Why The Crown of Aragon SHOULD be included in a expansion pack

[Rosacrux]

Ok, my friend, I am a great fan of Catalunia myself (Barca!!!!) and I think Real (and all the royal scum) suck heavily... but stating that Aragon should be in over Spain... is plain silly.

Actually, it is quite easy to play a game with the Kingdom or Aragon: Customize!!! Don't just say "include Aragon", it sounds silly.

I being the great fan of ancient Greece I am, plan on customizing all civs, to play a game on a Greece map with all great city-states:

Athens, Sparta, Argos, Thessalon Koinon, Macedonia Kingdom, Megara, Syracusae, Rhodion Koinon, Ierapytna, Korinth, Mandineia, Tegea, Selinus...

You can do whatever you want with the editing tools, seize those pointless campaings...

[LoD]

This small controversial with LoD remembers me something. In Spain is very common say to all the catalans (I'm one), valencians and baleraicans "POLACO", polaco is a very despective insult to say to us that we speak something horrible, that we are always making problems...

"Polaco" is the spanish word for "Polish". That's all.

What's your point?

[Shaka Naldur]

you should learn something about history guys, that you don´t know what the Crown of Aragon was it doesn´t mean it wasn´t important

-the Crown of Aragon was for a long period of time the most important country of the middle ages.
-Valencia its capital for a while, was the biggest city in Europe.
-Fernando the Catholic, was king of Aragon and not from Spain.
-Athen was an Aragonian city for almost a century

if you want to know something else ask Xarxo or me

Xarxo, why don´t you post in the Spanish Apolyton Forum??

[XarXo]

Finally a light in the ignorance fog! Thanks Shaka Naldur!!

Also I have to say that "SPANIARDS" doesn't exists, the traditional starter division of the Iberian Peninsulae is:

Iberians at east (catalans/valencians/murcians/andalusians)

Celtiberians (or "hispanics") at te rest (aragonese, castillians, etc...)

Celts (galicians and coastal asturians)

So, yet in the first moment, we were different!!

About another reply:

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Ok, my friend, I am a great fan of Catalunia myself (Barca!!!!) and I think Real (and all the royal scum) suck heavily... but stating that Aragon should be in over Spain... is plain silly.

Actually, it is quite easy to play a game with the Kingdom or Aragon: Customize!!! Don't just say "include Aragon", it sounds silly.

Thanks a lot! But I'm *NOT* speaking of Catalonia! The Crown of Aragon includes the Valencian Country, Kingdom of Aragon and Balearic Islands (in a major vision). Catalonia is a 1/4 of the total but not the unique!


I dont't want a "silly inlude it", I'm speaking of include The C. of A. coz if the FIRAXIS guys included a stupid allopetic amount of barbarian like Iroquois in the game, so, they can make an expansion with great civs in middle ages (like The Conquerors in Age of Empires II), including (some of them) Incas (*sic*), Castillians, Portuguese and my civ.

My civ isn't Andorra or San Marino, is the 5th industrial node in EUROPE! (València-Barcelona-Saragossa-Perpinyà-Palma de Mallorca).

Probably in this game we'll have MORE THAN ONE expansion pack, so... Why not? I don't want make a custom civ with crappy animations and a silly inexpressive face!

Ah, and is BarÇa /BARSA/, not "barca".

[XarXo]

_

[Fiera]

Originally posted by XarXo
Ah, and is BarÇa /BARSA/, not "barca".

Some people here like to call them Barza...

[hetairoi22]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Ok, my friend, I am a great fan of Catalunia myself (Barca!!!!) and I think Real (and all the royal scum) suck heavily... but stating that Aragon should be in over Spain... is plain silly.

Actually, it is quite easy to play a game with the Kingdom or Aragon: Customize!!! Don't just say "include Aragon", it sounds silly.

I being the great fan of ancient Greece I am, plan on customizing all civs, to play a game on a Greece map with all great city-states:

Athens, Sparta, Argos, Thessalon Koinon, Macedonia Kingdom, Megara, Syracusae, Rhodion Koinon, Ierapytna, Korinth, Mandineia, Tegea, Selinus...

You can do whatever you want with the editing tools, seize those pointless campaings...

Surely, you cannot make a mod about greece without adding the Persians!!

What will be their special units? Some are obvious ( I hope I'm right...)

Athens: Athenian Trireme
Sparta: Better Hoplites
Macedonia: Macedonian Phalanc OR Macedonain (H.) Cavalry Companions (Hetairoi)

But others?

