Expansion Pack Civs (Part 4): A never-ending story?

[Kazimierz]

Hello!

I've been trying to follow the threads on this topic, but with their length, it has been hard and gave up. Jumping to the end, I would like to give a couple civs. My choices are based on being a history teacher, an American, speaker of 4 languages (and dabbler in ~ 5 others)....strange for an American, I know!

Here they are:

Poland +20 (Central Political Figure In East/Central Europe 900- [w/ leader Kazimierz III Wielki] 1795)
Spain +10 (Political Force/Colonist 1490-1800's)

Arab +20 (Major Political/Cultural Force)
[w/ leader Mohammed (faceless of course)]

Magyar/Hungary +10

S.E. Asian (Khmer/Thai/Etc.) +10

Kush (region of current day Sudan--offsets power of Egypt) +10


My humble additions...hopefully I didn't miss something important in the "overlooked" posts. (Modified to meet rules of thread)

-------------

HUN vs MONGOL

Huns and Mongols (as ruled by the Khans) are different. The Huns (Hsiung Nu) came from north of China and spread west and broke into two branches the White and the Black Huns (one to Central Asia/Persia region, one into Europe). The Black Huns of Europe left decendants in France, the Alps, but mostly settled in the Hungarian Plain to become the Magyars (Hun -> Hungarians).


Kazimierz - Minnesota, USA

[Locutus]

Myrddin,
In that case we should stop the poll altogether, 'cause the Mayans aren't the only civ. Gramphos was kind enough to provide me with a list of all barbarian 'cities' (the ones with a 'x' in front of their name have been voted for in this poll - I did it from the top of my head so I might made 1 or 2 mistakes here):

x Mayan
x Incan
x Cherokee
x Anasazi
Teoihuacan
x Olmec
Zapotec
Chehalis
x Chinook
x Apache
Illinois
x Inuit
x Navajo
x Carib
Saxon
x Vandal
x Goth
Angle
x Magyar
x Khazak
x Celt
x Bulgar
Alemanni
x Burgundian
Gepid
x Hun
Jute
Marcomanni
x Seljuk
x Pheonician
x Estruscan
Illuryian
Thracian
Phrygian
x Gaul
x Minoan
Mycenian
Cimmerian
Ligurian
Numidian
Patzinal
Sarmatian
Scythian
Suren
x Sumerian
x Assyrian
x Hittite
x Harappan
Mauryan
x Parthian
x Harappan
x Nubian
Sarbadar
Bactrian
Circassian
Cuman
Hurrian
Kassite
x Bantu
x Khoisan
x Mongol
Shangian
Yayoi
Zhou
Ainu
x Polynesian
Aryan
Avar
Ghuzz
x Hsung-Nu
x Kushans
Yue-Chi
Sakae
x Uzbek
x Tartar

Kazimierz,
I'll count your vote now. I agree with you on the Hun-Mongol issue. Many 'barbaric' tribes like the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks/Turkics had their origins in the same region and classifying them in groups in FE 500 BCE would be impossible but the Mongol empire of Genghis Khan is distinctly different from the Hunnic empire of Attila or the Ottoman empire that ruled over eastern Europe and the Middle East. So these civs (and a whole bunch of others) should IMHO definitely be seen as distinctly different and not be trown together as Trifna suggested.

[Veracitas]

Koreans - 20
Celts - 20
Mongols - 20
Virginians - 5
Italians - 15
Singaporean - 20
Danes - 10
Swiss - 20

[Trifna]

I simply wanted to thanks Locutus for his work on this veeery long thread :-)

My Votes:

Spanish 20
Celts 20
Polynesian 20
Cherokee 20
Inca 20
Mayan 20
Sioux/Dakota 20
Apache 20

[KaiserIsak]

1) Turks 20 points
It is a shame that they have never been in a civ game before, they are in practicly every scenario. They were the most powerful nation in the world (or at least almost) for many centuries and should definatly be represented in civ3. Capital at Istanbul

2) Arabs 20 points
Another important one. I think they should have their capital at Damascus on the world map (Babylonians already occupieing Iraq, and Mekkah/Medina to poor) They´re empire and influence is MUCH more important then any other civ (maybe except for the greeks, chinese and romans).

3) Mongols 20 points
A muzt ofcourse. Their empire is the greatest ever.

