Expansion Pack Civs (Part 4): A never-ending story?

[jasev]

Originally posted by siredgar
Anyone who doesn't include the Spanish on their expansion wish list should have their list invalidated in my opinion. It just shows they are completely illogical.

This guy is really clever...

[wervdon]

Vikings 20 (id give em a 40 if I could :P)
Spain 20
Incans 20
Mayans 20
Mongols 20
Portugal 10
Korea 10
Holland 5
Apache 5
Navajo 5
Cherokee 5

[JayKay]

Originally posted by siredgar
Anyone who doesn't include the Spanish on their expansion wish list should have their list invalidated in my opinion. It just shows they are completely illogical.

****The expansion pack MUST have the following: Spanish, Mongols, Vikings, and Koreans.

A rule should be that if most people have never heard of them, they shouldn't be included! For example, I don't think you should put the Hittites and Khmer ahead of any of these four. I know that many of you Apolyton freaks know of these civilizations very well, but trust me they'll never make it to the expansion pack, so save your time!

Humbly yours,

Sir Edgar

I agree with the first three civilizations, but i think the Portuguese and the Celts are far more important than the Koreans.

Why do you put them (Koreans) with such high importance?
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Estilpón]

Of course.

(Sir Edgar, Jasev and JayKay)

[Locutus]

I posted a new and last update to this poll (up to wervdon, 277 votes, 38267 points). If you want to know why I will no longer update the ranking in the future, please read this thread. If anyone else wants to take over as 'moderator' for this poll, feel free to do so, the Excel file with all the data is at my website (because Excel can apparently only have 256 columns I was forced to change the layout fairly drastically but it can easily handle another 200 votes now). If not, too bad but no real problem as the top 20 was pretty much settled anyway (still some civs swapping places every now and then but no real changes)...

sachmo71,
You gave a total of 170 points. Because 160 is the max, I gave the Spanish 10 points less to make your vote count anyway.

Trifna,
You made a tiny error in updating your vote: you gave the Khmer 3 extra points for a total of 16. According to my data +3 gives them a total of 17 points. Because with the 3 extra points you used exactly 160 points I gave the Khmer 17 points rather than 16 (I know, I'm nitpicking ).

[siredgar]

Originally posted by JayKay


I agree with the first three civilizations, but i think the Portuguese and the Celts are far more important than the Koreans.

Why do you put them (Koreans) with such high importance?
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

I placed the following order, in priority:
1. Spanish
2. Vikings
3. Mongols
4. Koreans
5. Turks
6. Portuguese
7. Dutch
8. Indo-Malays

While I recognize the greater territorial power of the Portuguese and their tremendous influence around the globe, I place the Koreans ahead of them to add diversity to the game and they have a truly unique unit, the turtleboat (see Age of Empires II's expansion pack). But really you should go to Yin's thread for more information (that's if you can handle all of it)!

Here is my previous posting on this thread:

A lot of you are voting for the Arabs, but that seems like a wasted vote to me. There are already TWO Arab civilizations in Civ III. If you really want to play the Arabs, go select the Babylonians or Egyptians and modify the city names, etc. Same goes for those who want the Italians in-- go pick the Romans and make your modifications!

By the way, I think it's ridiculous that Civ III came with three Middle Eastern civilizations (Babylonians, Egyptians, and Persians) when they dropped the Vikings, Mongols, and Spanish.

Also, why did they include TWO native American civilizations? The Aztecs are acceptable, but they should have dropped the Iroquois and put the Spanish in instead. After all, what did the Iroquois really achieve besides getting wiped out by the Americans? As for the Incas, do you really need them if you have the Aztecs?

Even so, keep two things in mind-- diversity and relevance.

As for my voting, I cast it this way:

EUROPEAN:
Spanish 20
Vikings 20
Portuguese 20
Dutch 20

ASIAN:
Mongols 20
Koreans 20
Turks 20
Indo-Malays 20

Here's my reasoning for each one...

