FM and drones

[Bella Hella]

la la la, another dumb question.

what's the best way to go about running free market? i desperately want to run it, but i've never really had the guts to risk having all those millions of drones. i totally hate drone riots. do you prepare for it by getting the human genome project, building rec commons, etc. first?

let's hear some techniques for running FM!

[Paul]

Set psych to 10 or 20% depending on what you need and build some psych facilities.

[knowhow2]

depends on which faction your are. The PKs can go FM easily with just rec com. The Morgans probably needs Holo T also but they don't grow beyond size 4 easily so you don't need more beside that. Well I guess rec com and Holo T is the way to go for most factions. If you wanna go war then you need a base with punishment Sphere and rehome all your cleantroops there before attacking.

There are threads about this you just need to find them. Trust me they are worth reading.

[Cybergod]

2 easey peasey words:

Virtual World!!!

[Cybergod]

PS: Don't forget to build the Network Nodes!

[Flubber]

Lots of ways to beat the drone problems

- Specialist bases
-- punishment spheres for offensive units
-- psych allocation and facilities

I thought FM was terrible the first time I tried it and all my bases riot but in most cases all you have to do is quell the drones that your police had pacified. I will admit that running a war with FM takes a bit more work but thats where a punishment sphere or an all-specialist base can really help. Rehome all your explorers/attackers to this base to avoid the "out of territory" drones.

[Avenoct]

This has all been said a million times before, but, here's another recap, written for Transcend level, so dampen the effects for other levels:

1. the -5 Police is tough. This means no police effect from your troops, and it also means that if your boys leave your territory, you will get 2 'pacifist' drones per unit at their home base.

A. Handling the Drones: Your first citizen shouldn't cause a drone, if you are within your beaurocracy limit (number of bases you can have before extra drones). Your second citizen in Transcend will cause a drone. You need a rec commons to handle him. Best off if you have rec-commons at all your bases before making the switch in the first place. With the rec in place you can theoretically have 3 working citizens at each base. With crawlers, even this size base is plenty for awhile.

The Virtual World, combined with Network Nodes gives you 2 more 'free' citizens, and is equivalent to building Holo-theatres in all your bases. The Human Genome Project is also excellent in this regard. There are more SP's in the mid-late game that can help, but if you want to run FM, these are the 2 SP's to get if at all possible.

B. Handling the Pacifist Drones: Don't take your military out of your territory. No wait, Don't Begin Your Turn with military out of your territory. There is a difference.

"Yeah, but wait, how do I fight wars then?"

"Three major methods here: Best, if you have crawlers: Take a base to 5 citizens, which will allow you to switch ALL of them to specialists. Don't bother making them Doctors or Empaths. Make them Engineers or Librarians. That base won't riot under any circumstances....but it will starve. So use the crawlers to crawl in food. Probably best to figure out the math before you even try this method. Now, re-home (Command-H) the military units you want to take out of your territory to this base. Voila, problem solved. Just remember that Military use Minerals, unless they have clean reactors."

"Second Best: Build a Punishment Sphere somewhere. This hurts your research at that base, but there won't be drone problems, so use it like above."

"Third Best: Actually, this is the very best and easiest...don't know why I list it last....Wage battles against bases, and only fight if you are going to win. Thus, your units (presumably air-power and/or drop troops for this to be the most fun and effective) leave your territory, kill the garrison of a neighboring base, move into the base, and extend your territory to include them...all in one turn. "

Running FM is all about Drone Control. Use Psych allocation combined with the above to allow your bases to grow beyond even these limits...build as many psych enhancing facilities as you can. All-Specialist bases are extremely valuable for other reasons as well (do a search on the term to find out more). But remember, the major 'point' of FM is to achieve +2 economy in your bases, thus garnering +1 energy a square. If your game can't or isn't focused on energy and labs, FM is just a pain.

2. Planet will be Pissed: The -2 Planet is no big help either. Be prepared for higher ecodamage from your bases, deadly encounters with any native life, and for the possibility that an enemy might use Psi-units to attack you with great facility. This is really secondary because you can prepare for it. Place clean (if possible) trance defenders in every base, and make a few empath attack units at the highest possible morale to fight off any native attacks.

