Expansion Pack Civs (Part 4): A never-ending story?

[Jay Bee]

Your explanations are fine JK, you've got a point there, but with all the great people born in your country, having Magallanes there looks definitely weird.

Have you identified my avatar? Probably not, otherwise you would not have told me that funny stuff about "Spaniards from Barcelona calling Figo a traitor ", ha, ha. FC Barca lost and Real Madrid won, as it should always be

[JayKay]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Your explanations are fine JK, you've got a point there, but with all the great people born in your country, having Magallanes there looks definitely weird.

Have you identified my avatar? Probably not, otherwise you would not have told me that funny stuff about "Spaniards from Barcelona calling Figo a traitor ", ha, ha. FC Barca lost and Real Madrid won, as it should always be

I understand your point too (and i kind of agree), but i choose Magalhães because it's the only portuguese in civ 2, and it fuctions like a link of Portugal to Civ 2!!

And i've really noticed your avatar, but that story of Figo wasn't meant to u, but to the adepts of Barcelona who thoght like that!!

By the way, can u give me the Iberian Civ 2 website adress?
(I didn't know there was one)

_________________________________________________



Portugal - Nation of Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition)

[fluffy]

celts 20
vikings 20
welsh 20
scots 20
neanderthals 20
huns 20
maya 20
minoans 20

[jasev]

Here are my votes:

Spanish: 20 points
Arabs:20 points
Portuguese: 20 points
Incas: 10 points
Polish: 10 points
Mongols: 10 points
Turks: 5 points
Dutch: 10 points

I hope I've voted according to rules

Jasev

Thanks Dessloch.

[Dessloch]

no u voted wrong
u cant give spain 40 votes, 20 is max

[XarXo]

Please, change the "catalans" category for:

Crown of Aragon/Catalans/Valencians

And also make the following changes:

Spanish -20

Castilla-León/Castillians +20

[yaroslav]

Hi!

First of all, thank you Locutus for all your work in this thread...

Here are my votes:

Spanish: 20 points.
Hebrew/Israelis: 20 points.
Inca: 20 points.
Mayas: 20 points.
Portuguese: 20 points.
Phoenicians/Carthaginians: 10 points.
Turks: 10 points
Poles: 10 points
Arab: 10 points.
Dutch: 10 points
Byzantines: 10 points.

I hope that I don't have anything wrong.

[jdd2007]

you did everything great except you spelled the scots with a b-y-z

[Gramphos]

Locutus, what are all nbsps for in the header?

[Silvagem]

These are my points:

Portuguese - 20 Points
Iberians - 20

Spanish - 15
Berbers/Moors - 15
Huns - 15
(Australian) Aborigines - 15

It's very unfair that the Portuguese never made it to the Game.

We even have a Wonder of the World (Magellan's expedition) and units like the "Caravel", which was a Portuguese invention. But there are lots of other things we did, like our precious maps, used by other nations (Spanish, English, Dutch) to sail and colonize other places in the World.

How many Civs (in the game now) can say they have as much as we do?

Thanks for the Poll.

[mactbone]

Ummmm, all of them? Each get's a UU, each is widely recognized, etc. but enough of that...

Iberians? and Portugese... I get the Portugese, and maybe the Iberians, but not together. It's either Iberia, or it's Spain and Portugal. Imagine playing the Portugese versus the Iberians, almost everything would be the same, city names, etc. I don't buy it. Could you provide an explanation to those of us lacking historical knowledgs of the Iberians?

[jasev]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Could you provide an explanation to those of us lacking historical knowledgs of the Iberians?

I will answer you: Iberians (as told by Jay Bee in his scenario "Of celts and Iberians") were the first recorded inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula. They were many tribes who lived between Andalusia and the Pyrenees (there is a confusion between historians about that) and originally mixed with the celts (forming celtiberians), next with Romans, Visigoths and finally with Arabs, forming the actual Spanish and Portuguese (and, as Xarxo would remember me, Aragonese-Catalans) nations.

In spite of being separate nation, tribes and "civilizations", I agree with you it would be strange seeing Spanish and Portuguese fighting against Iberians. Silvagem should change it.

[Silvagem]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Iberians? and Portuguese...

Answering to MacTBone and jasev.

You might find it uncommon, but I see no reason to change it, and I will tell you why.

