Civ of the Week: Russians

[Saint Marcus]

Somehow it doesn't seem fair

China's rider is 2 points higher than a knight, while Russia's cossack is only 1 point higher than a cavalry unit, and on top of this a +2 bonus on a medieval unit is a lot bigger than a +1 bonus on a industrial unit.

[Rosacrux]

On the ongoing debate, Russia as USSR, should not only be considered scientific but is along with USA the greatest power in science during the 20th century.

Before that, they had a couple of geniouses (as did every other nation, actually, at least in Europe) that have excelled in some fields.

But if we go into the 20th century... well, Russia is scientific/militaristic for sure - and Firaxis has shown us in every possible way (excluding the cossack - btw they suck as a UU - and wicked Catarina) that they have a applied the simple (simplistic, actually) theorema Russia=USSR.

Saying that the USSR was not a world leader in Physics, machinery, weapons, space, astrophysics, mathematics etc. etc. is stupid.

They also excelled in any form of art there is.

People, take off those blindfolds and face the truth, ok?

Originally posted by Red Khan

In one Russian air magazine, I read memories of a Soviet pilot who fought Americans during Korean War. He stated that at the end of the war they shooted down about 200 American fighter jets(sorry, forget the name of the plane), not counting the old WWII Mustangs, while loosing only 4 planes. Note: I read it in about 1994, when the Cold War was over, so I don't think it was patriotic propaganda.

Hey you better tell the USAF that they lost 200 planes. I don't think they know it yet and that war was 50 years ago.

Originally posted by worker

Popov invented Radio. Marconi take first patent on it after two month.

World Book Encyclopedia state that no one person can be called the invertor however Marconi of Italy sent the first radio communication signals in 1895

The same difference between nuclear and hydrogen bombs. American open nuclear age of mankinds, but hydrogen bomb was develop in USSR by academician Sakharov.

The US was the first to denote a Hydrogen Bomb and beat the Soviets by several months. Maybe we stole their.

And about rocketry. Ciolkovskiy in 20-s developed theory of space flight. He was first man who proved possibility of it by calculations.

Have you ever heard of Robert Goddard probability not. World Book Encyclopedia state His experiments with solid-and liquid-propellant rockets between 1909 and 1945 helpd lead to the development of intercontinental missiles, earth satellites, and the exploration of space. Goddard was the first to prove by test that a rocket works in a vacuum, the first to work out the mathematics of rocket action, and the first to develop rockets equipped with propellant pumps, gyro-controls, and instrumentation. Goddard foresaw many of the space flight ideas that later became reality. In his treatise, "A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes" (1919), he proposed trying to reach the moon by rocket.
Even the Germans Rocket people said they read and used Dr. Goddard theory in their WWII rocket program.
Dr. Goddard was American.

And I think all people in USA can answer : "Who is father of all american helicopters?"

Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky born (1889-1972) in Kiev, Ukraine not Russia. Came to the United States in 1919 and then flew the first Helicopters in 1939 as an American.

To Red Khan - I read this paper in this year. You are absolutely right. After WWII russian and american planes met at first time in Korea. This was great success of soviet pilots. Correlation of losses 30 : 1. Amerca lost this war.

The USAF had a 15 to 1 kill ratio in the Korean war. Hey since I'm a life member of the Air Force Assoc. I better write them and let them know that we lost in Korea. Hey how come if we lost we still have 40,000 troops there? Maybe they are not real troops and just the ghosts of the real troops.

After that they met again in Vietnam. I think all man remember result. In Vietnam soviet soldiers used S75 anti-aercraft system. This was shock for american pilots. This dispute is meaningless.

At the end of Vietnam war we had a 10 to 1 air-to-air kill ratio. Of course we lost that war to. Actually our Congress lost that war because on the battlefied the US won almost every battle.

Originally posted by Rosacrux

Saying that the USSR was not a world leader in Physics, machinery, weapons, space, astrophysics, mathematics etc. etc. is stupid.

They also excelled in any form of art there is.

People, take off those blindfolds and face the truth, ok?

The problem is that the Soviet propaganda has most people in the formal Soviet Union believing they did everything by themself without any help from the rest of the world.
And before you said the West does it to, read our newpaper and the like. You cannot kept a secret in the US anymore. He!! CNN has newmen on the ground in Aftghanistan.