4) Spanish 20 points
Much more important than americans, babylonians, and other civilizations that are included.

5) Austrians (or Austria-Hungary) 20 points

6) Khmer 20 points.

7) Split the indians in two. The civilizations shouls rather be named Mogul (muslim) and Ashoka (hindu). These two religions cant be in the same civ. 20 points for that suggestion.

8) Incas 20 points. We need more americans, so USA dont get to easy game over there.


I would also like to se included (this is not votes)

Dutch
Portuguese
Carthagians
Ummayds (great empire in marroc ans spain, collapsed around year 1000) Capital in Cordoba
Poland
Vikings/Scandinavia
Sioux (same reason as with incas)
Mali/Timbouktu OR Ethiopia

[TCO]

Originally posted by Pseud0nym


HEY! I voted for the fatties too! So they should now have 2 points!

Well...would you have helped me out with the kittycats, poodles, Washington Redskins and Northwestern Wildcats? I proposed them before the Fatties got in here...but was DENIED!

[Locutus]

I updated again: up to Trachmir, 213 votes, 32567 points, 95.6%. Only major changes in the top of the ranking are that (1) the Portuguese moved up two places (to #10) and (2) the Polynesians are *very* close to the top 16 again (only 5 points away).

Pseud0nym,
You have 19 points left.

Pyrodrew,
You have 2 points left.

Estilpón,
You have 15 points left.

Jofre,
You wanted to take away 20 points from the Spanish but you've already done that in a previous update. I removed your vote for Catalonia and replaced it with Aragorn. Because of the non-existing Spanish votes I had to ignore your vote for Castilla. Let me know if you want to change anything.

dasaecorvic,
You have 40 points left.

Kazimierz,
You have 80 points left.

Veracitas,
You have 30 points left.

KaiserIsak,
I haven't counted your vote yet (if only you had voted 5 minutes earlier or I had started updating 5 minutes later...) but I'll count it next time I update. One question though: how should I distribute your Indian vote? You're description isn't very useful for me. I think I'll give 20 points to the Ashoka (as the Moghul are basically already in the game in the form of the Mongols). Let me know if you disagree though and give me an exact distribution of the points...

GP,
You won't give up, will ya? And I thought you were persistent when it came to branching threads

[Drake Tungsten]

Go Polynesians!!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Locutus

GP,
You won't give up, will ya? And I thought you were persistent when it came to branching threads

Well big guy,

who do ya love more? The Fatties? Or the Kittycats. It's a no-brainer to me!!

Now about those branchning threads...things were much better when Apolyton was branching thread...

[KaiserIsak]

Locutus--> You´re right. My indian idea is probably difficult since this is about voting.
Give the points to the dutch then.

[szoszon]

Hi,

Poles 20
Spanish 20
Portugese 20
Latvians 20
Hungary 20
Czech 10

Hope it's valid.

Mariusz

[pithorr]

Originally posted by szoszon
Hi,

Poles 20
Spanish 20
Portugese 20
Latvians 20
Hungary 20
Czech 10

Hope it's valid.

Mariusz

Haven't you forgotten Shoshoni?

[siredgar]

A lot of you are voting for the Arabs, but that seems like a wasted vote to me. There are already TWO Arab civilizations in Civ III. If you really want to play the Arabs, go select the Babylonians or Egyptians and modify the city names, etc. Same goes for those who want the Italians in-- go pick the Romans and make your modifications!

By the way, I think it's ridiculous that Civ III came with three Middle Eastern civilizations (Babylonians, Egyptians, and Persians) when they dropped the Vikings, Mongols, and Spanish.

Also, why did they include TWO native American civilizations? The Aztecs are acceptable, but they should have dropped the Iroquois and put the Spanish in instead. After all, what did the Iroquois really achieve besides getting wiped out by the Americans? As for the Incas, do you really need them if you have the Aztecs?

Even so, keep two things in mind-- diversity and relevance.

As for my voting, I cast it this way:

EUROPEAN:
Spanish 20
Vikings 20
Portuguese 20
Dutch 20

ASIAN:
Mongols 20
Koreans 20
Turks 20
Indo-Malays 20

Here's my reasoning for each one...

