c189# HAVE A LITTLE FAITH

[CobraA1]

Originally posted by Crouchback


Firaxis could end most of the flame war by making a simple commitment to make MP a free download.The FAQ's blatant side stepping of the issues isn't a good thing. Dan has done a fantastic job keeping us interested and excited with what little he has at his disposal, but this is a PR fiasco for the company because they are too concerned to maintain the illusion of mystery. We're reasonable people, but it is our hard earned cash they want which could go to any number of game publishers this holiday.

Infogrames may have more control over the distribution of MP than Firaxis . . .

I don't know enough about the relationship between Firaxis and Infogrames to make an educated reply. Maybe Firaxis simply hasn't thought out how they're going to distribute MP yet, but I'm guessing it would be a patch or add-on. I'm hoping it'll be free like everybody else.

Since Dan and the others have given us an astounding amount of information about the other aspects of the game, I'm sure they have a good reason for this. I'm hopelessly optimistic .

[orange]

yes actually. That is the main reason i wrote the column. I wanted to be sure that the actions of a few don't screw us all over. I've been here for a year and a half now, and I spent half a year pouring ideas, thought, and time into what I wanted to see in Civ III and there's a few thousand others who have done the same. I don't want Apolyton's buddy buddy relationship with Firaxis to be ruined. They've been to good to us, and don't deserve to put up with ****. They've ALWAYS asked us for suggestions, we have a whole forum dedicated to it! They have a web site up for civers, we're the first people they inform about things. Yet people just take that for granted now that the game's here and may not be the absolutely perfect dream they had for Civ III. I trust Sid and Firaxis to make the game. I loved Civ, I wasn't let down by Civ II, and I expect to be wowed by Civ III as I already have been.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by cyclotron7


The polls aren't invalid; the people's opinions are.

Just invalid because the conflit with your view? What a voice of reason

[orange]

You're a ****er. And that is right.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by orange
You're a ****er. And that is right.

No im an infidel because I dont follow mindless jihads Im just waiting for haters to drag me to some soccer field and put a round in me

[aiin]

It's like watching a train wreck, i'm wondering how many ways people can go about complaining about MP and PR.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, and btw, I really enjoyed the column.

If there is any constructive criticism left on this forum, it is drowned out by incessant whining

[cassembler]

Yeah I've been looking FOREVER for another thread about the whole Optimist vs Pesimist argument... Whew, I really didn't think that we've argued enough about it yet.

THE SOLUTION TO ALL OF IT:
If you don't like the criticism (aka complaining) then find another message board.

If you don't like the praise (aka blind faith) then find another message board.

If you don't want to buy Civ3, then don't.

If you do, then do.

-------------------------------------

If you're looking to kill time until Civ3 comes out, the yeah, argument is fun.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.
If you're not, then don't.

[jones]

Crazy. You "blind faith"-ers make me sick, too. Next time you say something foolish, and someone agrees with you rather than pointing out your mistake and correcting you, ask yourself "Why did that just happen?"

jones

"Never argue with a man who buys his ink by the gallon"
-??

[Sarxis]

eohian, I did not mean offense at you personally, and my comment was more a defensive reflex against the generalised statement you made at the end of your post. Your follow up post is right on The only reason I made my comment against your original post was to clarify that no one has any obligation to anyone as far as CivIII is concerened, except, as you said, if Firaxis and Infogrames wishes to retain consumer patronage, they would go out of their way to satisfy their customers (which they have done most of the time from my perspective).

And my qualms about the whole 'MP Liberation Movement' are not based upon the arguments presented by Yin and others, but rather the witty side remarks that are meant as insults and flames against those posters that openly disagree with them. In fact, I DO agree that the Firaxis PR people (who?) would be able to diffuse the Great Apolyton Civil War by simply posting a small explanation, apology, or SOMETHING concerning the exclusion of MP in the initial CivIII release.

At the same time, I still feel that Firaxis/Infogrames (F/I) has no obligation- legal or otherwise- to explain themselves concerning MP (which in fact, they have done in some of the recent interviews of Firaxians, albeit, in very short form).

I guess what the MP liberation movement really wants is an apology from F/I for so called 'misleading advertising' that assumed MP would be in CivIII on the 30th. I am quite certain that the online stores that 'misrepresented' CivIII in this respect had a footnote stating the 'Subject to Change' disclaimer. Besides an apology, I can't see what else the MP Liberation Movement could hope for. A boycott? Not likely.

