Fears for Civ3.....

Shadowstrike · October 7, 2001, 16:43

When I recently read that Firaxis is cutting a scripting language too, my worst fears for this game are starting to haunt me. Will we actually get a game that has a solid scenario editing capability, or will we get rules.txt repacaged and missing a couple dozen components? Will we have a game with great replayability, a lack of bugs, and everything we thuoght shuold be in? Or will we get SMAX with new graphics, sans SE? Discuss.

Akron · October 7, 2001, 16:47

Just trust firaxis.

They've added so many great new features, so why worry about the few things they didn't include?

Crouchback · October 7, 2001, 16:52

My greatest fear about Civ3, the nightmare that wakes me screaming from my sleep at night, is that it won't finally stop people opening another complaints thread.

No, I can't take anymore... That is it... From now on I'm boycotting all these whine threads unless they are blessed by Saint Dan himself.

David

dainbramaged13 · October 7, 2001, 16:59

they didn't "cut" a scripting language, there never WAS one. There will be comprehensive editors, as evidenced by many posts by Dan here and on 'Ask the Civ Team.' If there one thing that you really shouldn't worry about, its the editors.

HalfLotus · October 7, 2001, 17:08

Quote:

Originally posted by dainbramaged13
they didn't "cut" a scripting language, there never WAS one. There will be comprehensive editors, as evidenced by many posts by Dan here and on 'Ask the Civ Team.' If there one thing that you really shouldn't worry about, its the editors.

Hear, hear. Shadow, you should read the many posts and news items regarding the editor. It should be one of the many strenghts of Civ3.

Ralf · October 7, 2001, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
When I recently read that Firaxis is cutting a scripting language too, my worst fears for this game are starting to haunt me.

Scripting language is not for everyone. Its better that they make scenario-building more accessible for the masses with help of faster and more userfriendly editor-screens. If I have understand it correctly, they also gonna replace that old Rules.txt file with a multi-tabbed interface editor-screen, but Im not sure. One should however also be able to setup all kinds of trigger-events, of course.

Wexu · October 7, 2001, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowstrike
When I recently read that Firaxis is cutting a scripting language too, my worst fears for this game are starting to haunt me. Will we actually get a game that has a solid scenario editing capability, or will we get rules.txt repacaged and missing a couple dozen components? Will we have a game with great replayability, a lack of bugs, and everything we thuoght shuold be in? Or will we get SMAX with new graphics, sans SE? Discuss.

I'm really getting tired with whining posts like this. "They cut the scripting language!", what the hell? There wasn't coming any scripting language in the first place. Could you just wait till the game is released and try it and THEN whine if there's something to whine about. This is getting really ridicilous.

*Tries to calm down...*

Tjoepie · October 7, 2001, 17:39

I fully agree with Wexu and other poeple who are tired of all the negativity about civ3!

Please give Firaxis a chance before anyone of us even played the game!

Sure it will not be perfect, but what is?
I'm sure patches will follow to better the game after it's released, and I hope they will not make the same mistake as Activision did with CTP2 if they want a faithfull public for their games in the future. ( but I'm quite sure they won't make this mistake!)

Shadowstrike · October 7, 2001, 17:50

So correct me if I'm wrong, but they have (supposedly) improved the editor so that it will be many tiem better then Civ2, yet slash an event language, the centerstone of scenario building? That's lke trying to build a house without a foundation!

And I believe all of you who say mearly "trust in Firaxis" are mearly parroting someone else's words. Considering the focus they put in scenario editing,I sincerely hope that an event language is included. I don't care if they package the ToT one, just that without it, scenario creation will probably never take off at all.

I have always been one of the folks in here who have taken a positive outlook on Civ3. We're mearly giving output on what our perception of the product will be. Without this sort of creative critism, how the heck will Firaxis know what the masses want?

BTW, there was an event language in FW, MPG and ToT. You cannot say that there was no scripting language in the first place and it wasn't cut. If it isn't it, it has been cut since the last version of Civ2!

Finally, for those of you who say that a event language isn't for everyone, why should you cripple those who truely want to make scenarios because other people can't understand it? By that same reasoning, we shouldn't be on computers, or have anything to dowith electricity, or even civiliation for that matter.