Spanish:
They colonized most of the New World, parts of Africa and Asia, and even ruled the Portuguese for a while. You've got the Conquistadors such as the ruthless Cortez and their great explorers. Spain was one of the great global powers and it is still a major country today. They also have a strong CULTURAL influence around the world. The Spanish deserved to be included in the original 16 civilizations group more than even the Germans or the Japanese because of this. They’re also a good substitute for people who want to play Latin American countries like Argentina for example.

Vikings:
While not much of a “civilization”, they terrorized much of Europe and even journeyed to parts of the New World before any other Europeans. They are also the ancestors of many Scandinavians who occupy five different countries in Europe. Anyhow, I know that there A LOT of Civ III players in Sweden!

Portuguese:
Not as powerful as the Spanish, but they still took over Brazil and parts of Africa and Asia. Portugal has had a significant cultural impact on many parts of the globe. Portugal was also a major power for a while and still exists today. Brazilian players can use them as a good substitution.

Dutch:
A commercial empire built on trade routes to the Indies, they controlled Indonesia and parts of the Caribbean. The Netherlands is still a potent economic force, despite its small size.

Mongols:
Just given the fact that they seized more territory than any other civilization at any point in history makes them a must. They defeated the mighty Chinese and even threatened to overtake Europe.

Koreans:
Often overlooked in history, the Koreans fought many wars against Chinese tribes to control territory the size of Western Europe. They invented the moveable print at least 200 years before the Europeans. In addition, they were the first to use an iron-clad vessel in battle (see Age of Empires II expansion pack-- the Turtle Boat, a great unit to play with). They have re-emerged as an economic and military power, despite being surrounded by major powers Russia, China, and Japan.

Turks:
The Ottoman Empire spanned across the Middle East and even large parts of Europe. Their descendants are now scattered all over Central Asia. They were also included in Age of Empires II. Furthermore, ancient Troy was located in today’s Turkey.

Indo-Malays:
They are scattered all over Southeast Asia (primarily Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines) and even as far away as Africa’s largest island-country Madagascar. Also, this will be good for our friends in that part of the world and we need another Asian civilization anyhow. People who wanted to play the Thai, Khmer, or Vietnamese could replace the city names, etc.

I feel most strongly about the Vikings, Mongols, Spanish, and Koreans. The others would be good, but not essential for any expansion pack.

Other civilizations that I think deserve mention are:
Assyrians, Austro-Hungarians, Carthaginians, and Celts.

Most of the other suggestions overlap or are just too small.

Tell me what you think!

[siredgar]

Spanish:
Expansionist, Commercial

Vikings:
Expansionist, Militaristic

Portuguese:
Scientific, Commercial

Dutch:
Commercial, Industrious

Mongols:
Expansionist, Militaristic

Koreans:
Scientific, Religious

Turks:
Expansionist, Scientific

Indo-Malays:
Expansionist, Religious

[Jay Bee]

SirEdgar: I'd have the Spanish as religious militaristic though A very popular Spanish motto for centuries was "To God through an Empire"

[Estilpón]

Kkerm / Thai 15 points

thanks Locuts. good work.

[Stefu]

God damn! Someone drop the accursed Polynesians there and fast!

POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! I can't help but thinking that 3/4 votes of Polynesians are based on 'Guns, Germs and Steel' talking about Polynesians! If chapter discussing them had been left out, Polynesians wouldn't have nearly as much points. They were bunch of small, disunited islands in the middle of Pacific ocean which never amounted to much anything. Why the frick should they be in Civ3? I mean, think of starting a Civ3 game on Earth map with Polynesians - you're stuck in one small, one-square island! That offers so many prospects of expansion, wa-hey-hey!

[siredgar]

Jay Bee,

Originally, I was going to put the Spanish as expansionist and militaristic, but that put them in line with the Vikings and Mongols (and Zulus!) which I don't think is quite right. I put commercial to make them have at least one same trait as the Portuguese.

I definitely think they are expansionist, however. So, maybe they could be expansionist and militaristic or expansionist and religious, but I'm open to militaristic and religious, too. Didn't a lot of European countries use a similar "God, etc" motto, however?

I was having more problems with classifying the Turks and Indo-Malays since I am not too familiar with their civilizations. Anyone want to give it a stab?

