I Need Some Ideas...

Djugashvili · December 24, 1999, 22:09

Hey everybody, hows it going?
I new here so encourage me by responding to this post...
Anyway, I have always wanted to do an ambitious scenario about the Rise And Fall Of The USSR. It would start soon after the Civil War(1922) and end in 1991. Also, I would cut out WW2 as it would be too complicated. I have already started building a map, but the task at hand is waaay to large for me to use all my own crappy ideas.

Now, What I need from all you in InternetLand are some ideas and suggestions about this specific scen. idea. If any of you would care to help in the process, with art or something, let me know; I'll see what I can do. I have already come up with some good ideas and if you want to know what they are, ask, and your future will be as bright as the star of the Soviet Union...

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 17:57

Anybody?

Cam · December 25, 1999, 18:22

What's the game objective, and who are the tribes? I guess it's well set up for the traditional objectives of (a.) bloodlust in the name of unification, and (b.) space race. Are you going to be pursuing a Jules Verne type technology-based scenario? Think about the reasons as to why people will be attracted to the scenario in the first place? And "OK - what are your bright ideas?"

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 19:39

Alright, I'm glad someone asked.

I planned on making the scenario somewhat technological, the main goal would be to maintain a vast country with many ethnic groups and juggle foreign issues. It would be a combo of colonization(early), industrialization(early middle), research(late middle), and diplomacy(late) to see how long you could keep the USSR intact. The main conflicts would mostly be related to internal strife with small conquests possibly being made, but it wouldn't be easy. But if you think you could go for total domination, go right ahead. A very open-endeed scenario.

I started a map consisting of most of the soviet union, europe, and across a contracted Atlantic, there would be the East Us and Cuba, but I'm not sure I have to amke my own. The tribes would be:
-Soviet Union of course
-United States
-British Commonwealth
-East Europe
-West Europe
-Mid East
-Other
Barbarians=Independant States

There would be a special unit called 'Soviet Influence' or something that would be created through events that would 'capture' cities in e. europe after ww2, making them satellite states. Later, barbarians would get the same kind of units that could capture cities in the Soviet Bloc and claim independance if certain goals are not met by the human player.

I have somemore Ideas, and if anybody wants to hear them, post a message.

WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO PLAY THIS????

Cam · December 25, 1999, 20:13

Sounds very ambitious - best of luck with it!
I had assumed that you were dividing the USSR into its states (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, etc.), as the various tribes, and not taking on this semi-global approach. Thanks for clarifying that. China and Japan I guess would be included as 'other'?

As the A.I. hates 'world peace', I guess that you'll have a challenge in maintaining a defined plot that will see certain nations or national communities behave certain ways at certain times. Are you trying to replicate history, or will it take on a somewhat fictional tone (a kind of 'what if...?' scenario)?

If you've got more ideas that you'll like to report, I, for one, would be interested.

Hendrik the Great · December 25, 1999, 20:18

I reallt would like to play it. It sounds very interesting! I don't think there are many scenarios that look upon the world from that angle.

Change as much as possible!

It would be nice to see good new graphics.
But really good ones would do, too.

How will you reflect the indepence of all the colonies? By Barbarian attacks?
Have you thought about to include China? Afterall it is and was h u g e...
How will you include the WW2?

To implement the Space Race is a must I would say! And don't forget about that Cuban Missile Crisis!

Good luck and happy civing!

Oh, and Merry Christmas! Even if it is a bit late now...

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 20:24

I suppose I could perhaps divide the USSR into different countries, but that would mean that the Communist Party wouldn't control the whole state, resulting in unrealism. I was also planning on leaving China a Japan out of the map.

I think the plot would be pretty historically accurate up to a certain point in history, and then it would be up to you to see how long you can maintain stability.

I was thinking of dividing the game into several portions all with different files a la Red Front to allow much more detail. If Komrade Nemo(as I now call him)could reply to this post telling me how he did the DOS prompt thingy with the events and all, that would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway, yeah. I could divide it into Early Years, the Stalin Era, the Khrushchev Era, and then a few more, then the Post-Berlin Wall era or something, considering it ever falls...