Originally posted by JellyDonut
Expansionist/Scientific suits Russia perfectly.

Expansionist: They're the largest nation in the world!
Scientific: They made it into space first!

With a rocket No. With a sat. Yes. With a man Yes.

Originally posted by Dark Scorpion

heavy bombers were first invented in Russia. And the US didn't even kept with Russia until the 20th century! As a matter a fact before world wars the US was just a far village.

We tried to stay out of European problem and look what happen.
In Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft it state that in 1913 (Russia) Bolshio Bal'Tisky B flew but it was a trainer only.
In 1914 Sikorsky Ilya Mourometz A flew, it also was a trainer only.
In 1915 12 of Feb. Sikorsky Ilya Mourometz V flew for the first time and then was order as a bomber and could carry 1,150 lbs of bombs. In 1917 Sikorsky Ilya Mourometz E flew and could carry 1,760 lbs of bombs.
In 1915 no month given France flew the Voisin 5 and it carry 132 lbs of bombs. Also in 1915 no month given the French Farman F .40 and Caudron G.4 flew. The F.40 carried 110 lbs of bombs and the G.4 carried 249 lbs of bombs.
The British flew the RAF B.E.2c in 1914 and could carry 224 lbs of bombs.
The Germans flew the Siemens-Schuckert RI in 1915 and it could carry 830 lbs of bombs.
Italy flew the Caproni Ca. 32 in 1915 and it carried 3,000 lbs of bombs.
Russia may have invented the bomber but it look like Britain was the first country to used a plane as a bomber with their B.E. 2c.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by joseph1944
World Book Encyclopedia state that no one person can be called the invertor however Marconi of Italy sent the first radio communication signals in 1895


The US was the first to denote a Hydrogen Bomb and beat the Soviets by several months. Maybe we stole their.


Have you ever heard of Robert Goddard probability not. World Book Encyclopedia state His experiments with solid-and liquid-propellant rockets between 1909 and 1945 helpd lead to the development of intercontinental missiles, earth satellites, and the exploration of space. Goddard was the first to prove by test that a rocket works in a vacuum, the first to work out the mathematics of rocket action, and the first to develop rockets equipped with propellant pumps, gyro-controls, and instrumentation. Goddard foresaw many of the space flight ideas that later became reality. In his treatise, "A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes" (1919), he proposed trying to reach the moon by rocket.
Even the Germans Rocket people said they read and used Dr. Goddard theory in their WWII rocket program.
Dr. Goddard was American.


Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky born (1889-1972) in Kiev, Ukraine not Russia. Came to the United States in 1919 and then flew the first Helicopters in 1939 as an American.


The USAF had a 15 to 1 kill ratio in the Korean war. Hey since I'm a life member of the Air Force Assoc. I better write them and let them know that we lost in Korea. Hey how come if we lost we still have 40,000 troops there? Maybe they are not real troops and just the ghosts of the real troops.


At the end of Vietnam war we had a 10 to 1 air-to-air kill ratio. Of course we lost that war to. Actually our Congress lost that war because on the battlefied the US won almost every battle.

joseph, you are certainly a prolific spammer. propping up a post count a bit?

please check when ciolkovskiy died. that will be a revelation to you.
it is refreshing to know that you consider sikorsky a ukrainian. did you know that the first russian capital city was kiev?
as for your kills in vietnam, did you know that a high percentage of viet crashes were because viet pilots were losing consciousness? not enough food. anyway,you won that war and politicians lost it. they should have allowed for more napalm bombing and some more carpet bombing of hanoi. hell, a couple of nukes would sort the bastards out, but the stupid politicians yielded to the pressure of a bunch of hippies just wait a couple of weeks and you will have the opportunity to reverse all injustices done to the american (!?) people since 4000 BC

[Red Khan]

joseph1944
This argument is pointless. If I do research I can gave a whole bunch of resources prooving my point. The same is true for you. The only way to know the truth is to talk to a pilot who actually fought in the war, of course if he is not going to exagurate. Maybe that Soviet pilot exagurated too, who knows.
By the way, what's the name of the American plane that was MiG-15 counter-part? I remember it was something like Saber (beginnig with S, I'm sure)

CNN is a propaganda machine Stalin would dream of.
And hgh shool American History course too.

