

That there was a last ditch effort to provide at least some humor into this conversation!.
Perhaps a smily face would make it appear less hostile <----There's one.

Check my quote. :-) <- That is a smiley. I used one. How you get yours... I have no idea. ;-)
I have never tried to be hostile, even if I did point out that some points have been covered.
Thanks for your points, I will try some experimenting, and use your enlightening suggestions to help me.
I will even try a backwards tech scenario, but I doubt it will playable ie it will stay on my harddisk. Still it should be a fun experiment.
Oops, my scientists just forgot (discovered) writin....jfoxsdj hjfdfjasojoidasjjsds
:-)

<--- Computer: We have no connection with the country of Wulf, appearantly they have no computers --->

[Bill3000]

Check my quote. :-) <- That is a smiley. I used one. How you get yours... I have no idea. ;-)

--that's a smiley. Do i by typing : ) without the space. You didn't know that? **GASP**

[valmont]

Fast Eddie wrote:

=====
1. How many techs would a person start off with?

If I understand the idea, you'd start with knowledge of everything. The goal would be to "unlearn" all technology. Right?

2. How many cities would the players start of with?

Yeah, I wondered that too. Would the empire-building goal of Civ2 be subverted by the scenario-specific goal of unlearning technology? In a normal game, within the city the tendency is to accumulate improvements. Could this be made to run backwards, or would it be just one of those inconsistencies you have to live with? i think this is a much greater problem than the units problem. If you start out with farmland, railroads, engineers and factories you will have large cities soon enough, even if you start with none. As you lose tech, what happens to the cities?

[Ken Hinds]

If you start your cities with all possible Improvements just like your civ starts with all possible techs and if you can "unbuild" an improvement when the tech disappears, by whatever means works best, eventually your cities are going to revolt and possibly lose their population until they starve to death.

Assuming for the moment that we solve the Unit and improvement problems, what do we do for terrain improvements and wonders.

Also since it has been mentioned that some techs are to be researched are we going to start with all techs possible or just the most advanced and then work our way backwards so that the only techs we have available are Future Tech and any others that are terminal buds on a particular branch of the tree?

Ken

I don't think it's possible to "unlearn" technology. Then again I was wrong about leo's so I'm not so sure about anything anymore.

I think that perhaps the player should start out with all the units grouoed under one tech, then start to descend the tech tree so that the first civ that gets there wins.

All civs should start the normal way, but the faster you go, then the more advanced enemies are probably going to kill you. So I think that the challenge in this is that you have to maintain a moderate pace of advancement, so you will not be overrun.

=================================

Wulf -
What I meant was that I was the one sounding hostile. Sorry .

[valmont]

Well, you're right of course. When I said you'd start with everything I really meant you'd start with the most advanced tech. I didn't mean to suggest the game will let you start with every tech and then one by one eliminate techs. When I say "unlearn" I am just trying to express the concept that with the tech tree reversed, achieving an "advance" actually deprives you of the use of that technology (to build units, improvements, etc.). The computer will still think you are advancing technologically even though each advance diminishes your military (and presumably economic) potential. Since in a normal game all the previous techs are prerequisites to the advanced ones this game would start with, it would seem to the player as if he is "unlearning" the technology.

By the way -- yes, it's true you can't give Leo's to every Civ, but I'm banking on the assumption that the AI will disband its obsolete units. If my assumption is false, I guess you'd have to do some fancy editing to fool the AI into downgrading.
[This message has been edited by valmont (edited September 22, 1999).]

[KingTitus]

Well, I first started this and you all took it on. Cool. Now remember this place can also be used for your own ideas, not just mine.

And you would have it say that your civ "forgot" that advance. And you could setup a event that when ever a "new" tech was found it replaced the comps with the "new" unit.
(use a destroy tag, then a create tag)

Also on improvements, just make the current modern improvements worth less and the ancient ones worth more.

For the apollo program, they can build it at the start and see the map. But when they get the "new" tech to replace it. say: OH MY, YOUR CIV HAS LOST THE WORLD MAP!!

Maybe just going backwards is to general. How about a fundamentalist sorta thing where you trying to get back to the ways things were way back when.

I think it is also possible to edit the screen which says: ****** scientists discovered ********** to undiscovered.

-----------------------------------
face testing

B) <--- how do you do a face with glasses?
:b <--- sticking out it's tongue?


>( <--- a furious one?

testing over
-----------------------------------

------------------
Alien Infiltrate

[This message has been edited by Hodad (edited September 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Hodad (edited September 22, 1999).]

[KingTitus]

Well, this topic sure got big quick.

Okay, you wouldnt have to "unlearn" the techs. You could start everyone out with all techs then have them "forget" them as they went.

All so, in order to keep units going "down", you could make event tags that when you discovered the "newest" tech it would replace your units.

[KingTitus]

sorry about the second post, I forgot I had done the first.