Very ambitious, I know, but I can't pull it off without YOU! Post ideas unitl I tell you to stop! Not just Cam, EVERYBODY!!!

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 20:30

Hey, another post already!
Yeah, Hendrik, I was planning on the Space Race and the Cuban Missile Crisis being involved, but I'm not sure I can maintain the level of detail I want on the map w/ China included.

Don't worry; I am a severe advocator of changing things. In my past attempts at a scenario (which were postponed indefinatley for reasons I'd rather not discuss), I changed all the icons, units, advice files, rules, city lists, labels, and anything else I could find. Don't worry about the change; worry about the actual artwork. I want to do my own art, but I suck. I still need help...

Like I said, I plan to skip over WW2. You wanta good WW2 in russia scenario, go directly to Red Front. Period.

Finally, Yes, Independence would be from barbarian attacks.
[This message has been edited by Djugashvili (edited December 25, 1999).]

Cam · December 25, 1999, 21:13

Djugashvili,

Thanks for your quick response.

Sino influence

You can always create barbarian units I guess to represent the occasional conflict with the Chinese and still use events to outline the impact of Chairman Mao et al.

Internal relations

Just an idea, but I think that you could do away with the British and include them with Western Europe / Allied / NATO (and merge Canada with the USA to create a North American tribe) - leaving an extra nation for use. You could then have a 'Northern USSR' and a 'Southern USSR' that are allied-worshipful (also use good friendly slots - e.g. the Babylonians'). It would be in the player's best interest to keep this alliance alive for various reasons. If they were ever to go to war, the effects could be felt by Wonders going obsolete, terrain modifications, negative change money events, and so on. Just a thought.

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 21:18

Some good ideas, Cam, but how would the SSRs be split? North and South SSRs have no historical connections (i.e., they were never designated as such). And what about the times when all the countries of Europe weren't allied? What about when NATO was only a twinkle in FDR's eye? Remember, this should start around 1922; the world was alot different back then.

Very constructive, though. Excellent Progress I can see already

------------------
"When You Kill One, It Is A Tragedy. When You Kill 10 Million, It Is A Statistic"
-Comrade Stalin

Hendrik the Great · December 25, 1999, 22:03

You could in order to show the internal struggle leave out all wonders and technologies that make people happy and then, perhaps after renaming them, make them primary research goals. Or on the right time make a happy wonder obsolete which would result in massive to total unrest in the population. It would cause havoc in the economy, too if it goes on long enough. Say a few cities would remain calm(by wonder or so), thus loyal to the state, and could then send in troops to the rebelling cities to install marshal law.
Furthermore, rebels could pop up near the cities in unrest.

Make keeping the people happy very difficult by using the appropiate technologies and wonders.

To split the USSR make sure a barbarian unit captures the capitol of it. Then there would be real civil war.
You would have to modefy the other civs slots and there could only be 6 civs so the USSR can split.

Djugashvili · December 25, 1999, 22:08

Hendrik! That is BRILLIANT! You are my new Commissar of Intelligence. Keep 'em comin'...

Cam · December 26, 1999, 00:56

Djugashvili,

Thanks for your feedback.

It kind of depends upon the structure of the scenario that you make as to how some of these matters are handled.

As for having an alliance with an A.I. tribe, it's my understanding that there were some pretty significant cultural rifts within the USSR, not the least of which being the areas to the south-west that had an Islamic tradition. It was this specifically that I had in mind. Also, when the revolution came, I thought that there was a 'red' faction and a 'white' faction? With that said, my poor knowledge of Soviet history borders on the laughable - so I'll take your lead on any of these historical issues. Anyway, I thought it may be of value to have an A.I. tribe to ally with so you can exchange tech's, maps, and other benefits. As before, just a thought.

Djugashvili · December 26, 1999, 01:50

What you are saying makes alot of sense to me...I have some of reckoning to do. Perhaps, instead of making seperate civs for the different cultures of the Soviet Union, I could make different units, wonders, techs?? Or maybe I COULD split the USSR...

Oh, and this scenario presumably starts after the revolution of 1917, after the 'whites' are defeated, so they aren't a factor.
[This message has been edited by Djugashvili (edited December 26, 1999).]

