Have you noticed this before?

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 05:13

First everyone should notice this screenshot is quite old.

Have you noticed how nation borderlines are drawn at sea? Looks like deepness of the sea affects them.

I edited this picture so it's easier to see the borderline and different levels of deepness in water. Everyone can see this light blue level next to the land, but then I draw blue lines to next deeper level and red lines to next deeper after that. The borderline is drawn to these blueline sea squares, but not to the red ones.

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 05:18

Ok, I just noticed the borderline is actually drawn at next deeper level after those with blue lines at the bottom left corner near the city. But look at bottom right part, doesn't it look rather odd borderline if you look where the city is? The border just follows those light blue squares.

Maybe we shouldn't analyze this old screens, just look at the very bottom of the screen. What is that crap?

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 06:00

Ok, here's another pic. Those borderlines just doesn't make any sense.

Provost Harrison · October 12, 2001, 06:14

I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if you controlled all of your coastal waters. I presume the rest would just become international waters which are free for movement for anyone.

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 06:24

But look at the second pic, it's very weird and in all the other screenshots, which I've been now looking, there's just normal straight borderlines, just like in land squares.

Grumbold · October 12, 2001, 06:29

The second one looks consistent to me. You control all the light and medium blue zones out as far as your culture border would normally extend. Some cities just have stronger culture so push the border out further.

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 06:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
The second one looks consistent to me. You control all the light and medium blue zones out as far as your culture border would normally extend. Some cities just have stronger culture so push the border out further.

It seems there's 4 levels of water. If you look top of the pic, you can see it controls one level 3 (4 is the deepest) sea square, but not at the left. That left part looks odd to me.

Stuie · October 12, 2001, 06:33

Yes, that was mentioned in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...098#post473098

My speculation is that your borders extending into the ocean take into account culture and ocean depth.

Provost Harrison · October 12, 2001, 06:33

Yep, I agree with Grumbold, this certainly looks to be the case. It makes sense as well...I presume that entering coastal waters with a unit would be considered a violation of a peace treaty as well, which has been a very grey area in SMAC...

Grumbold · October 12, 2001, 06:40

On second look there is one square of medium/dark blue near the top city that falls in the border too. Perhaps they have different costs depending on depth. Only a strong cultural city is going to 'own' any nearby deep water.

LaRusso · October 12, 2001, 06:45

actually, that is kinda nice. i like irregularly shaped borders

FrostyBoy · October 12, 2001, 06:45

The 3 types are coastal, sea and ocean, they can effect where your boats can/should sail

Grumbold · October 12, 2001, 06:48

So what is the fourth? The Deeps?

Grim Legacy · October 12, 2001, 06:54

As long as there are no ocean-cities, I have no objection against these concepts.

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 07:15

I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

Grim Legacy · October 12, 2001, 07:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Wexu
I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

Have you thought about other Civs exerting their influence? Their borders might push your back a bit, even if they do not touch. A similar thing happened in SMAC.

Wexu · October 12, 2001, 07:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy

Have you thought about other Civs exerting their influence? Their borders might push your back a bit, even if they do not touch. A similar thing happened in SMAC.

If you look that little map at bottom left corner of the pic you can see that other Civs shouldn't affect too much about these borderlines.

Stuie · October 12, 2001, 07:56

The "x" in the upper right corner of your screenshot is what convinces me (with 90% certainty...) that there is a relationship between culture and depth that determines how far out the border goes.

Besides borders and ship movement, I'm wondering what other effects the ocean depth will have. I know in SMAC the food/production/trade values were different for different depths of ocean squares. Think we'll see the same in Civ3?

Ozymandous · October 12, 2001, 08:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuie
The "x" in the upper right corner of your screenshot is what convinces me (with 90% certainty...) that there is a relationship between culture and depth that determines how far out the border goes.

Besides borders and ship movement, I'm wondering what other effects the ocean depth will have. I know in SMAC the food/production/trade values were different for different depths of ocean squares. Think we'll see the same in Civ3?

As long as other Civ's respect borders over ocean squares (unlike SMAC) I'll be happy.

As the engine in Civ3 is the same as used in SMAC it wouldn't be unrealistic to have different ocean depths have different attributes, although the best engine I have seen (graphically and game-play wise) for handling ocean depths was in the CtP series. Say what you want bad about the series, how they handled the ocean aspect of the game was pretty good, IMHO.

FrostyBoy · October 12, 2001, 09:41

:sigh: , lol, that 'fourth' is the fog, the bit you can't see, it's actually just the ocean. So there's no fourth

Grim Legacy · October 12, 2001, 09:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Wexu

If you look that little map at bottom left corner of the pic you can see that other Civs shouldn't affect too much about these borderlines.

Oh yes indeed. Hm well then I have no explanation except that these borders may be generated by a flawed algorithm in a pre-beta version of the game.

aaglo · October 12, 2001, 09:59

Quote:

By wexu: I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

In that picture the square with the red x on upper right is inside the city production radius (I mean it seems so), so it naturally belongs inside the nation's borders. And for the same reason the square "of same sea-level" with the red x on the left side doesn't belong inside the borders.

Or... is it possible that the culture rating (which expands the borders) can expand borders also downwards

(at sea, of course)

cassembler · October 12, 2001, 14:10

I wonder if mountains are treated a smilar fashon?

Sandman · October 12, 2001, 14:53

Harbours, ports and coastal fortresses may play a role in the depth to which your culture can spread.

A city without any marine improvements will only be able to claim the coastal waters, harbour enables sea claiming, and ports enable ocean claiming.

This is all rather cool, as you could possibly claim an important channel and keep your enemies from sending ships along it.

Additionally coastal forts now play a more active role, so they might have a ZOC.

Slax · October 12, 2001, 15:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandman
Harbours, ports and coastal fortresses may play a role in the depth to which your culture can spread.

A city without any marine improvements will only be able to claim the coastal waters, harbour enables sea claiming, and ports enable ocean claiming.

This is all rather cool, as you could possibly claim an important channel and keep your enemies from sending ships along it.

Additionally coastal forts now play a more active role, so they might have a ZOC.

Very smart post!

Slax · October 12, 2001, 16:26

I don't know if it was mentioned, but you can also see the effect of water depth on borders in the (very old) screenshot which says "American Despotism". Sorry, I don't have a link to it. My guess is that upon reaching a certain naval technology or culture level, deep water borders occur.