Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Please gentlemen.... Can we have an end to the nationalist cheat thumping? If anyone is interested in a an impartial 3rd party view on the history of the balkans which contains several enlightening chapters on both Hungary and Rumania the pick up a copy of the book "Balkan Ghosts". I can't think of the author right now but you should be able to find it on a title such at Amazon. It did a truly great job at dealing impartially with a region known of ethnic seporatism and the rewriting of history to fit nationalist criteria. Cheers.

Due to heavy stealing from online comands, you can't order anything from Romania now. And I don't think I could aford it either. I apreciate very much ANY impartial point of view since both romanians and hungarians exagerate in their favor. Maybe you could give me some links. Please!

A funny thing, I just read today in a newspaper that if you order something online you should give the adress "Name, Adress, BUCHAREST, HUNGARY"

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Just look at the tone of his first post! Unfortunately with the situation, you can't expect anything more out of him or any "Romanian".

Any nation has good guys and bad guys. With a conception like this quoted it's clearly that we can't talk by reason.
I asked Victor Galis to put an end to this thread.
"Don't argue with a foul. People might don't see the diference (between you and him)"

[Victor Galis]

Very well... it is time I went to other concerns, like my school work (drat, procrastination scheme #24b failed... must find a new one)

[Boney]

After all this bickering and fighting, my post is on a lighter note.

I am not sure exactly, but didn't Laszlo Biro, who invented the ball point pen, come from Hungary. This must be one of the most, if not the most, widely used inventions of the 20th century. I think Mr Rubik was also Hungarian, please correct me if I am wrong.

Just leave me out of the arguments

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Boney
After all this bickering and fighting, my post is on a lighter note.

I am not sure exactly, but didn't Laszlo Biro, who invented the ball point pen, come from Hungary. This must be one of the most, if not the most, widely used inventions of the 20th century. I think Mr Rubik was also Hungarian, please correct me if I am wrong.

Just leave me out of the arguments

yes, and they invented vitamine C. tesla, who was a serbian, invented a bunch of things. and emil sioran was (IMHO) wrote the best self-therapeutical books ever so everyone's got one....

[OzzyKP]

Boy, that was an education for all of us.

I don't know what happened in the Poland thread, I just started this to try and show everyone the legitimate merits of Hungary, a country that i feel is very deserving and has made a significant mark on world history. It is a shame that with simple intentions like this Hungary was attacked and then defended vigorously which ended up loosing and forgetting the entire point of this thread.

I find it is a shame that people must always attack others. In the Civ3 General Forum some Multiplayers started threads complaining about Firaxis' decision to not release MP with the game. These were very legitimate worries and concerns but instead the SPers came to the thread and started attacking MP. Those threads too became flame wars.

If the Romanians on this list want to support their own heritage and culture by all means start a thread like this and promote whatever positives there are about Romania. I find it in bad taste to come and attack Hungarians in this thread however.

So hopefully the flame war is over for now and we can politely discuss the historical merits of the Magyar people. I unfortunatly am not an expert in the subject but Magyar Crusader seems to be better at that. So if anyone has some non-hostile questions on why exactly we think Hungary is deserving of this expansion pack please feel free to ask and discuss.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Boney
After all this bickering and fighting, my post is on a lighter note.

I am not sure exactly, but didn't Laszlo Biro, who invented the ball point pen, come from Hungary. This must be one of the most, if not the most, widely used inventions of the 20th century. I think Mr Rubik was also Hungarian, please correct me if I am wrong.

Just leave me out of the arguments

Yep, I can't believe I forgot to mention the Rubik's cube. Both Hungarian inventions in addition to many other contributions to the world. Thanks for the reminder.

[Luk]

Ohhh God!

Hungary was never superpower

In Middle Ages it was an average kingdom, and in XV century it fallen under Polish Kings control, and after 1532 it started to be controlled by Habsburgs. De facto from XV-XX Hungary never was independant country. Sad but true.

[MagyarCrusader]

Hungary was never superpower
In Middle Ages it was an average kingdom

During the 800s, Magyar cavalry devestated mainland Europe as far as southern France and Italy. The Hunyadis were able to halt Ottoman expansion in Europe for about 70 years, and conquered most of Austria including Vienna, capital of the largest European country at the time. I guess the term superpower is subjective and you could still say Hungary was never a superpower, but by similar logic you could say Germany was never a superpower since all three Reichs ended up being crushed, yet Germans are still in the game.

De facto from XV-XX Hungary never was independant country. Sad but true.