Wexu · October 7, 2001, 18:08

OK, I understood what you meant with "scripting language" little wrong. I thought you meant this AI "language" (which there has been some talk here), with it people could do better AI to the game that can beat players' new best tactics.

But you were talking about some sort of scenario event language. Right? I didn't know there was that kind of thing in ToT, FW and MPG, because I haven't owned any of those. So, I must admit it is a bit stupid to leave it out of Civ3 then.

BUT then again, I haven't played any Civ's any scenario (I've tried couple, though), because I don't like them. My opinion is that Civs aren't meant for scenario playing. They are much more fun when played "normally". I know there are people who disagree with me.

And whining at this part of Civ3's development (game is going gold soon, at least I hope so) is rather pointless, they won't add any new (bigger) things to the game, they are now just polishing it up. So everyone, let's just wait and play it when it comes and then bomb Firaxis with whine-letters if there's need for that. OK?

korn469 · October 7, 2001, 18:31

well hopefully firaxis has something like the event trigger from StarCraft, something that is both easy to use and powerful

civcop · October 7, 2001, 18:49

My fear is that the grumblers will find much to complain about with Civ 3 and Firaxis (or some other company) will not only listen to this group but incorporate every single design idea they put forth for Civ 4, which they will rush to develop and get to the store shelves to calm the savage beasts.

Due to incorporating the ideas of the zealots, Civ 4 will cost $150, require an as yet not made computer processor and 10GB of hard drive space, along with 200 megs or RAM just to install. When the zealots are able to play the game, they will then end up complaining that it is too difficult to play, unrealistic, sterile and boring. They will rage that the AI is too sophisticated and does not account for human error, thus they cannot beat it. They will sound like Kasparov upon losing to Deep Blue. They then begin filling the Apolyton Civ 4 boards up with complaints and demand that one of the team, who posts there now and then out of kindness, listen to their complaints and incorporate their ideas into Civ 5. Notice the circle forming to completion?

Shadowstrike · October 7, 2001, 20:01

The only time that will happen is when we start sneding regular pizza shipments to Hunt Valley. And I think we're broke.

But knowing Firaxis, they won't put too much in, rather prefering to err on too little then too much. Caution has been the keyword for them in each sequel, with only a few major new improvements. The fear here is not too much, but rather too little.

tniem · October 8, 2001, 00:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Akron
Just trust firaxis.

For some reason whenever someone says that I do the opposite. It is like children saying trust mama she will give you whats best. Well I have been screwed by gaming companies and other groups long enough to know not to just trust a company. I think Sid and Firaxis are one of the best groups of designers around and Civ III probably will be good but just to have this blind trust is absolutely ridiculous.

fanatic civver · October 8, 2001, 01:10

>just to have this blind trust is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree. I had blind trust for Lionhead for Black and White, which ended up being a very mediocre game after all the promises.

However I have confidence that civ 3 will be a lot better than B&W simply because theyre basically just improving on civ 2.

Christantine The Great · October 8, 2001, 01:18

Why would you need a language if the editor (supposedly) does it all for you?

October 8, 2001, 01:30

Quote:

Why would you need a language if the editor (supposedly) does it all for you?

Hey slick, take a look at SLIC - the scripting language for CTP2. How would you build an editior that could do all that? Answer - you can't. Editors are dandy, but a scripting language is a must for the hardcore modder.

Christantine The Great · October 8, 2001, 01:40

Quote:

Hey slick, take a look at SLIC - the scripting language for CTP2. How would you build an editior that could do all that? Answer - you can't. Editors are dandy, but a scripting language is a must for the hardcore modder.

I don't have CtP2 so that went right over my head. Wasn't the thinga-ma-bob only for events in CivII, anyway? Is it that important to create something so (what I've seen) simple with a programming language?

splangy · October 8, 2001, 01:41

DP

splangy · October 8, 2001, 01:41

If SLIC can be put in easily or is already in I say Good!

If its tedius to create and will delay the game I say Bad!

I hope the game turns out great, I have yet to hear ANYTHING bad, (MP is stupid, I like the graphics, and all the confirmed features look great

) and I will buy it a day or two after it comes out. If you dont think you'll buy it, then why are you here?
I also am befuddled why people seem to bash a game they've never played, people like yin(remember his infamous pessimist club?) are just trying to stir up trouble and make themselves the center of the attention...