[kittenOFchaos]

Yin = korean gamer stereotype...nuff said.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by yin26

Been a while since I had a good, long gag reflex. Thanks.

Yin, you beat me to it again!

When I read this column, it reminded me of Darth Vader:
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

[Simpleton]

Originally posted by yin26


Ummm: BECAUSE WE B!ITHCED ABOUT IT! Good Lord...

All you 'shut up and don't complain' types owe those of us who made our dissatisfaction plainly clear a great deal, the way I see it. Left up to you, we'd still have 8 civs, ICS, and a number of horrid things in Civ.



Been a while since I had a good, long gag reflex. Thanks.

I was one of the people who agreed about being pessimistic about the Civ3, which I have since recanted. (I now think think they'll pull it off!)
However, I am sick and tired of all this complaining, which it was it is. Most of these such posts are not constructive but rather just plain old ranting!!
I find it silly that you and the likes of you take so much credit for Civ3! Did you spend a couple of years making this game? Did you help design the original Civ or Civ2 where most of the ideas came from? What effort did you, other than post a few messages on this site indicating things you would like?
Comon!!! This is just childish. Sure now and then it's ok to vent like "Hey I don't like that feature" or "Firaxis really didn't listen" but this endless whining!! God it's like I'm in a elementary school message board!!!!
This is not our game it is Firaxis'. As Orange said, they are under no obligation to cater to us. I think we are all lucky that they included as many suggestions as they did.
To those of you who are b!tching this is obviously causing you too much stress. Take a break from this board and get a life! IT'S JUST A FRIGGIN GAME!!!

[Fredric Drum]

Ok, listen. CIV III will most likely be the greatest game ever. And if it isn't, it's now October 14 and TOO LATE to do anything about it! So just wait for the game and try it. If it stinks, don't play it anymore. It's a game. If it's great, then fine, play the game. If it stinks, Firaxis will be punished by lousy sales figures, and that should be enough, it's a free world and a free market.

Someone please close this thread!

BTW: I totally agree with CASSEMBLER!


Fred

[yin26]

and you are the judge and jury of whether Firaxis is doing a good job or not?

Ah, anybody want to clue him in on the irony there?

Yin = korean gamer stereotype...nuff said.

Ah, anybody want to take this racist dirtbag out back and tell him my nationality?

What effort did you, other than post a few messages on this site indicating things you would like?

LOL! Oh for God sakes! This is a gem. Just how many of these new people showing up are this clueless? I'm beginning to see the problem. Every other poster these days just simply is talking out of his butt: "Hey, since when did Poly even try in some organized way to help Firaxis?"

I don't see any reason educating these people when they breeze in here two years after ignoring this forum and claim to know how we got where we are.

Pathetic.

[cassembler]

There should be a way to post a thread that only kings can post on or something... I would be an exception, of course, because I'm an SPer with sympathy for the MPer.

[yin26]

LOL...I'm not an elitist, and I hate post counts, actually. But some of the ignorance here regarding what POLY has done to help Firaxis get good ideas and feedback is truly disgusting.

[orange]

Originally posted by yin26
Ah, anybody want to clue him in on the irony there?

Guess what pal, you alone are NOT the judge and jury of whether this game was a success or not. You've been *****ing before it came out, and you'll continue to ***** afterwards for the sake of pride. It's the public that decides if the game is good or not, and quite frankly, the majority of posters here have not agreed with you in the past, and it's damn likely they won't agree with you in mid November when they're glued to their screens screaming to the wife "Just one more turn!"

[orange]

Yes - the cynics are looking for the most trivial of aspects to ***** about for *****ing's sake! 50 78.12%
No - most complaints are legit beefs against Firaxis and/or changes in the gameplay. 14 21.88%

[yin26]

Guess what pal, you alone are NOT the judge and jury of whether this game was a success or not.

Really? You're a true scholar, Orange.

And you are not the judge, either. Get it?

You've been *****ing before it came out, and you'll continue to ***** afterwards for the sake of pride.