December 26, 1999, 02:48

Hmmmm....interesting....this idea reminds me a lot of a scenario I was playtesting about Caesar's Empire from Civfan. Here's what I think....

1. Use TOT for the map switching ability. This way, you can have a map that has the different tribes you must conquer first, and later switch to a larger map that represents the foreign nations you must deal with. The only problem is the names of the Nations later on.

2. Since this would be a multiple-part scenario, you automatically have to use the extra space provided with multiple files. The unification portion should, IMHO, be controlled through events by sending the player on "Missions" through each future Socialist Republic. I'm not the most accurate historian...but perhaps even sending the player on a mission that is doomed to fail (perhaps in the east or south?), just to add a little something to it.

3. After the unification part, things should be less restraining, allowing the player to do whatever he/she (If there are any...

) would like to achieve in foriegn policies. Industrialization should definately be a path to take, and you could rename Marketplaces and Banks to things like Mills and Processiing Plants so that you could make money instead of just added production. Wonders would definately help here too.

4. I think that for the countries, there should be,

Soviet Union
United States
Germany + Italy
Britain + France
China
Arabs/Muslims
Neutrals
Hindus (Dunno what else you need)
Barbs (for events or just cheap things to take in Eastern Europe)

5. The map you could use could be the North Pole map that Mike D and I were using for a Cold War scenario we were making together. That would show all the countries you would need to show for international relations.

6. Definately make WWII avoidable! It would be very tough to simulate on a map that shows so many countries. You could start it if you wanted to, but I DEFINATELY would not reccomend it.

Just a few thoughts, but they all revolve around TOT. You do have it don't you?

Djugashvili · December 26, 1999, 02:53

That's the funny thing: I DON'T.
But I shall get it, soon.

And, My God! What thought is going into these responses! I better get busy...
to bad its 2 in the morning and I need some sleep.

Great Posts. Need More.

Cam · December 26, 1999, 03:33

Djugashvili - just to clarify something - don't feel obliged to pursue a structure with a 'split USSR' on the basis of my initial uncertainty over how you were setting up the game! I just envisaged that it was going to be about unifying the USSR and keeping the more immediate neighbours off your back. The whole multi-tribe USSR proposal was really just an idea that stemmed from this misunderstanding, and for all intents and purposes may be totally impractical.

Fast_Eddie's suggestion that it be set up as a Test of Time scenario also does make sense, although you should be able to still construct a good game with the FW version of Civ2.

Djugashvili · December 26, 1999, 03:40

I figure that if I am to make a scenario this grande, I might as well do it with the latest technology available. I'll pick up a copy of ToT with money I got for Christmas (thank you, Grandma!)and see if I can figure it out soon enough to make my scenario using that. This is going to be great.

And your idea about what the plot would be is pretty much it, with a few twists.
[This message has been edited by Djugashvili (edited December 26, 1999).]

Hendrik the Great · December 26, 1999, 08:26

In order to alllow more accuracy couldn't you just make 3 scenarios? I mean make them Episodes of a Triology.
Part1 : 1922 up to 1939
Part2 : 1945 up to the beginning of the Space Race
Part : Space Race to Present; perhaps go a few years into the future, too. Then we could experience how it would be like if...

If you choose to do so it would allow you to use more units for each of the time periods and more technologies since you basicly have 3 scenarios then that belong together.

Most of the work basis for the 3 scenarios could very indentical.

I hope this helps!
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited December 26, 1999).]

Captain Nemo · December 26, 1999, 16:11

I replied to your question about the events modification via the .bat file in your thread on the Scenario League. The credit for this goes to Mike Jeszenka; he explained how to do it to me.