Aragon? Yup, the editor is there for YOU, my friend

[Alfonsus72]

Originally posted by XarXo
Also I have to say that "SPANIARDS" doesn't exists

Spain exists. At least, I´m spanish, and guess I exist.

Political structures from the past, like the Crown of Aragon, could be or not be included (I personally would prefer it to be in, but considering former firaxis games, we could consider ourselves lucky if only Spain or Portugal are present in the expansion pack), but I guess that "split" Spain in a game in 2, 4, 17 or 54 diferent parts, even considering that would be nice for somepeople, would be going so far for what is guessed to be a computer game, not a political manifest.

About the matter itself, I´ve been living in Alicante (Valencia) many years, and I don´t think that anybody there could thought that they are a civilization joined with catalonians, balears and so on, diferent from the rest of Spain.

Spain has been joined for many centuries, and our blood is mixed in a way that you can´t say that you come from a celt, iberian, arab or latin origin, or even if you are "genetically" from a diferent, let´s say, "racial group". For my personal case, my ancestors come from very diferent parts of Spain, so I can´t consider myself nothing but a Spanish.

If Spain must be joined or not (I highly want it to be joined) is not a question of this forum, I only came to cordially say that I do not agree with some considerations made on this thread about that Spain or spanish doesn´t exists.

[Alfonsus72]

Originally posted by XarXo
In Spain is very common say to all the catalans (I'm one), valencians and baleraicans "POLACO", polaco is a very despective insult to say to us that we speak something horrible, that we are always making problems...

"Polaco" is the spanish word for "Polish". That's all.

I also disagree. That´s highly unusual.
I´ve never heard nobody say "polaco" to someone as an insult.
"Polaco" is an "insult" present only in the vocabulary of football hoolingans from Real Madrid to insult Barça suporters. I don´t think that valencians or balearics are included in the "deal".
Don´t know where the insult come from (could you help, Xarxos?), but I guess it refers to some words of Jordi Pujol (Catalonian President) in the early 90´s, when Estonia, Letonia and Lituania get independence, saying that he wanted Catalonia´s independe in a "baltic way".

Anyway, in order not to confuse our polish friends in this forum, must say that the word is used only by a radical an stupid minority, and of course that doesn´t meant that spanish people don´t like Poland, "au countrair", we have allways felt a great solidarity for our baltic catholic-mates, and I personaly feel great sympathy and think we are very similar peoples. And, of course, Poland MUST be in the expansion pack (I voted for it).

[tleilaxu]

catalon nationalism is the result of catalonia being a richer area than the rest of spain and them not wanting to share their wealth.

catalon may be recognized as a language but everyone knows it's just spanish with a funny accent :P

you might as well say american-english or australian-english are seperate languages.

catalonia has an inflated sense of importance, as evidenced in this thread...

i think much better civilizations to include would be:

ethiopia (sheba ), mali, aborigenal australia, more native north american groups, the arabs, phoencians or hebrews, mongols, vikings, and incas

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by Alfonsus72


I also disagree. That´s highly unusual.
I´ve never heard nobody say "polaco" to someone as an insult.
"Polaco" is an "insult" present only in the vocabulary of football hoolingans from Real Madrid to insult Barça suporters. I don´t think that valencians or balearics are included in the "deal".

Well, I from Valencia and I heard tell "polaco" because somebody speak in catalanish language. Also, this word is used when castelians speakers remark the diferences. Normally, people used it wants more politic/cultural centralism.

excuse my poor english

PD: Tens tota la raó Xarxo, però és molt difícil fer-los comprendre...

[XarXo]

Ok, some many quotes (with their answers, of course)

catalon nationalism is the result of catalonia being a richer area than the rest of spain and them not wanting to share their wealth.

catalon may be recognized as a language but everyone knows it's just spanish with a funny accent :P

you might as well say american-english or australian-english are seperate languages.

catalonia has an inflated sense of importance, as evidenced in this thread...

i think much better civilizations to include would be:

ethiopia (sheba ), mali, aborigenal australia, more native north american groups, the arabs, phoencians or hebrews, mongols, vikings, and incas

You know the Segadors Revolution at 1640? Is by far earlier than the industrial revolution in Catalonia. I have to remember you that we aren't speaking only of Catalonia? There are the Valencian Country and Aragon too, for example.

About your comentary of "catalon" (is catalan in english) is really interesting. How a person with your ignorance level could show it in a public forum? Amaizing.

Finally, the other civilizations. Why not Kiribati? They have 739 diferent languages and dialects, and are so exotic!!