No. I've done quite a bit more helping than complaining, but you don't really care about facts, I suppose. And if anybody's pride is at stake in this thread, it seems to be yours.

the majority of posters here have not agreed with you in the past,

And if they are blind hero worshippers like you who stifle open discussions on what is going well or not, then I wear that claim with a badge of honor.

Fact is, I've personally done more to help Civ 3 than any of your brown-nosing after the fact ever will. And along with my efforts were the efforts of several simply outstanding posters here who truly helped make Civ 3 better.

Culture, ICS-fixes, Resources...on and on all came from HERE...while you were busy thinking up clever ways to tell us to shut up after all the work was done. You're brilliant.

Of course, you'll just load the game and in your ignorance say: "Look. The game is great despite you whiners."

Orange pally: The whiner, the vocal people fighting for a better game, help give you some of the best part of the game.

Talk about arrogant and ungrateful.

[CobraA1]

Ah, anybody want to take this racist dirtbag out back and tell him my nationality?

Sure! I hate racism, stereotyping, and all forms of such.

Read the left hand side of Yin's posts carefully - "From Los Angeles" - Last I heard, L.A. was in the U.S.A. Yin is an American.

It doesn't matter where you're from anyway. We're all the same race - the human race.

[CobraA1]

Yin, do you have any evidence to support your claims that you have helped Civ III any more than anybody else? Otherwise, you should retract your claim.

Same with your claim that we are "blind hero worshippers."

[yin26]

More than Orange? (that was my claim) Go find the two versions of The List sent to Firaxis when the game was still very much up in the air. And I don't care to mention numerous other things.

And as for blind hero worshippers: I didn't say that about you, did I? I said it about orange and anybody who shares his "Sid is God" garbage in order to stifle criticism. However, if you do share that view, then I am saying that about you, too.

[CobraA1]

I should read more carefully.

Hmm . . .

Working in Korea, I've seen the importance of a DMZ as a means both of deterrence and potential diplomatic disaster. Such situations would add great depth to the game. (Yin).

The only quote I see from Yin about borders in the first list.


"Bell" has said more about borders . . .

7.3) "Yin's 3rd Regiment consisting of 2 light-armored tanks, a Stealth bomber, and 4 infantry engaged China's 53rd Elite Patrol Division, consisting of some rock throwers and a random guy with a small caliber handgun. The battle, which took place near Death Valley Ridge, lasted 3 days. Yin's 3rd Regiment lost its bomber when the random guy with a gun got a lucky shot, but the 53rd Elite Patrol is no more. In other news, Yin's Empire forces a heavy trading embargo on the Greeks, rendering the Greek war machine virtually powerless. The stock market continued to fall today at the news that Yin and China seem prepared for war" (yin26).

Oh, yes! An imaginary scenario! The only thing it serves to do is to point out the absurdity of the unit imbalance (gun guy taking out stealth bomber) in earlier games.

Don't see much else in the first list about your "contributions."

Oh, yeah - you wrote the introduction, and you show up on the list of "THREAD MASTERS." Congratualations.

Where's the second list?

I guess you're right - I don't see Orange's name anywhere.

And no, I don't believe Sid is God.

[orange]

Fact is, I've personally done more to help Civ 3 than any of your brown-nosing after the fact ever will

Brown noser nothing. What do I or anyone have to gain from brown nosing? Do you think I expect a check from Firaxis, or a free copy of the game? You're getting desparate.

you seem to forget that I too have been here for quite a while. I posted like mad from February until June or so, and gradually migrated to Off-Topic. I came up with some ideas myself, stuff I see in the game today. But I'm not going to 'claim' them or pretend that it's my ideas in this game. It's a collection of APOLYTON'S visions for the game, and even moreso, the Firaxis staff's vision for this game. W as posters have ALL influenced this game, don't dare try to take credit.

I once had a tremendous amount of respect for you as a moderator, as a person, and as a man with some good ideas and a good head on his shoulders. However, for some reason, I come back to Civ III General and here you are, after having lost your job as moderator, and after having turned your back on Civ III and Firaxis BEFORE this MP fiasco ever surfaced acting like a complete idiot. What happened to you?

Seems to me, you've become bitter, because you saw Civ III as you wanted it to be, and it's not going to be the vision you had in mind. And now you're making ridiculous statements that only make you look like a conceited washed up *****. I have respect for Firaxis because they put up with *******s like you, and still keep our community informed. You don't deserve my respect. You don't deserve Firaxis's respect. And you sure as hell don't deserve the respect of anyone on this forum. Not anymore.