I think there is some real merit to the multi-part, multi-map approach:

1917-1925 "Unification" could be played exclusively on a Soviet map with "local" enemies such as the Whites, the Baltic States, Poland and ethnic factions/warlords within the Soviet Union. External influence should be in the form of blockades and help to the Whites from US/UK/France... Maybe an expeditionary force just after the Revolution.
It could include the extrication of the Soviet Union from WWI with options of peace settlement with the Germans or continued War against the Germans?
Somehow the results achieved in part one would need to be exported into part 2 played on a larger scale map with differents civs... That's the tricky part. I don't know what the options are in ToT as far as switching maps?
Has anyone decoded the .sav files and know how to edit them? I have played around with them to try to edit out killed units on the casualty board and change attributes of cities and add Civs to a game in progress. I was only successful in editing the city styles, other editing attempts resulted in the program crashing.
What I was thinking is to import the city ownership, money, and tech. advances from the first part to the second via a small utility program so the second game would start where the first left off. But with all new goals and foes.

1926-1935 "Building of the Soviet Union". Strictly a peaceful technology/ industrialization race against the capitalist world...

1936-1945 "Worlds at War" Spain, Finland, World War II. I don't see how you can leave out this step that took the Soviet Union from an isolated Communist nation to one of the World's two great superpowers. WWII was the catalyst that forged the Soviet Union. Spain was a first "attempt" to export Communism and a rallying cry for idealistic Communists around the World. Finland was the beginning of Soviet expansionism.
I think a more "restrained version" of WWII (Not a tactical level rendition like Red Front) in the Soviet Union would be in order.

1946-1988? "USSR as a World Power" (Or "The Evil Empire", R. Reagan, or "Cold War") Full blown world map: 7 nations: Soviet Union, China, USA, East Block, Nato, Neutrals, "Unstable nations" + barbarians also representing some areas up for grabs. The "Unstable nations" would be the "swing nations, target of bribing, negotiations etc... Goal would be to build, capture, influence, bribe your way to greatness without triggering an all-out nuclear war.

A lot of the work for this "Superscenario" is already done as there are versions of Cold War and WWII and the Russian Civil War already existing... But how could it all be linked into one playable game?

Alex has a very good scenario, never released, for the Russian Civil War 1917-1925 with fantastic units and lots of very special events... It is not finished yet and there were some playability issues but you might want to contact him and see what he thinks.

Djugashvili · December 26, 1999, 16:53

Damn, your good.

Thanks for the insight, Komrade. Yeah, I'm not sure how I can incorporate WW2 into it, but I'll work with it. I'm getting ToT today, I hope, and I'll get started. This is going to take a looong time...

...but it's something I really want to do.

Mao · December 27, 1999, 01:23

Djugashvili,

I'd love to playtest it. Maybe you should start a thread at SLeague too about this.

Mao · December 27, 1999, 01:24

It's for ToT? Never mind.

Djugashvili · December 27, 1999, 01:27

Mao, I haven't finalized ANYTHING yet, but I'm really thinking ToT. Why not? If it's because you don't have it, I don't don't have it yet either, so don't feel bad.

And I'll probably move this to SLeague if there's THIS much interest...

lmstoudt · December 27, 1999, 02:05

Instead of multi-maps, how about this, to insure continuity: one map & one set of rules.txt, units.gif, events.txt, etc. for each part of the mega-scenario. After the end of the first part, instruct the player to rename all the files appropriately, & there you go. You'd be in for some really complex programming to make it seamless, but I think its do-able.

Djugashvili · December 27, 1999, 02:14

That's exactly what I originally planned on doing, but with the DOS thing Komrade Nemo told me about. I'm not sure of my programming capabilities, and what Nemo was saying about the different maps sounded pretty cool.

I'm going to have to make a final decision on this later today; it'll be the first big decision so far.

But until I do, my mind is open...

Hendrik the Great · December 27, 1999, 07:30

What a good night sleep can do for you...

In order to show the economic decay you can give the USSR wonders like Hoover Damm, Adam Smith, and wonders that are good for production or perhaps also some which are good for science and then let them become obsolete with time. Their impact could be devastating...

Another idea: Is it possible to make factories, manufacturing plants and power station become obsolete? If it is you can use this also to show the ongoing decay of the industry.
If you can discover certain techs or build certain wonders you could prevent that from happening. As far as I know something like this can be done with ToT.

Djugashvili · December 27, 1999, 16:05

Interest in this is especially high, I have found out, so I think I'll move this thread to the more-posted-and-looked-at Scenario League forum. Continue with the great ideas there, komrades.