Spanish:
They colonized most of the New World, parts of Africa and Asia, and even ruled the Portuguese for a while. You've got the Conquistadors such as the ruthless Cortez and their great explorers. Spain was one of the great global powers and it is still a major country today. They also have a strong CULTURAL influence around the world. The Spanish deserved to be included in the original 16 civilizations group more than even the Germans or the Japanese because of this. They’re also a good substitute for people who want to play Latin American countries like Argentina for example.

Vikings:
While not much of a “civilization”, they terrorized much of Europe and even journeyed to parts of the New World before any other Europeans. They are also the ancestors of many Scandinavians who occupy five different countries in Europe. Anyhow, I know that there A LOT of Civ III players in Sweden!

Portuguese:
Not as powerful as the Spanish, but they still took over Brazil and parts of Africa and Asia. Portugal has had a significant cultural impact on many parts of the globe. Portugal was also a major power for a while and still exists today. Brazilian players can use them as a good substitution.

Dutch:
A commercial empire built on trade routes to the Indies, they controlled Indonesia and parts of the Caribbean. The Netherlands is still a potent economic force, despite its small size.

Mongols:
Just given the fact that they seized more territory than any other civilization at any point in history makes them a must. They defeated the mighty Chinese and even threatened to overtake Europe.

Koreans:
Often overlooked in history, the Koreans fought many wars against Chinese tribes to control territory the size of Western Europe. They invented the moveable print at least 200 years before the Europeans. In addition, they were the first to use an iron-clad vessel in battle (see Age of Empires II expansion pack-- the Turtle Boat, a great unit to play with). They have re-emerged as an economic and military power, despite being surrounded by major powers Russia, China, and Japan.

Turks:
The Ottoman Empire spanned across the Middle East and even large parts of Europe. Their descendants are now scattered all over Central Asia. They were also included in Age of Empires II. Furthermore, ancient Troy was located in today’s Turkey.

Indo-Malays:
They are scattered all over Southeast Asia (primarily Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines) and even as far away as Africa’s largest island-country Madagascar. Also, this will be good for our friends in that part of the world and we need another Asian civilization anyhow. People who wanted to play the Thai, Khmer, or Vietnamese could replace the city names, etc.

I feel most strongly about the Vikings, Mongols, Spanish, and Koreans. The others would be good, but not essential for any expansion pack.

Other civilizations that I think deserve mention are:
Assyrians, Austro-Hungarians, Carthaginians, and Celts.

Most of the other suggestions overlap or are just too small.

Tell me what you think!

[jasev]

Well, we finally won

I'd prefer the byzantines in the top16, but the world is not perfect.

[Shaka Naldur]

what the hell is Khmer????

[ranskaldan]

The Khmer? They are the ones who maintained a 600-year long empire in Cambodia and much of Indochina. They built roads, reservoirs, and the temples at Angkor Wat.

[ranskaldan]

oh great, here we go again, the arab/babylonia overlap debate.

siredgar, i suggest that you take a look at this thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=30518. this was a long debate between bisonbison and some others (including me) about whether the arabs are babylonians. just skip over the parallel debate abount the spanish and aztecs.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
oh great, here we go again, the arab/babylonia overlap debate.

siredgar, i suggest that you take a look at this thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=30518. this was a long debate between bisonbison and some others (including me) about whether the arabs are babylonians. just skip over the parallel debate abount the spanish and aztecs.

I've read much of that thread, but the question is:

Are you saying that adding the Arabs takes precedence over adding the Spanish, Vikings, Mongols, Koreans, Portuguese, Dutch, Turks, and Indo-Malays (or Khmer, whatever)?

I don't think so, but please feel free to convince me otherwise.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by siredgar

Koreans:
Often overlooked in history, the Koreans fought many wars against Chinese tribes to control territory the size of Western Europe. They invented the moveable print at least 200 years before the Europeans. In addition, they were the first to use an iron-clad vessel in battle (see Age of Empires II expansion pack-- the Turtle Boat, a great unit to play with). They have re-emerged as an economic and military power, despite being surrounded by major powers Russia, China, and Japan.

Tell me what you think!

Yes...i already knew that! An Ironclad in early ages would be cool! But i thought that you had more reasons besides that!