Now, another one:

Spain exists. At least, I´m spanish, and guess I exist.

Is very easy be spanish when you're castillian. About the philosophical basis, exist mars people when some humans consider themseleves aliens?

If you consider that this post is only a catalan reivinidcation, don't post. You probably think that Austria is only a silly state in the Great Germany, or the Celts in the British Islands are only a tribal group of people that only must be present in some Theme Parks as an exotic ones.

If you preffer vote for us using a silly reason, think that Barcelona Olympic Games were a funny sport party in the 1992. That's all!

[ranskaldan]

Relax XarXo!

You seem to think that everyone looks down on Aragon somehow, thinking that it's substandard or insignificant or something...

The things is, after a deluge of posts on Aragon on your part, everyone is perfectly clear on the historical significance of Aragon, e.g. how it controlled Naples and Athens and the Mediterranean, its arts and government etc. Everyone who posted has read that. Don't worry.

However, people generally are still voting for the Mongols/Vikings/Spanish/Arabs etc because they feel that these civs are more important.

That does NOT mean that people hate Aragon, or think it's silly, or what. Anyone with some understanding of Spanish history (and i'm sure everyone does after having read your posts) knows Aragon's importance. It's just that they feel there are at least 8 civs which are more important, such as the Mongols/Spanish/Arabs/Incas etc.

Let me repeat myself. People do not hate Aragon. They do not feel Aragon is inferior.

Now, relax. The reason why no one's replying anymore is because you've been repeating the same points over and over again. Then you accuse them of thinking that the Polish are 'German-Russian bastards'. I mean, repeating yourself and then hurling insults really isn't a good way of convincing a crowd who's already heard your points many times.

[tleilaxu]

Originally posted by XarXo
Ok, some many quotes (with their answers, of course)



You know the Segadors Revolution at 1640? Is by far earlier than the industrial revolution in Catalonia. I have to remember you that we aren't speaking only of Catalonia? There are the Valencian Country and Aragon too, for example.

About your comentary of "catalon" (is catalan in english) is really interesting. How a person with your ignorance level could show it in a public forum? Amaizing.

thanks for the laughs xarxo... you gave me exactly what i was looking for. i get a kick out of people who come on message boards with a chip on their shoulder.

the fact of the matter is that catalon by and large is more wealthy than the rest of spain. this has resulted in many catalonians feeling that they are more civilized and superior to other spaniards. nobody really cares about your regionalism. How about this:

Why not Burgundy for a civilization? They were independent from france for a while... Heck, let's fill up all of Europe with civilizations and leave the rest of the world empty. Each city will be able to grow to size two because they will have 1 resource square that is not being taken up by the Lombards, Tuscans, Swiss, Bavarians, Flemish, Slovenians, Basques, Normans, French, Italians, Romans, Etruscans, Czechs AND Slovaks...

"We dominated a small corner of the world for two centuries... waa!"

"The place i come from is special and i will insult anyone who belittles my sense of importance"

Come on Xarxo... bring some more insults... i find it fun to have discussions like this.

Me: "Catalonia" as an idea is dependent more on economic disparities then on cultural distinctiveness.

Xarxo: You suck you ignorant pig!

LOL

[ranskaldan]

now, tleilaxu, I've just tried to calm XarXo down by saying people don't really dislike Aragon, and you've come out just to prove me wrong haven't you? oh well, this thread will soon be a total flame fest. Oh wait, it already is.

And XarXo

Lombards, Tuscans, Swiss, Bavarians, Flemish, Slovenians, Basques, Normans, French, Italians, Romans, Etruscans, Czechs AND Slovaks

As I have said, XarXo, no one's trying to contradict what you are saying. It's just that Europe is crowded enough as it is, and including Aragon would also justify the Normans, Bavarians, Flemish, Etruscans etc. There are other civs to vote for. Like the Spanish. Or Mongols. Or Arabs. So just create an Aragonian civ yourself. It isn't that difficult.

[tleilaxu]

i do have to say this... Aragon is a Really cool name... maybe it reminds me of LotR though....

todos sobre mi madre was a good flick, but not the best by that director...

[Estilpón]

I think Xarxo explain some points of the history of Aragon Crown ...
but...


Relaaaax Xarxo

[XarXo]

Um... Everybody says me that I should be more realxed, and I believe that is true, but I have to say that almost the 80% of things that I posted were in a relaxed mind. Now let's to solve my unrelaxed stupid things that I posted:

About "polacos", well, I extracted it 'coz a polish one makes me annoy. This is worse than when some people uses this to catalans. Sorry for my words.