[krzysiek]

Originally posted by joseph1944 Have you ever heard of Robert Goddard probability not. World Book Encyclopedia state His experiments with solid-and liquid-propellant rockets between 1909 and 1945 helpd lead to the development of intercontinental missiles, earth satellites, and the exploration of space. Goddard was the first to prove by test that a rocket works in a vacuum, the first to work out the mathematics of rocket action, and the first to develop rockets equipped with propellant pumps, gyro-controls, and instrumentation. Goddard foresaw many of the space flight ideas that later became reality. In his treatise, "A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes" (1919), he proposed trying to reach the moon by rocket.
Even the Germans Rocket people said they read and used Dr. Goddard theory in their WWII rocket program.
Dr. Goddard was American.

Cio³kowski Konstantin Edwardowicz (1857-1935), russian scientist, POLISH origins. Founder of scientific basis of asturonautics.

During the years 1896-1912 created theory of rocket movement (see his work: Issledowanije mirowych prostranstw reaktiwnymi priborami (1903)). It includes famous Ciolkowski equation.
His other inventions (including theoretical models):
sattelite, new type of rocket engine, spacesuit, spacestation...

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by krzysiek
Cio³kowski Konstantin Edwardowicz (1857-1935), russian scientist, POLISH origins.

Oh my goodness

[datakodin]

Originally posted by LaRusso


Oh my goodness

Yes, yes, he was Polish.

BTW there are a lot famous Russian who are of Polish origin. Among them:
Felix Dzerzinsky, first head of KGB.
Konstantin Rokossowsky, famous general during WWII.

joseph1944
Are you US military?

Seriously speaking, our pilots had many problems in Korea. Also Soviet pilots had many problems during WWII. In Vietnam, the situation was better for us - us, not US.
Finally, in 1982 it was equal between Izraelis with US planes and Syrians with MiGs. Izraelis were leading until Syria used old MiG-21s. With new squadrons of MiG-23, Arabs retaliated. The final result was something like 42:46 I believe.

BTW how old are you? Can you imagine that it was time when Russians and Americains were allied? I am not sure it would be in futurt because there is too many blood between us - but it was.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by LaRusso

just wait a couple of weeks and you will have the opportunity to reverse all injustices done to the american (!?) people since 4000 BC

This post saved my day.

I still remember my first CivI game, nearly a decade ago. My Romans landed on the continent of the Americans and wiped them out.

They were a walkover, actually. Much harder to beat the Actecs.

Originally posted by Red Khan
joseph1944
The same is true for you. The only way to know the truth is to talk to a pilot who actually fought in the war, of course if he is not going to exagurate. Maybe that Soviet pilot exagurated too, who knows.
By the way, what's the name of the American plane that was MiG-15 counter-part? I remember it was something like Saber (beginnig with S, I'm sure)

CNN is a propaganda machine Stalin would dream of.
And hgh shool American History course too.

The plane is the F-86 Saber Jet. I have talk to some pilots over the years also.

Originally posted by LaRusso


joseph, you are certainly a prolific spammer. propping up a post count a bit?

please check when ciolkovskiy died. that will be a revelation to you.
it is refreshing to know that you consider sikorsky a ukrainian. did you know that the first russian capital city was kiev?
as for your kills in vietnam, did you know that a high percentage of viet crashes were because viet pilots were losing consciousness? not enough food. anyway,you won that war and politicians lost it. they should have allowed for more napalm bombing and some more carpet bombing of hanoi. hell, a couple of nukes would sort the bastards out, but the stupid politicians yielded to the pressure of a bunch of hippies just wait a couple of weeks and you will have the opportunity to reverse all injustices done to the american (!?) people since 4000 BC

LaRusso if you can remember past yesterday I never post a responce to one of your statement. I read most of your post with amusement however.
You are so anti-america that having a conversation with you would be poinless. You may or maynot feel you are an enemy of the United States, I don't care either way. However if I still worked for the Goverment I would turn over your e-mail address to my bosses and what ever happen, happens.
Oh btw I want to thank you for all the credit you give our CIA, that tells me the CIA is reaching out and touching people all over the world. I really think you missed that little part of history when those two internal spies that we had gave most of our agent names to Russia and a few other counties and the agents were killed. All so you missed when Jimmy Carter was President and he took the CIA almost to their knees, so they would not be able to carry on with their behavior before he was President. You really do not have to respond to this because I will not answer you.