I know I forgot something, but there's a bit of help. FM is a great choice, and as you get used to it you'll find that you will want to run it for most of the game if possible. Experience will tell you how to think far ahead for making the switch to FM..ie, how to get a specialist base set up, which wars are going to be possible, and when to switch out of FM for 'pop-booming'. Good luck!

-Smack

[Admiral]

At one point I played a game as the Hive, with FM and every police enhancing SE/Project I could get. It was fairly amusing, because in the end I had something like +4 police.

*end random anecdote*

Listen to Smack.

[Juggernaut]

Constant nerve stapling.

[Scipio Centaurus]

It's tough to maintain a permanent *offensive* air combat capability [strike needlejets/strike copters/missiles/locusts] under FM in the early to mid-game - unless you are willing to do something like the Punisphere technique described in another message. However, you can have as many *defensive* air combat units as you want without causing pacifist drones. Just add the (air-to-air) combat capability to your needlejest and chopper designs. They will have shorter range and are less effective against ground and sea targets than the strike versions of the aircraft designs - though they can still wreak havoc on soft targets like incoming transports.

I play Morgan [FM/Wealth] a lot and I tend to make use of *mercenary* strike air combat forces whenever I need to attack outside my territorial boundaries. Caveat: I am nowhere near as aggressive as most players. i will normally drop the pursuit the moment I have driven the attackers from my territory. If you feel compelled to 'roll-up' your enemies, you should avoid the merc technique.

The merc strike air force technique goes as follows:

1> Place several bases on infinite air strike unit production
2> Attack with the strike aircraft the same turn they are built
3> If a strike unit gets destroyed, fine - send another one to finish off the target
4> If the strike air unit is victorious, repatriate [SHIFT+D] the merc air crews immediately. Chopper crews only after you have made multiple attacks, of course. Don't even waste time returning damaged attack air units to base. It's quicker to build a new one.
5> In either case 3 or 4, the pacifist drones in the building base disappear instantly before they can cause the base to revolt
6> Once the enemy attack has been repulsed, switch all bases back to immediate infrastructure production and repatriate all merc air attack units.

Most people probably find this a horrid waste of resources, but believe me, it's not a problem on FM/Wealth in the later stages of the game against the AI. You will easily repulse any incoming attacks - even by multiple AI factions. Do try to get the combat morale boosting facilities and SPs as soon as possible, as you will need those morale bonuses. Also, always keep a decent defensive air combat capability as a permanent air force to blunt that first incoming wave of attackers.

If I must maintain a strike air unit for more than a turn or two, I will typically switch the pacifist drones in the affected base [less than size 10] to specialists. This requires that you have boreholes, condensors and supply crawlers up and running. Keep the base's mineral production positive with crawlers. Let the nutrient production go negative for a couple of turns if necessary.

Once a base reaches double digit population levels you can actually maintain a couple of permanent offensive air combat units [i.e. planet busters] without ever worrying about losing bases to drone revolts. Just let the pacifist drones protest to their hearts content. The base will need a couple of psych specilaists to neutralize the drones and the necessary advanced terraforming and crawlers to make up for any resource shortfalls - min/nuts both positive.

If you go to FM before you finish exploring, you can use tranports and probes as ad hoc exploration teams. They won't cause drones when they leave your territory.

- Scipio

[bondetamp]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
Constant nerve stapling.

*points at the dumb Swede and laughs*

You can't nerve staple drones under FM!

[big_canuk]

crawl nuts, and specialists!

[Blake]

Altough the specialist base is generally better than a PS, since I stopped using crawlers (terrible unbalanced things they are...) I've used PS's a few times, usually in captured bases.

Sure the base doesn't produce much Lab, so I only build energy enhancers, and put Engineers to work. (So I'm really only losing 1/5th of the energy produced by each engineer)

PS bases tend to grow quickly and work a maximum of tiles, because you dont need specialists for drone control. This makes them really rather good at cranking out military. And they are less vunerable to mind control.

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Blake
...since I stopped using crawlers (terrible unbalanced things they are...)

You mean in SP right? Not in MP?

You should have played in our recently completed no-crawlers challenge game where a group of us took turns playing University without building any crawlers. We transcended in MY 2430 or so, but what a struggle it was. Yang was way ahead of us when we became one with the fungus...

I [plan to] do many things different when playing MP as opposed to SP [I haven't actually made it to Doc:AP in any MP game yet].