So you say it is strange, right?
But is it stranger than Americans fighting Sioux?? And what about English fighting Celts???
Weren't they in the exact same territory but in different epochs?

Yes they were!
(The Sioux were there long before the Americans were, although they stayed there while the Americans didn't destroy them.)
But those Civs are in the game, aren't them? What's the confusion then?

I guess that most people are not used to hearing about Portugal and Iberia, and when they do, they are confused, because they always think of Spain, which I think is a bit unfair.

But let me explain.
Iberians would be a Civ playing in the ancient times (starting 1000 BC), whilst the Portuguese and the Spanish would play in 1000 AD and afterwards.
Off course we cannot change the Civ names throughout times, but that would be more correct perhaps.

This is nothing different from what happens with the reason why those other Civs (English/Celts and Americans/Sioux) were put in the game.

Now another matter, once I'm at it.
I like the Spanish people as a whole. We use to call them "nuestros hermanos" which stands for "our brothers". But with all due respect, let us not forget that Portugal is (and always was) a nation by its own rights, which means we are not just a Spanish "province" as many people thinks...

In fact, our country is perhaps the oldest one in Europe (started as a such in 1140 A, and finished its borders in 1267 AD), so we have 734 years of history as a nation!!!
Who can beat that?

[XarXo]

Language situation at the Iberian Peninsulae in the XII - III centuries BC (source: Instituto Cervantes) :



Note that "Celitberico" reffers to the LEFT area, and "Dialectos Indoeuropeos" at the RIGHT area.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by silvagem
I like the Spanish people as a whole. We use to call them "nuestros hermanos" which stands for "our brothers".

Spaniards share that feeling. That's why it makes us sad that only one Portuguese brother has visited the Spanish Civ Site forum to date (hint, hint)

[jasev]

Originally posted by XarXo
Note that "Celitberico" reffers to the LEFT area, and "Dialectos Indoeuropeos" at the RIGHT area.

Xarxo, you can't think this map is exactly accurate. It works with very confused facts, with legends and non-demonstrated hypothesis. Do you really think basque languages were spoken on actual Lleida? Are you sure Tartessian culture existed and was located in Seville, Cadiz, Huelva and the Algarve? These are just examples of waht we don't really know about that age. And we were talking about a former age, when celts hadn't crossed the Pyrenees!

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by XarXo
Language situation at the Iberian Peninsulae in the XII - III centuries BC (source: Instituto Cervantes) :



Note that "Celitberico" reffers to the LEFT area, and "Dialectos Indoeuropeos" at the RIGHT area.

What happened to the Celts that lived in Galacia? Are they lumped into IndoEuropean Dialects?

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by jasev


Xarxo, you can't think this map is exactly accurate. It works with very confused facts, with legends and non-demonstrated hypothesis. Do you really think basque languages were spoken on actual Lleida? Are you sure Tartessian culture existed and was located in Seville, Cadiz, Huelva and the Algarve? These are just examples of waht we don't really know about that age. And we were talking about a former age, when celts hadn't crossed the Pyrenees!

Celts had crossed the Pyrennes probably by the 5th century B.C. but for sure by the 4th century B.C..

[Oerdin]

In fact, our country is perhaps the oldest one in Europe (started as a such in 1140 A, and finished its borders in 1267 AD), so we have 734 years of history as a nation!!!
Who can beat that?

Ha! Scotland is the Oldest unified state in modern Europe (late nineth century if my memory serves me) plus England can be considered with it's current borders since at least 1066 but Alfred the Great unified it centuries before William the Bastard (nee Conquorer) arrived.

[XarXo]

Xarxo, you can't think this map is exactly accurate. It works with very confused facts, with legends and non-demonstrated hypothesis. Do you really think basque languages were spoken on actual Lleida? Are you sure Tartessian culture existed and was located in Seville, Cadiz, Huelva and the Algarve? These are just examples of waht we don't really know about that age. And we were talking about a former age, when celts hadn't crossed the Pyrenees!

Basque WAS spoken in Lleida, this is one of the causes of the born of the occidental dialect in catalan.

Tartessos? IMHO I believe that is possible, too many serious chronicles and trade refferences about it. If it was here, I don't know.

[Leppersson]

Originally posted by XarXo
Please, change the "catalans" category for:

Crown of Aragon/Catalans/Valencians

And also make the following changes:

Spanish -20

Castilla-León/Castillians +20

Who else more?
Galicians,
Asturians,
Leonians,
Murcians/Cartagenians,
Andalusians,
Estramadurians...
And Iberian Peninsula as a world's map...
Cool - just for separate scenario...