If I'm not mistaken, there are ancient civilizations included in the game that disappeared since BC times.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Boy, that was an education for all of us.

I don't know what happened in the Poland thread, I just started this to try and show everyone the legitimate merits of Hungary, a country that i feel is very deserving and has made a significant mark on world history. It is a shame that with simple intentions like this Hungary was attacked and then defended vigorously which ended up loosing and forgetting the entire point of this thread.

I read againg the begining of the thread and I have to say that you were fair. You prezented very calm the achievements of hungarians/Hungary

Originally posted by OzzyKP
If the Romanians on this list want to support their own heritage and culture by all means start a thread like this and promote whatever positives there are about Romania. I find it in bad taste to come and attack Hungarians in this thread however.

Unfortunatelly Romania wasn't that important in history to be in first 16 civ for Civ3.
However wasn't my intention to attack Hungary and I apologise if it looked that way. I just wanted to tempered you down. I don't like the expresion/idea of "we fight with turks while the Occident buld cathedrals" - no matter if is about hungarians or romanians. Both fought for their interests, not to keep the Occident free from turks. If we could convince turks to avoid us and go straight to them...

Originally posted by OzzyKP
So hopefully the flame war is over for now and we can politely discuss the historical merits of the Magyar people. I unfortunatly am not an expert in the subject but Magyar Crusader seems to be better at that. So if anyone has some non-hostile questions on why exactly we think Hungary is deserving of this expansion pack please feel free to ask and discuss.

I don't like flame wars. Unfortunately MagyarCrusader (who knows more history) is very biased and just LOVE to attack romanians/Romania.
Victor Galis is younger than me and he is lighting up easier, but not that much as MagyarCrusader (OK, now I might be biased ).
I would like very much if MagyarCrusader could show hungarians good parts without attackin Romania. It shouldn't be too hard - hungarians have their share of achievements.

[Victor Galis]

I delight in nationalist flame wars, when I am bored, and when I feel a worthy nation needs defending.

[MagyarCrusader]

I would like very much if MagyarCrusader could show hungarians good parts without attackin Romania.

I'll quote from my first post in this thread (btw, thanks for reading it).

I've got a good page for famous Hungarians:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat/famous.htm

The ones that would probably relate to civ3 most are the military and scientific ones:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat...andmilitary.htm
http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat...mathandtech.htm

I delight in nationalist flame wars, when I am bored, and when I feel a worthy nation needs defending.

Victor, you need a life. No healthy individual should delight in the world's problems. I certainly didn't enjoy our "debate".

[Luk]

In 800s Hungary was not the country but the group of barbarian nomads, who plundered everything which was able to plunder, thats all. And in 955 Otto kicked their asses near Lechowe Pole.

If you say about Hunyadi - the King of Hungary in XV century, then I must say that he was for a some time under control of Polish King Warnenczyk who died in 1444 near Warna, which is near Black Sea. Warnenczyk was Hungarian King (and Polish of course) who fought with Ottoman Empire. So Hungarians were never fighting alone with Muslims but with a help of Polish Kings, or Habsburgs (and with Polish, or Austrian regiments).

And now in XX Century Hungary, despite the fact that they are in NATO, nobody is interested in such a small country like Hungary.

[MagyarCrusader]

In 800s Hungary was not the country but the group of barbarian nomads, who plundered everything which was able to plunder, thats all.

1 word. Mongols.

nobody is interested in such a small country like Hungary.

You are thinking of Hungary today but in terms of civilization we look at history. Hungary during the middle ages was territorially larger than some of the civs that were included, but the size of the country doesn't matter, it's historical influence and contributions. Hungary had a vital role in eastern europe throughout the middle ages up until the end of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Maria Theresa the great Austrian Queen would not have even had her throne if it weren't a diet of Hungarian nobles that assembled in Pressburg agreed to offer her their help. (and in case people want to doubt historic facts again, I got that from a world history textbook here in america)

If you say about Hunyadi - the King of Hungary in XV century, then I must say that he was for a some time under control of Polish King Warnenczyk who died in 1444 near Warna, which is near Black Sea.

I think Luk is just pissed off that Matthias was able to conquer BRESLAU (for some reason the Polish didn't think this name was good enough so they changed it to Wroclaw, apparantly Luk's hometown) and defend it with 8,000 men against the Polish army of 80,000.

So Hungarians were never fighting alone with Muslims but with a help of Polish Kings, or Habsburgs (and with Polish, or Austrian regiments).