PS bases tend to grow quickly and work a maximum of tiles, because you dont need specialists for drone control. This makes them really rather good at cranking out military. And they are less vunerable to mind control.

I will try to rmember to build a Punisphere [or two] in my next SP game.

- Scipio

[Basil]

One thing I use to fight offensive wars while running Free Market is the Ascetic Virtues. It takes your police rating from -5 (2 drones/unit) to -4 (1 drone/unit). Coupled with 20% psych and holo theatres, I find each large base can easily support one or two drone-producing units.

I also use punishment spheres, of course. My record is 10 of them in a game as Marr

[Blake]

Originally posted by Scipio Centaurus


You mean in SP right? Not in MP?

Ofcourse, altough MP would probably be more enjoyable and balanced with crawlers . Except 90% of SMAC players are depraved crawler addicts, so would kick, scream and bite if you tried to seperate them from their crawlers.

You should have played in our recently completed no-crawlers challenge game where a group of us took turns playing University without building any crawlers. We transcended in MY 2430 or so, but what a struggle it was. Yang was way ahead of us when we became one with the fungus...

Dont suppose there is going to be another No Crawler challenge... 2430 sounds pretty slow, I can consitentely outgrow enhanced Transcend AI's without using crawlers.
The only game I've actually completed while playing no crawlers was won by 2340 (playing as Morgan, planetbuster victory, but I had Transcend tech, single-blind research, not techstag).

[Avenoct]

Yes, we barely made it through the no-crawler succession game. We had a horrible start location and were at least half a century behind where we could have been for the whole game. Secondly, the AI did surprisingly well, as they seem to do every 10th game or so. Yang just exploded with..70 bases or so? It was out of control. The major problem with our succession games was that in the late game, taking 10 turns and making a report is a monumental task...it was too time consuming. The great thing is that we played a whole game in a couple weeks.

Er, just a wee bit off-topic.

-S-

[Bella Hella]

hooray! thanks for the comments and tips. i am successfully running FM, dem and wealth with morgan in my current game (thinker, large map). the size-4 bases have been working to my advantage on some level. before switching to FM, i built rec commons in every base, which completely pacified the size-4-base drones. rec commons is now one of my priority builds (along with formers and rec tanks). stupid lal acquired the VW, but i got the HGP and am now working towards the aestic (sp) virtues. after switching to FM and getting used to it, i began to build hab complexes in anticipation for some kinda pop boom.

anyway, it's working fine, i'm making tons of crazy cash, and my probe teams rule. thanks again for the help!

[Flubber]

Bella

Sounds like you are doing great but I will confess that as Morgan I rarely see the need to go FM. Wealth alone gets you to the +2 Econ level that adds an energy per square. I am aware of the benefits of the higher Econ ratings but I usually would prefer to avoid the problems of FM if I can get to +2 ECON without it.

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Avenoct
Yes, we barely made it through the no-crawler succession game. We had a horrible start location and were at least half a century behind where we could have been for the whole game. Secondly, the AI did surprisingly well, as they seem to do every 10th game or so. Yang just exploded with..70 bases or so? It was out of control. The major problem with our succession games was that in the late game, taking 10 turns and making a report is a monumental task...it was too time consuming. The great thing is that we played a whole game in a couple weeks.
Er, just a wee bit off-topic.
-S-

We started on the tip of a long peninsula and before we could expand into the main body of the landmass, Morgan popped up and cut us off. Well, after 100+ years of mutual road rage, we finally got Morgan some 'sensitivity' training and learned to get along with each other. Actually, I think blind research is more of a hindrance than lack of crawlers against the AI.

I am rested up enough for another go at the succession NCC game - if we can dispense with [or severly limit] the reporting part. I have too many active MP games going to do all that writing. Anyone could set it up as it is just a regular SP start. Last I heard Qantaga, Zakharov VII were also interested in a retry of the University NCC (no-crawler challenge) succession variant. Can we add your name Blake? What about it Smack, JohnDMuller, Arima? Another possibility is a straight MP NCC game, though I need another MP game like I need a hole in my head...

- Scipio

[knowhow2]

Originally posted by bondetamp


*points at the dumb Swede and laughs*

You can't nerve staple drones under FM!