[Silvagem]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Do I have extensive, indepth knowledge of the Khmer & Malian kingdoms? No, however, I would say I probably know more then the average reader in this thread and I certainly know more about world history then the average man on the street. Locutus, I made an evaluative judgement about the relative historical importance based upon certain criteria. [...]

Congratulations Oerdin!
You spoke like a real specialist in history. I completely agree with you. And I sure agree with your method: "objective criteria", not just personal caprice.
Even more, you did not forget about the Portuguese, like many people does.

It is a Post like this that makes sense in a forum, universal as this one.
People should understand that the most important thing about posting things is about being **objective**, and not just about expressing their own whims (or caprices).

I think most people want to know opinions based on *facts*, not just things like: "I love. Why? Because I do!"
This is totally empty of reason, and just because our words are read by people all over the world, it doesn't mean they are more valid. They will be meaningless, if they haven't something in which to support themselves.

So I ask everyone to be more reasonable and more tolerant towards others opinions, but please, base your opinions in facts as much as possible.

If you are going to use your own taste, than don't impose that on others. We have a saying in Portugal like this:
"Tastes are not arguable!". Because they are not based on objective criteria, but just on personal opinions.

So, although I think everyone's opinion should be welcomed, everyone should be able to understand that those opinions shouldn't be argued about, unless they are based on facts or real things...

Locutus, thanks for all the work and for promoting such an interesting poll.

[Silvagem]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Ha! Scotland is the Oldest unified state in modern Europe (late nineth century if my memory serves me) plus England can be considered with it's current borders since at least 1066 but Alfred the Great unified it centuries before William the Bastard (nee Conquorer) arrived.

I didn't know about the Scots. I'm not an expert in world history.

But, Hey Oerdin, you could have let that one pass by, couldn't you!

I won't argue with you, though.

[Droximus]

Locutus-

Since my revised-Iriqouis vote was disqualified...understandably I suppose, I would like to recast my vote (10 points) for the Confederate States of America.

Thanks.

[mactbone]

I'll NEVER back down from my 6 points to the Empire, NEVER. There were only so many civs I felt needed to be included. Then, I figured, what the hey, they conquered several galaxies, they deserve at least a small nomination, right?

I'd like to say that this is personal opinion, but you better be able to explain your votes, because some people (like myself) are interested in WHY you voted for this or that Civ (Iberians anyone?). After hearing the answer to my Iberian question, I now understand why others may want to vote for them. Personally, I still feel that it's a redundancy worse than the Byzantines or HRE (which I view as fully autonomous from the Germans, thank you very much), but like I said, it's about opinions, because that is the only measuring pole we have. Without it, there wouldn't and couldn't be a top 32 here, everyone would vote the same down the line, making this poll pointless. Having opinions is what is making this thread interesting.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Gramphos
Locutus, what are all nbsps for in the header?

Because HTML layout rules s*ck bigtime. Adding a bunch of spaces was the easiest (though probably not the most elegant) way to get the header 'Civilizations' to be displayed on the lefthand side of that cell (IIRC it was centered by default).

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Leppersson

Who else more?
Galicians,
Asturians,
Leonians,
Murcians/Cartagenians,
Andalusians,
Estramadurians...
And Iberian Peninsula as a world's map...
Cool - just for separate scenario...

Wow Leppersson, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the Spanish nations! Answering your question, people are voting for scots, welsh, irish in addition to the english. One might argue that all these nationalities could fit into a generic british civ.
Being serious now, I agree, this is fine for a scenario or modpack, not for the regular game. Incidentally, there is indeed a Spanish nations modpack out there...

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Locutus
Because HTML layout rules s*ck bigtime. Adding a bunch of spaces was the easiest (though probably not the most elegant) way to get the header 'Civilizations' to be displayed on the lefthand side of that cell (IIRC it was centered by default).

This was the third way I heard to walk around it.
The two others are either usind <TD><B>Text</B></TD> or using <TH ALIGN=left>Text</TH>

[Locutus]

Like, I said, the easiest, not the most elegant...

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Locutus
Like, I said, the easiest, not the most elegant...

I would say that the align=left is easier (and smaller too ).