Sir Edgar

[Furtigan]

Spanish
Viking
Carthage
Celt
Mongol
Ottoman
Dutch (1/2)
Portuguese (1/2)

and most of all:

Mon Khmer

I lived in Korea and have Korean freinds, but until modern times, Korea was a very small state, it has never controlled an empire or even threatened China or Japan.

The Khmer, in contast, controlled most of the area that is now Burma, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. They were fearsome warriors, and their culture built cities and monuments on a grand scale. Anybody ever heard of Angkor Wat?

Along with the Mongols, they'll even out the Asian area.

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by Furtigan


I lived in Korea and have Korean freinds, but until modern times, Korea was a very small state, it has never controlled an empire or even threatened China or Japan.

Actually, modern Korea is a lot smaller (physically) now than it has been in the past. As I explained in this post , Koguryo (which included roughly what is today north Korea and large portions of Manchuria) was about the size of modern-day France. Continued wars with the neighbouring Chinese Sui dynasty actually caused the collapse of that dynasty, and Koguryo was a major rival to the subsequent Tang Dynasty (though the Chinese eventually won out after allying themselves with another Korean kingdom, Silla). Korea has also threatened Japan several times, as evidenced by the numerous wars fought in ancient/medieval times.

Also, ordered by the Mongolians, the Chinese and Koreans built huge fleets to invade Japan, only to have their fleets sunk by kamikaze (holy storm).

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by siredgar
I definitely think they are expansionist, however. So, maybe they could be expansionist and militaristic or expansionist and religious, but I'm open to militaristic and religious, too. Didn't a lot of European countries use a similar "God, etc" motto, however?

Unlike most other civs, the Spanish expansionism was a consequence of their religiousness, i.e. their main reason to expand was a religious one. Militarism was the other great characteristic of the Spanish, and what allowed them to conquer the greatest empire ever. Eight hundred years of continuous struggle against the Muslims created the spirit.

[Corvi #6]

My votes:

Arabs 20
Turk 20
Crete/ Minoans 20
Hittites 20
Tocharians 10
Thai 10
Khmer 10
Mongols 10
Goths 10


The Goths aren't a part of the german sphere any more than the vikings are. Proto-Germanic (or teutonic) split into three distinct sub-families; Western Germanic (German, Dutch, English), Northern Germanic (scandinavian languages) and Eastern Germanic (Gothic- sadly all examples are extinct). As such, the Goths, who ruled an enormous empire from the Baltic to the Black sea long before they conquered Italy, Psain and southern France, have just as much right as the Vikings to be in CivIII, if not more.

[hatless]

here is my votes:

Polynesians 20
Koreans 20
Khmer 20
Turks 20
Ethiopians 20
Thai 10
Inuit 10
Indonesians 10
Vietnamese 10
Aboriginis 10
Tibetans 5
Mali 5

[ranskaldan]

Siamese -20
Khmer +20

[siredgar]

Actually, my judgment on the Koreans is primarily based on its pre-17th century history.

For a while, the Koreans had sizeable territory (about the size of Western Europe). They also had unique military units-- hwarangs (archers) and turtle boats (ironclads).

The 15th century, however, is probably when they reached their cultural peak. The ruler, King Sejong, promoted significant literary, philosophical, and scientific advances during this time. This, of course, came prior to its internal stagnation and then contact with the West and a newly modernized Japan.

Anyhow, when most people think of Asia, the three major civilizations come to mind-- China, Japan, and Korea.

Even if you're making a comparison today, Korea beats Cambodia, right?

[WhittyMike]

Thanks, Locutus, for all your hard work. I've placed my votes below, beside a complete list from your spreadsheet. I think you may be able to cut-and-paste the section below right into your Excel spreadsheet.