[Simpleton]

Originally posted by yin26
LOL! Oh for God sakes! This is a gem. Just how many of these new people showing up are this clueless? I'm beginning to see the problem. Every other poster these days just simply is talking out of his butt: "Hey, since when did Poly even try in some organized way to help Firaxis?"

I don't see any reason educating these people when they breeze in here two years after ignoring this forum and claim to know how we got where we are.

Pathetic.

You make my point perfectly. All the "work" here has been done on this message board not programming or designing the game. It's easy to sit back and say Firaxis should put this or that into Civ3 BUT it's a whole other thing to sit down and program it, balance it, make the AI use it well, and still have it be enjoyable.

Hey I don't dislike you Yin or other negativists I just could do with out the constant negative attitude. I mean I would like to see something said by the Negativists about a part of Civ3 that they like. I mean by your own admission you and other old-timer Apolyteers have contributed much to this game so there must be something you like about it. If there isn't anything you like/will like about Civ3 then why frequent the Civ3 message board? I don't like AOE but I don't go to their message boards and trash the game.

PS: I propose a truce between the "Negativists" and the "Others".

[orange]

when the game comes out...

We'll be going
While they go

[orange]

Originally posted by yin26
Money-driven means this: If the people to whom they are marketing the game passively sit by and say NOTHING when announcements of 8 civs, etc., are made, they conclude that: "If the harcore segment of the market isn't raising a fuss, we have a green light."

Hey man, I was the first guy out there complaining when I heard Eight Civs. But there's a difference between complaining and being an ass. You go above and beyond the latter. Sickening.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by yin26
No. I've done quite a bit more helping than complaining, but you don't really care about facts, I suppose. And if anybody's pride is at stake in this thread, it seems to be yours.

You did once but now all you do is try and tear it down. Yours is the pride that seems to be at stake. Just because Firaxis isnt doing it the way you want you throw a tantrem like a little kid.

Originally posted by yin26
Fact is, I've personally done more to help Civ 3 than any of your brown-nosing after the fact ever will.

Theres that ego everyone loves. You've also done more to wreck the game than him (and just about everyone else) but your too wrapped up in yourself to even see it. Sad.

Originally posted by yin26
Orange pally: The whiner, the vocal people fighting for a better game, help give you some of the best part of the game.

Haha what a load of crap. Now you try and paint yourself as everyones savior. Man you are really out of touch. You showed your true colors when you posted this:

Originally posted by yin26
If this thread keeps just $1 extra from going to Firaxis, I'll be more than happy

Like I said before, its personal with you. Firaxis did something you didnt like and your going to do whatever you can to hurt them. Your so mad you cant even see what your acting like. Bleeding soul becomes a bitter mind dude, you need to fix yours.

[yin26]

I have said publically many many times that the List contained almost NO ideas of my own. If you had been around, you'd know that well. But the List likely never would have been made without me and a few key people.

Sorry. That's just the facts. Deny them if you will.

Take that for what you will. The damn thing was tabbed and passed around the Firaxis office before some of the people around here even knew Firaxis was making the game.

Me as savior? Hardly. Me as somebody who damn-well has earned the right to complain loudly when Firaxis repeatedly dodges an important question, leaks out information but won't confirm it, etc.? Damn straight.

And this is a forum. If you don't like my posts. Pack your bags 'cause I ain't going away until *I* feel like it. In fact, a$$-kissing articles like Orangie's here will KEEP me here. Consider that.

Finally, Orange: Are YOU taking credit for 16 civs? What...not enough faith in Our Lord and Father Sid? How sick. (...hmmm, starting to see the point yet?...). Your big mistake was to mention my thread, which is a legitimate comment against a legimitate PR mistake, with another thread that used bad language and was simply rude in a personal way toward particular people at Firaxis.

My thread was directed toward the company in general. And a great number of people have similar feelings that Firaxis blew it on that one. And, yes, as a result I stand by my statement that if Firaxis loses some money for such a purposefuly mishandling of PR, then:

I will be happy. Why? 'Cause maybe they'll think to do better next time. Crazy thought, eh?