I read otherwise in an american military history magazine. (Actually it was the website). I've lost the bookmark but, I'm sure it's still available via search engines.

[Luk]

Hungary had a vital role in eastern europe throughout the middle ages up until the end of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

What a vital role? Hungary was all the time influenced by other superpowers, Jagiellonian (Polish) or Habsburgs.

I think Luk is just pissed off that Matthias was able to conquer BRESLAU (for some reason the Polish didn't think this name was good enough so they changed it to Wroclaw, apparantly Luk's hometown) and defend it with 8,000 men against the Polish army of 80,000.

What a Matthias....? Hungary did never conquer my beautiful city.
Second. Wroclaw name i correct, because Wroclaw was founded in 1000 by Poles, and in XIV century it fallen to Czechs, and then to Germans, and in XX century it backed to Poland. Germans changed it name to Breslau

[Leppersson]

Hey, men - stop it!!!
Polak, Wêgier dwa bratanki
What I remember Silesia was only temporary possessed by Hungarians and aquired from Czech. However Wroc³aw was probably founded by Czech Prince Vratislav.
Hungary indeed played a vital role during 1300s - 1400s centuries.
In1300s was bigger and more powerful than Poland, then not.
Polish Golden Age was from 1400s to middle 1600s.
There was Hungarian dynasty in Poland (Jadwiga - don't you remember?) and Polish i Hungary.
What such quarrel for?

[MagyarCrusader]

I don't know what's up with Luk, he must have had an incident. This guy is very funny. Check this out:

What a Matthias....? Hungary did never conquer my beautiful city.

Lets see what encyclopedia.com has to say about that. I typed in Matthias Corvinus and got this interesting article:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/08208.html
I'll quote from it:

Matthias Corvinus
Pronounced As: kôrvins , 1443?-1490, king of Hungary (1458-90) and Bohemia (1478-90), second son of John Hunyadi. He was elected king of Hungary on the death of Ladislaus V. Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III sought to contest the election but recognized him in 1462. Matthias won a reputation as a crusader against the Ottomans. He was persuaded by Pope Pius II to take up arms against George of Podebrad, king of Bohemia. Having conquered Moravia, Silesia, and Lusatia,

I only have one question for Luk. Can you read? Seriously, this guy must have had some incident with a Hungarian and is still pissed off about it. Why is he so determined to make everyone think Hungary is a pathetically oppressed country? And why does he take offense to the fact that Breslau was conquered in the 1400s? The Austrians conquered it, so did the Germans, and the Russians have moved through there before, so what's the big deal? Go read some history then go get a life!

[Victor Galis]

Odd... as our fight ends, others continue to argue with MagyarCrusader... does this suggest anything?

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Odd... as our fight ends, others continue to argue with MagyarCrusader... does this suggest anything?

That we can rest and watch calm how MagyarCrusader continue his crusade against anybody who could say anything bad against Hungary

[Luk]

Pronounced As: kôrvins , 1443?-1490, king of Hungary (1458-90) and Bohemia (1478-90), second son of John Hunyadi. He was elected king of Hungary on the death of Ladislaus V. Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III sought to contest the election but recognized him in 1462. Matthias won a reputation as a crusader against the Ottomans. He was persuaded by Pope Pius II to take up arms against George of Podebrad, king of Bohemia. Having conquered Moravia, Silesia, and Lusatia,

A, You say about Korwin... Yes, maybe He fought with Czechs king Jerzy from Poberad, and he maybe conquered Wroclaw fo a while, but Czechs and Hungary was a pathetic countries. And look for next chapter of your book. It should be written that after death of Korwin Polish king Wladyslaw Jagiellonczyk was elected to the king of Hungary, Korwin was too less powerfull to grant his dynasty rule in his country. And go back to 1440 - Polish king was on the throne of Hungary then, until 1444 when Warnenczyk died in a Battle near Warna. Hunyadi was then wassal of Polish King. Hungarians didnt have power to be independant so they offered in 1490 throne to Polish King.

What I remember Silesia was only temporary possessed by Hungarians and aquired from Czech. However Wroc³aw was probably founded by Czech Prince Vratislav

No, Wroclaw was founded by Poles in 1000 when Polish Prince Boleslaw I met with German Emperor Otto I. Wroclaw was named Vratislavia, but that name is Latin name, not Hungarian. Go back to school. I live in Wroclaw, and I read lot about my beautifull city

In1300s was bigger and more powerful than Poland, then not.