But i still don't think they had a significant impact in the World history, nor there culture is very far reaching, so i really can't agree with you in putting them on the top 4! Even because your diversity reason has no logic since you are including the Mongols, so that would mean a lot of civs starting near the same place (Chinese, Mongols, Indians, Koreans and Japanese - aldo this last one would need boats, but since Japan isn't that big, the expansion over seas would be a question of researching as soon as possible the Map Making)!

But if you have something more to add, just do it!

BTW, i'm going to see that thread you mentioned about the Koreans!;
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[ssims]

Arabs 20
Spanish 10
Turks 20
Polynesians 20
Mongols 10
Inca 10
Vikings 10
Phoenicians 10
Hebrew 10
Ethiopians 15
Koreans 10
Mali 15

[jasev]

Sorry, ssims, the votations are over.

[siredgar]

Please check out Yin's thread!

I've always been a supporter of underdogs and Korea has long been overlooked despite its impressive achievements during the 15th and 16th centuries: world's first moveable print and ironclad, as well as accomplishments in language, literature, and the arts.

Most people think of it in terms of the 19th and 20th centuries: when it was declining.

As for influence, I agree with you: Korea did not have a global impact, even with its inventions. But just because a Civ discovers an invention does not mean it has to share it with others! =) It is still significant nevertheless.

In terms of playing on a real world map, if we already have England, France, Germany, Rome, and Russia in Europe and plan on adding Spain, Portugal, Holland, Scandinavia, and Turkey, then why can't we add Mongolia, Korea, and Khmer to China, Japan, and India in Asia? After all, Europe is how many times smaller than Asia?

For a while Korea was heavily competing with China for territory and at one point controlled an area nearly the size of Western Europe. In fact, when the Chinese Sui Dynasty emperor Yang Ti mobilized over one million soldiers and sent about one-third to Koguryo's capital Pyongyang, only three thousand survived to retreat to China. The Sui Dynasty's defeat immediately led to its collapse. The newly risen Tang Dynasty's emperor Tai Tsung launched another huge invasion, but that failed too.

So, Korea did have an important impact, especially with the almighty China.

Regardless, the Civilization game series is all about "what if". What if Korea maintained its large territory? What if it continued to invent and what if it spread its knowledge abroad?

Anyhow, continuing the discussion about space, even today's smaller Korea is still larger than the Netherlands (more than five times) or Portugal (more than two times). Its economy is also significantly larger and its standard of living is comparable to these two countries (the Netherlands is higher, while I believe Portugal is lower). But really Korea's candidacy for the expansion pack is primarily based on its pre-17th century history.

[Jay Bee]

...and, let's not forget, Korea is hosting the World Cup!

[ranskaldan]

Are you saying that adding the Arabs takes precedence over adding the Spanish, Vikings, Mongols, Koreans, Portuguese, Dutch, Turks, and Indo-Malays (or Khmer, whatever)?

of course!! without a shred of doubt, I'd place the Arabs over all of the civs you've named, except the Spanish maybe.

In fact, I think that the Arabs are about as important and deserving as the Romans, Chinese, or Egyptians. Now no one, I believe, doubts that there should be these three civs in any civ game.

The Arab contribution to human civilization is as great as the Roman or Chinese contribution.

For the 'overlapping' argument and why it doesn't work in this case, please see http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=30518.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by siredgar
Also, why did they include TWO native American civilizations? The Aztecs are acceptable, but they should have dropped the Iroquois and put the Spanish in instead. After all, what did the Iroquois really achieve besides getting wiped out by the Americans?

For your information, the Iroquois are still alive and kicking, with their own governments. Their main achievements before European contact were agricultural, social and political. Trading knowledge as well as goods with the Europeans led the Iroquois into their Golden Age, hand-in-hand with their natural allies the Dutch.
In 1680 their empire reached its maximum size and until the American Revolution, when the confederacy fell apart with Iroquois fighting on both sides, they remained a superpower in their part of the world. The individual tribes did not decline, there are more Iroquois around today than in 1680, but the sheer number of immigrants to the USA turned them into small minorities.

As for the Incas, do you really need them if you have the Aztecs?

Depends on your definition of Incas. The Inca empire was simply a new dynasty in pretty much the same area ruling the same peoples as before since Tiahuanica, much like Egypt and China, so if you include the earlier kingdoms they clearly surpass the Aztecs IMHO. But the Mayas are still my number 1 choice south of the USA.