Originally posted by datakodin

joseph1944
Are you US military?

US Navy Feb. 1962 - March 26, 1965
I worked for the Dept of Navy, Mare Island Naval Shipyard Aug. 9, 1965 to Nov. 3, 1995

Seriously speaking, our pilots had many problems in Korea. Also Soviet pilots had many problems during WWII. In Vietnam, the situation was better for us - us, not US.

At the start of Nam things did not go real well, however in the end (1973) we came around to 10 to 1 Kill ratio.

Finally, in 1982 it was equal between Izraelis with US planes and Syrians with MiGs. Izraelis were leading until Syria used old MiG-21s. With new squadrons of MiG-23, Arabs retaliated. The final result was something like 42:46 I believe.

I will let one of our Isralies friends talk about was happen.

BTW how old are you? Can you imagine that it was time when Russians and Americains were allied? I am not sure it would be in futurt because there is too many blood between us - but it was.

Age 57-6 mos-18 days
If Russia stays Demo. and after most/all formal Communist are dead (from old age) I think the US and Russia can be very good friends. I knew some Russian that live in Calif. and they were good people. My High School Art Teacher was a distant Cousin of Czar Nick. he had to leave when he was around 3 or 4 years of age because his Grandfather got word to leave now or died (1919/20).

Originally posted by krzysiek


Cio³kowski Konstantin Edwardowicz (1857-1935), russian scientist, POLISH origins. Founder of scientific basis of asturonautics.

During the years 1896-1912 created theory of rocket movement (see his work: Issledowanije mirowych prostranstw reaktiwnymi priborami (1903)). It includes famous Ciolkowski equation.
His other inventions (including theoretical models):
sattelite, new type of rocket engine, spacesuit, spacestation...

My Encyclopedia did not list his name, so I can not look him up. If you have an address on line I will look at it.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by joseph1944
However if I still worked for the Goverment I would turn over your e-mail address to my bosses and what ever happen, happens.

Now does this sound suspiciously like a threat?

However, if you are going to send emails with the names and adresses of everybody who opposes US hegemony to the CIA, you will down their server.

This could get you into serious trouble: Not quite understanding your good intention they might consider you some sort of undesirable.

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Now does this sound suspiciously like a threat?

However, if you are going to send emails with the names and adresses of everybody who opposes US hegemony to the CIA, you will down their server.

This could get you into serious trouble: Not quite understanding your good intention they might consider you some sort of undesirable.

Hey If I know the boys in Washington, they are already looking at this site and many more to see what happening in the World.
Heard any click on your phone line lately?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The problem is that the Soviet propaganda has most people in the formal Soviet Union believing they did everything by themself without any help from the rest of the world. .

Well...while this is true, the same is true here in the USA. American History textbooks present our story as if we invented civilization.

But, any culture will take credit for as much as they can. The problem is that science is cumulative. Nobody has ideas out of the blue, everything is built on what came before. So any argument about who invented what is fruitless unless you look at who developed the first practical uses. Cior-whateversky may have had early ideas for rocketry, but it was German scientists who first made the strongest practical advancements that eventually led to the space age. Hell, we could credit Jules Verne with inventing rocketry, if you like to use the logic in these posts.

As for the ludicrous assertions about American air casualties...

These numbers should be easy to find. But a Soviet-US kill ratio of 30:1 is absurd. 200 planes in one day??? Not a chance. If the USA had sustained that kind of casualties in one day, it would have been an absolute calamity that would have ended the war far sooner. I wouldn't trust the bragging of some Soviet pilot. Look for the statistics.

Cheers.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Actually Goddard is recognized as father of rocketry. He was the first to launch a rocket (as primitive as it was). The Germans (especially Von Braun) learned a great deal from him. When the American took Germany scientists after the war and asked them where they learned to make rockets, they said from your Goddard.

[datakodin]

Originally posted by joseph1944

At the start of Nam things did not go real well, however in the end (1973) we came around to 10 to 1 Kill ratio.