Hmmm... It is only because Pole was in the state of partition between Polish Princess, that is all. It was one time when Hungarian king ruled Poland only because Polish Dynasty of Piast died, and Noblemans had to choose someone from foreign countries, because there was no dynasty which was so powerfull to gain the throne. Hungary was not so powerfull to dominate Poland so they decided on Hungarian King, but it took only 12 years.

[MagyarCrusader]

Luk quit while you are ahead. You just keep repeating that Hungary is pathetic and Poland is great with no historic facts. Go find a job in your barren post commie country.

Odd... as our fight ends, others continue to argue with MagyarCrusader... does this suggest anything?

Suggests how ridiculous slavic revisionist history is. It's not my fault hate mongers come in here trying to start a war.

That we can rest and watch calm how MagyarCrusader continue his crusade against anybody who could say anything bad against Hungary

Actually I am not really upset with Luk right now. I can't respect any argument he makes because he really hasn't said anything that has merit. He posts his absurd view of history and I easily dispell it with facts and links. I guess its just more evidence to support my claim for the anti-Hungarian sentiment in eastern europe, and reason why Hungarians feel we most protect our kindred under the occupation of forein legions.

[Luk]

Come on... I post facts, dates, names, and you do not have arguments to beat mine

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
I guess its just more evidence to support my claim for the anti-Hungarian sentiment in eastern europe.

You can't be powerful and loved in the same time

[MagyarCrusader]

Yup Luk is off his rocker. I just read his comments in the Polish thread. He claimed Russia was an insignificant country and pretty much is nothing compared to the greatness of Poland. I understand that Russia has done many terrible things to the Poles, after all, Russia was pretty much done terrible things to everybody , but they certainly are significant and have great impacts on history.

Come on... I post facts, dates, names, and you do not have arguments to beat mine

You are right, I post no arguments. I only post links to published encylopedias and let them do the arguing for me.

You can't be powerful and loved in the same time

You are joking right? Historically, most people (aside from Luk's Poland owns the world attitude) would say Hungary had power in it's past, but since the fall of the Hapsburgs I'll be the first to admit it's power and influence have been extremely limited.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
You are joking right? Historically, most people (aside from Luk's Poland owns the world attitude) would say Hungary had power in it's past, but since the fall of the Hapsburgs I'll be the first to admit it's power and influence have been extremely limited.

Hate last longer than the things that caused it. Especially when the guilty part doesn't do anything to correct the past.
Before you jump up, this is valabile for everybody.

[MagyarCrusader]

Hate last longer than the things that caused it. Especially when the guilty part doesn't do anything to correct the past.

Yes that may be very true... But I suspect your underlying connotation.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Yes that may be very true... But I suspect your underlying connotation.

There are many nations who were enemy for centuries, but they managed to settle down and became (almost) friends. France and Germany. France and Britain. Britain and USA. They realize that at same point they have more to gain if they cooperate than if they keep fighting.

Unfortunately Romania and Hungary have a long way. IMO the everlasting barier against friendly relations are the fanatics nationalist and I am afraid that you are the reprezentant for the hungarian part. As I am concerned, I do my best to be patriotic without being a fanatic.

[MagyarCrusader]

Unfortunately Romania and Hungary have a long way. IMO the everlasting barier against friendly relations are the fanatics nationalist and I am afraid that you are the reprezentant for the hungarian part. As I am concerned, I do my best to be patriotic without being a fanatic.

I'm sure the Dak-Romanian theory doesn't help either, and having a mayor like Funar of Kolozsvár doesn't either.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
I'm sure the Dak-Romanian theory doesn't help either

It helps as much as Roessler (sp?) theroy

and having a mayor like Funar of Kolozsvár doesn't either.

It would be a sigh of good will if you write Kolozsvár/Cluj.
Don't assume that I know magyar

[VetLegion]

jesus, I wanted to argue some with you inflated hungarians, but the sheer amount of stuff... I dont have time for that. I ll leave it to Mihai to bring you down to earth.

just few points:

1. As LaRusso pointed out, fighting the turks was an effort on entire balkans, this 'hungaria did it alone' is as dumb as 'poland did it alone' or any other

2. hungary and croatia have a lot of history together, so it is not easy to say some persons are distinctively croatian or hungarian


and Mihai, I have acidentaly found the book 'Balkan Ghosts' on the internet. In my opinion, the book is pure 100% emotianal, unprofessinal, rubbish but if you want it I can mail it to you. I havent read it all, just a few chapters (enough, believe me, guy who wrote it is amateur) but from I understand it is mostly concentrated on rumania and bulgaria so you may want it.