No you can't nervestaple DURING FM but you can do it before going into FM. But you're still right, his is a dumb Swede. You can only nervestaple twice per base.

[Bella Hella]

I usually would prefer to avoid the problems of FM if I can get to +2 ECON without it.

i can see your point with that, but i'm going for the ultimate morgan game right now, and trying to make lots and lots and lots of money! i only have enough military units to guard my bases, so i avoid the "2 drones per unit away form territory" rule. the only thing i care about for this game is getting cash, getting tech, and upgrading my peeps into whatever units are needed at the given moment. i just use probe teams to buy enemy armies and bases, and it's working really well for me.

me running FM is basically an experiment to see how i can handle it, since i've never used it. i want to make sure i know how to run it when i need to!

i just wish sven and dee would friggin sign treaties with me so i could make even more money! since they won't do it out of the goodness of their hears, i guess it's time to bribe.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Scipio Centaurus
Last I heard Qantaga, Zakharov VII were also interested in a retry of the University NCC (no-crawler challenge) succession variant. Can we add your name Blake?

Sure
But can we play Morgan instead of Zak? (Morgan is the most natural crawlerless faction, because of the high energy per base tile and commerce income)

Another possibility is a straight MP NCC game, though I need another MP game like I need a hole in my head...

Yes.. I dont have time for a MP game (re:sig) but could easily find time to play a Succession game, and probably report my turns too.

The key to becoming a NCC super-power is abusing the ED reducing facilities, particullary CP scraping. Your goal should be to build every mineral enhancing facility as soon as you get it. This really does wonders for your industry. Also orbitals are obviously very effective.

[Avenoct]

I'm in.

-Another NCC thread hijacker formerly known as General Smack

[johndmuller]

Hey, I need another hole in my head like I need another MP game too.

Count me in as well; either MP or succession. I can't say which I prefer, the succession is nice, but it does get to be a big hunk of time in the later portions of the game (I thought that the MM was as time consuming as the reporting).

Blake, maybe Morgan's naturalness would be a reason not to choose him. Miriam? Yang? That said, I do like playing Morgan better than Miriam.

Is X available this time, or will it be SMAC again? (I can never remember who doesn't have SMAX).

[Blake]

Well, Zak can pop-boom and Morgan cant, which almost defintely makes Zak stronger. Morgans easier to play in the sense it's less of a chore.
Also if you leave Morgans research priority on BUILD it makes for an interesting builder game.

Playing Yang or Miriam would tend to make the game quite militaristic, really, Miriam has no choice but to go out and hurt people. Yangs a bit better in that regard, but the Hive is such a powerhouse that it is quite hard to lose, also because the hive pretty much runs Police/Planned the whole time it isn't the most interesting for a succession game. Morgan has some interesting SE choices.


Btw, I have SMAX, but would prefer SMAC.

PS. Shouldn't this conversation be relocated to AC-MP ?

[Scipio Centaurus]

Any builder style faction is fine with me. I thought Zakharov VII was most interested in playing University... Does anybody have his email address? I will send emails to Arima and Qantaga to see if they want in. They may not be subscribed to this thread.

Also, does anyone want to set it up? I can, but if there is another volunteer, that will be dandy. It is nothing more than firing up a SMAC game with the appropriate starting conditions and then everyone is on the honor system to not build any crawlers. The alpha.txt can be modified to force this restriction, but then I think the game becomes a mod and all players must remember to swap alpha.txt files before and after playing their turns. Probably not worth the effort...

Blind research in addition to no crawlers is fine with me, though that might best be left to its own separate challenge game.

And yes, we should move this off to the MP forum. I'll start a thread here for signup and discussion

[Zakharov VII]

(On topic)

I used Free Market as Morgan, even with Wealth just because...I didn't have drone problems once I got VW + Rec Commons. With a hefty amount of psych, you can even GA under Free Market, bringing the MAXIMUM Economy rating (+1 Morgan, +1 Wealth, +2 FM, +1 GA, for the +5 maximum) and pop-booming. If you can skillfully diplomicize (I invented that word ), the commerce income will be obscene.

(Off topic)

My e-mail is at the thread you started, Scipio. I'll play any faction (played almost them all, and enjoyed them all), but University the faction I myself connect with most. Being able to pop-boom without GA and having excellent research doesn't hurt .

Z