My $0.02

October 8, 2001, 03:05

CtG -
SLIC allowed all sorts of things. At its most basic level (about the level at which I mastered it) it allows you to add events. But it could do so much more because it allowed the definition of variables and arrays, functions, and so on. You could use SLIC as a workaround to add new wonder and building functions. The MedMod team added in elite units (like UUs in civ3 but went to nations randomly - when citizenship was discovered there was a one in six chance you also discovered how to build the Legion unit - instead of Rome always having it). Dale also wrote a routine that told the AI to land their ****ing planes before they ran out of fuel and crashed. In short SLIC could allow you to create alomst a whole new game if you wanted. Now given that Civ3 will be better out of the box than CTP, the addition of a scripting language would blow absolutely everything out of the water. Especially if the talents of Locutus and Dale were applied.

Quote:

I hope the game turns out great, I have yet to hear ANYTHING bad, (MP is stupid, I like the graphics, and all the confirmed features look great ) and I will buy it a day or two after it comes out. If you dont think you'll buy it, then why are you here?

Everyone hopes the game turns out great. The confirmed features do look great. I think the game will be good, and I'll buy a copy the day it comes out. The day after, I will set about redoing the leader art. And Splangy, the leaders look goofy. Are you into goofy looking? All of the art looks fantastic except those hanna-barbarra looking heads. You have no taste, Splangy.

Sarxis · October 8, 2001, 03:56

Ooga booga!

Oogadey boogadey!

Rip Van and Raisin Snax!!

SCREECH!@!

Look, this isn't the next religion, it's CIV. I don't remember any of the Sid Meier CIV releases having a scripting language anyhow.

Or did they? [And anyone who says CTP will be promtply fed to my pet turtle]

October 8, 2001, 04:30

Quote:

I don't remember any of the Sid Meier CIV releases having a scripting language anyhow.

So? What Sid's too good to add innovations to his games? Besides, all these people complaining that Civ3 doesn't meet their specs could probably get the game that much closer with a powerful enough scripting language.

What? CTP wasn't a Sid game?

Sarxis · October 8, 2001, 04:35

The only thing though is that Apolyton represents about 2% of the total CIV playing population. And of that 2%, only about .5% of them want a scripting language.

[Figures taken from the 2001 CIV fanatic census]

Gangerolf · October 8, 2001, 09:07

My greatest fear is that I'll be totally addicted and ruin my life.

Akron · October 8, 2001, 09:12

Quote:

Originally posted by tniem

For some reason whenever someone says that I do the opposite. It is like children saying trust mama she will give you whats best. Well I have been screwed by gaming companies and other groups long enough to know not to just trust a company. I think Sid and Firaxis are one of the best groups of designers around and Civ III probably will be good but just to have this blind trust is absolutely ridiculous.

I meant trust them since so far they have done a great job with the rest of the stuff in the game.

I am far from advocating blind devotion.

Sarxis · October 8, 2001, 09:12

G, your fears SHALL be realised!!

[mine too]

tniem · October 8, 2001, 11:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Akron
I meant trust them since so far they have done a great job with the rest of the stuff in the game.

Actually we have absolutely no idea how they have done with the rest of the game. None what so ever. Sure the graphics look crisp and clean but not great. Roads are still just painted on forests. We should expect more in 2001. And that is really the only thing we have been shown - graphics.

That and some history and it seems every civ that is released there has been a thread where people have said Firaxis got this wrong. The civ really did this, etc.

So all we can go on are graphics and what they have told us which is filtered through a Firaxis PR person and Infogrames. Since there will be no demo, we cannot even take a look at the AI or how the game feels before the purchase date. While I hope Civ III to be great and believe it will be good, there is no way that I can at this point honestly believe that Firaxis has done a great job so far (although I want to believe this so that the game is really good) based on what has been told to me. Sure when the game is released maybe I will find myself satisfied but without MP and who knows what else, I find myself fearing for the worst.

Jason Beaudoin · October 8, 2001, 11:52

My greatest fear about CIV 3 is that the game will get bogged down in micromanagement in the later stages of the game. I really hope they've come up with good solutions to that problem.

SteveJH · October 8, 2001, 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin
My greatest fear about CIV 3 is that the game will get bogged down in micromanagement in the later stages of the game. I really hope they've come up with good solutions to that problem.

The supposedly "smart" AI of the govenors is suppose to help with this.