Indo-Malays:

Good choice. A more common name would be Polynesians though.

[mfauzi]

About the indo-malays. Take note that for hundreds of years (maybe a thousand), the Malayans and Javanese went down their own cultural path. In these times, they have more or less existed in their own countries, Malaysia and Indonesia, with the Javanese dominating over the other cultures within Indonesia. Malaysia though is largely Malayans and Chinese, with some indegineous tribes and Indians (west indians from the Indians subcontinent) as minorities

Oh yeah, and these are separate from the indo-chinese which consists of Thais (or siamese), burmese, Khmer, viet.

Of course, you can't get all these people in or you might as well make a South East Asia Mod or scenario for them

[JayKay]

Originally posted by siredgar
Please check out Yin's thread!

I've always been a supporter of underdogs and Korea has long been overlooked despite its impressive achievements during the 15th and 16th centuries: world's first moveable print and ironclad, as well as accomplishments in language, literature, and the arts.

As i said i already knew that, but i don't think they made a best use out of them! (but i really don't know much of their history, only their acomplishments - but i'll take a look to that thread)

Originally posted by siredgar
In terms of playing on a real world map, if we already have England, France, Germany, Rome, and Russia in Europe and plan on adding Spain, Portugal, Holland, Scandinavia, and Turkey, then why can't we add Mongolia, Korea, and Khmer to China, Japan, and India in Asia? After all, Europe is how many times smaller than Asia?

Hmmm...you do have a point here! And Europe is far more crowding than Asia!

BTW, perhaps we can make up new African and American Civilizations, since there's so many in Europe and Asia, it would seem unfair to let Egyptians and Zulus have all the Africa for themselves (perhaps the continent more resourcefull) and Americans/Iroquois with North America and Aztechs with all the South America!

Of course historically, the American and African Continent would be far less crowded, but that (in the game) would lead to the unfair expansion room for those tribes and would make the game very unbalanced! Let me know what you think!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[MarkG]

Since locutus is returning to ctp2(sorry to see you go!), i think we can declare the end of this poll

it has run for months anyway!

[orange]

A beautiful list of Civs...

I agree with all but the Israeli...thank God we got Byzantines out of there

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
...and, let's not forget, Korea is hosting the World Cup!

Yes, together with Japan, it's enough...
However no chance against Poland and Portugal in qualifiers, man...
Now you can see that Portuguese and Polish civs are more important than Korean one...
(Not mentioning USA at all...)

[Shaka Naldur]

the Byzantines are off the top16

I´m not sure if I voted for them or not, what a pity

[Jrad]

Mossad, upgraded version of the Paratrooper! Its logical, at least to me...

[Makeo]

I still protest the prescence of the Fatties. When my kittycats are excluded.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Shaka Naldur
the Byzantines are off the top16

I´m not sure if I voted for them or not, what a pity

I guess people do not understand the importance of that civilization and its huge contribution to the shape of the modern world.

a) For near a millenium they kept off Europe several ambitious civilizations. They prevented the Persians from expanding to Eastern Mediteranean & Minor Asia therefore Europe as next target, Arabs from entering Europe from the east and slowed a bit several Turkish tribes (Seljuks, Ottomans, etc.) to expand toward west.
Therefore if Byzantine empire had colapsed several centuries earlier it would be uncertain whether modern Europe would be what is now. They could worship Allah and speaking Arabic by now for instance.
They might not had grown as much as they did so they might not had the strength to deal with invaders comming from all directions.

b) The cultural rousement that took place in Europe known as Renaissance was prepared by the occupation of Byzantine lands during 13th century and triggered by the massive Byzantine refugee wave toward Europe created from the gradual collapse of Byzantium during the 14th & 15th centuries. Do not tell me that it was a coincidence. Such things in such magnitude simply does not happen by coincidence

So Europe without Byzantine empire probably would not had the chance to gradually overtake the entire world during the centuries that followed the fall of Byzantium and Western culture would not had a chance to dominate.

[Locutus]

Aaaaaahhh, this brings back some nice memories Thanks for the bump, Makeo