Spanish, 20
Mongols, 20
Arab
Inca, 20
Vikings, 30
Turks/Ottomans
Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Yes
Maya, 20
Celts, 30
Portuguese
Hebrew/Israelis, 20
Dutch
Ethiopians/Aksumites
Poles, Yes
Koreans, Yes
Byzantines
Polynesians
Mali(ans)
Khmer
Austrians/Austro-Hungarians
Huns
Assyrians
Inuit/Eskimos/Aleutians
Australians
Sioux/Dakota
(Australian) Aborigines
Siamese/Thai
Magyar/Hungarians
Scots, yes
Brazilians
Tibetans
Swedes
Slavs
Sumerians
Annam/Vietnamese
Czech
Serbs
Apache
Neanderthals
Canadians
Goths
Zimbabweans
Minoans
Ukrainians
Indonesians
Welsh
Nubians/Kushites
Hittites
Italians
Irish, Yes
Native Americans/American Indians
Fins
Holy Romans/Catholics/Vaticans
Scandinavians
Argentinians
Swiss
Tartars
Ghanaians/Accrans
Trojans
Latvians
Olmec
Nigerians/Swagilians
Crown of Aragorn
Cubans
Kazakhs
Harappans/Dravidians/Indus People
Songhai
Maori
Californians
Berbers/Moors
Mexicans
Anasazi
Amazonians (Native Brazilians)
Armenians
Danes
Etruscs
Filipinos
Swahili/Kilwans
Belgians
Confederates, Yes
Iraqis
Norwegians
Cherokee
South East Asians
Muslims/Near East Asians
Uzbek/LithuUzbek
Texans, Yes
Boers
Iberians
Iranians
Philistinians
Macedonians
Hmong
South Africans
Virginians
Hawaiians
Al-Alandalus
Almerienses
Bangladeshis
Bedouin
Cartagenians (from Cartagena)
Castilla-Leon/Castillians
Pygmy
Seljuks
Singaporeans
Snake Mounds
Ugandians
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Navaho
Yankees
Algonquiens
Bulgarians
Manchu(rian)s
Sub-Saharans
Mesopotamians
Galactic Emperials (Star Wars)
New Zealanders
Bantu
Caribbeans
Geordie
Hopi
Javans
Mon
Teutons
Tunguz
Tunisians
Quebecois
Columbians
Slovakians
Palestinians
Sámi
Hospitaliers
Fatty Lumpkins
Khwarizm

==============================
One sidebar comment: I've given most of my votes to the Civs that I think should be added to an expansion pack. Some other Civs that I would like to play, but that I don't think would make good additions for most people, I've included with a "Yes" (which should not mess up a cut-and-paste into the spreadsheet). I would give them a single-point vote, but Locutus' rules indicate a 20 vote mininum (probably to reduce the amount of ballot counting for him). Locutus doesn' t have to count them, of course.

A plug for the Celts: Although breaking out separate nationalities for the Scots, Irish, Welsh, etc. would be fun in a British Isles scenario, for purposes of this game they're arguably a single civilization, and we've got a much better chance that they'll be included if we unite as Celts (kind of like the Scots and the Irish getting together in the movie Braveheart, but hopefully with more success).

A counter-plug for the Arabs: Not to knock the accomplishments of the Caliphate, but the Bedouins, Yemenis, and other natives of the Arabian peninsula just didn't have enough resources (in the pre-petroleum age) to conquer what became known as the Arab world. They *did* have the resources, and the motivation and religious zeal, to conquer Mesopotamia, and that made all the difference. I would put the Arab civilization into the context of the game by considering them to be the Babylonians with Monotheism. If the game could be set up so that, upon gaining Monotheism, the Babylonian player would have the option of setting off a revolution to convert into the Arab civilization, with a separate UU and another Golden Age, then I think everyone ought to be satisfied. I don't know if that's possible, however.

Other optional conversions into new Civilizations might include the Romans into the Italians (triggered by some advance from the Rennaissance period, or building Leonardo's Workshop) and the English into the British (triggered by absorbing the Celts! ).

[LoD]

WhittyMike: err, you can award a civ 20 points at most, not at least.

[biggreenthingy]

Thanks for doing all this.

My vote is

Poles 20
Turks 20
Spainish 20
Celts 20
Mongols 20
Dutch 20
Inca 20
Amazons 20

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Stefu
God damn! Someone drop the accursed Polynesians there and fast!

POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! POLYNESIANS! I can't help but thinking that 3/4 votes of Polynesians are based on 'Guns, Germs and Steel' talking about Polynesians! If chapter discussing them had been left out, Polynesians wouldn't have nearly as much points. They were bunch of small, disunited islands in the middle of Pacific ocean which never amounted to much anything. Why the frick should they be in Civ3? I mean, think of starting a Civ3 game on Earth map with Polynesians - you're stuck in one small, one-square island! That offers so many prospects of expansion, wa-hey-hey!

Absolutely!
The same for Sioux and Iroquis...