If Russia stays Demo. and after most/all formal Communist are dead (from old age) I think the US and Russia can be very good friends.

OK, joseph1944. I do not think it is a right forum to talk about Russian/US battles.

Just one point to be more clear. In Vietnam, you did not deal with us. Your counterparts were pilots from North Vietnam, certainly teached by Soviet instructors. You know the skill of Vietnam pilots was lower than skill of us.

Actually there is a list of direct air battles between Russian and US pilots. Your planes invaded too often in our country and we had to beat them. The results from this list are a little different from your stories about brave US boys who have killed everything and everybody. Can you imagine we were ready to down "Columbia" during its first flight? Our laser guns were ready and were waited for an order of government. Finally old donkeys from Politbureau were afraid and we have just followed chuttle with laser beam. As a result, your spacemen had actual head-ache whenever "Columbia" has passed above the Russian land.

Even now we kick your asses time to time. And sorry, we are going to do this in the future.

Regarding Ciolkowsky. I am not wondered your Encyclopedia does not have any mention about this man because it is most probably western Encyclopedia Try to come to Russian Federation somehow and visit great space ship museum in Kaluga city named after this person. It is better you will see by yourself his books and his ideas about rocketry.

One more. USA and USSR were allied when we were Communist country. WWII, do you remember? BTW I am not Commie but I do not feel well for USA. Do you know why? You are not fair to us.

Finally, nothing personal Me too, I know some Americains. Generally, you are good boys It is really pity we are enemies but it is real life

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Col Bigspear
Will the Mig be available as a normal unit?

Hopefully. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

It would be nice use it as AD in cities.
Okay, okay, perhaps it's still better to use it
at the battlefield (but not on the ground ).

Dan of Firaxis, could you confirm the Mig?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by datakodin

I am not wondered your Encyclopedia does not have any mention about this man because it is most probably western Encyclopedia

Or more likely to be an American one.
Even British encyclopedias are better than those from US.

Try to come to Russian Federation somehow and visit great space ship museum in Kaluga city named after this person.

Not to mention the "Space Town" (I can't recall the real
Russian name) outside Moscow.

Do you know why? You are not fair to us.

Even if I'm not Russian, I must agree with datakodin
that US hasn't always treated Russian as a
civilized nation. But this is more like OT.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Red Khan

CNN is a propaganda machine Stalin would dream of.

Nice one!

[krzysiek]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually Goddard is recognized as father of rocketry. He was the first to launch a rocket (as primitive as it was). The Germans (especially Von Braun) learned a great deal from him. When the American took Germany scientists after the war and asked them where they learned to make rockets, they said from your Goddard.

Goddard used Ciolkowski's extensive theoretical model for buliding and launching the rocket. We can say that Ciolkowski is a father and Goddard is a mother

See first paragraph here:
http://astro.kopernik.mielec.pl/biog/ciolkowski.html
Unfortunately the source is in Polish but I can't find any english source of information about Ciolkowski in the Internet.

[krzysiek]

Originally posted by joseph1944

My Encyclopedia did not list his name, so I can not look him up. If you have an address on line I will look at it.

I have a number of links in polish, for example Polish Encyclopedia (reliable source of information):
http://encyklopedia.pwn.pl/13434_1.html

I found only one english site using Google search, but I can't access it:
www.uranos.eu.org/biogr/ciolke.html

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by joseph1944

LaRusso if you can remember past yesterday I never post a responce to one of your statement. I read most of your post with amusement however.
You are so anti-america that having a conversation with you would be poinless. You may or maynot feel you are an enemy of the United States, I don't care either way. However if I still worked for the Goverment I would turn over your e-mail address to my bosses and what ever happen, happens.

Man, this deserves to be in my sig. I am really glad they sacked you from the Govt service

[redfox74]

http://russianscientists.com/history/

small selection of scientists, not the complete list

Tsiolkovski and Popov are there. But also Kalashnikov and something about vodka

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Ironwood

My tendency would be to make russa Religeous Expansionist.

Religeous? Hmm... sounds a bit weird to me.
If you're point is that by making the Russians
"religeous", we can bring the vodka aspect into
Civ III.