Repeating the same thing one and another time... Yes, is like to say that we haven't anything more to show. Sorry again!

Why not Burgundy for a civilization? They were independent from france for a while... Heck, let's fill up all of Europe with civilizations and leave the rest of the world empty. Each city will be able to grow to size two because they will have 1 resource square that is not being taken up by the Lombards, Tuscans, Swiss, Bavarians, Flemish, Slovenians, Basques, Normans, French, Italians, Romans, Etruscans, Czechs AND Slovaks...

Well, after my post is normal that you could be angry. The problem here is that C. of A. is not known by the world, and making my kind of posts, the final idea could be terrible ,
well... I must make a thread with an objective vision of it.

The place i come from is special and i will insult anyone who belittles my sense of importance

About the importance of C. of A. in the history... Well, it has the same level as Poland (yes, is true!) and another middle-countries with middle-amount of people in the world, but not compare it with a regional movement, you know that isn't the truth.

The problem with the civs is only the result of a the bad implemetation of civs in Civ III, a great solve to it should be choose the starting era in the game, and in each era we could find some different divs. In the era's change, we also could be capable to change the civ (for example, Romans -> Two Sicilies? -> Italians).

This solve the problem with America. It appears and it has historical accurance! In Age of Empires we had "Teutonics", not "Germanics", and nobody said that it was an error, yes?

The origin of my petition born with the English/Bristish question that appeared in this forum in the past. My civ hasn't probabilities to appear in a Civ III expansion pack, so, please reda this.

My final words in this reply are: If you believe that "British" is a mistake as a Civ, please vote "Castillian" in the place of "Spanish".

In Spain, the all-state official langauge is castillian, the capitol is in Castillian Kingdom area, almost a 90% of the cities that were founded in South America by Spanish have names of the Castillian Kingdom, the famous "Conquistadores" of South America were from Castilla dominion, South America speaks castillian, not catalan... So, please, vote them as CASTILLIANS, not "SPANISH".

Is the same idea as when everybody claimed that "British" were an error.

Thanks.

[Estilpón]

Yeeees Xarxo, you know...

[Alfonsus72]

Originally posted by XarXo
If you consider that this post is only a catalan reivinidcation, don't post.

I don´t consider we are talking about politics, and I would like to run this "conversation" in a polite way (probably I´m so candid ). I´m not telling you what you have to do. You can consider yourself catalonian, crown of aragon subdit (in which case your king would be Juan Carlos I of Spain), selenite or martian. I really don´t care. My only point is than I can´t consider myself a castillian, even considering that I was born in a castillian town, cause my family comes from diferent parts of Spain (Valencia, Asturias,...), so I´m spanish, don´t care if Spain exist for you or not, but even if someday Spain is finally divided, I won´t be so stupid to consider myself castillian, madrilian (sounds like a monkey), or any other stupid thing, cause I´m SPANISH, I feel SPANISH, and I don´t want to have any other nationality but spanish or stateless.

If you believe that "British" is a mistake as a Civ, please vote "Castillian" in the place of "Spanish".

In Spain, the all-state official langauge is castillian, the capitol is in Castillian Kingdom area, almost a 90% of the cities that were founded in South America by Spanish have names of the Castillian Kingdom, the famous "Conquistadores" of South America were from Castilla dominion, South America speaks castillian, not catalan... So, please, vote them as CASTILLIANS, not "SPANISH".

Your equation SPAIN=CASTILLE+ARAGON is not exact.
There´s a common heritage, a common history and tradition that doesn´t owns to Castille or Aragon only. The hole thing is bigger than the addition of the parts.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Alfonsus72
It really don´t care. My only point is than I can´t consider myself a castillian, even considering that I was born in a castillian town, cause my family comes from diferent parts of Spain (Valencia, Asturias,...), so I´m spanish, don´t care if Spain exist for you or not,

And I feel catalonian, don't care if Catalonia exist for you or not, but here I'm not expressing my feelings, for this there is the Off-Topic forum or the Spanish Forum, here we're discussing about the Crown of Aragon as a civilization.

For this thread I typed at the first moment a laaaarge text with a realxed (yes, relaxed) explanation of why the castillian nationality is the same one than spanish, but at the end I thought that is stupid enlarge this. Everybody knows the differences from ethnicity, nationality and regionality. The same as state, country, nation and region. And probably you too, but I suggest you a refresh them reading a good dictionary (not a pocket one).

I don't pretend insult you, simply I have to remember you that never, never and never the parents origins are the ones that gives you the nationality. If you feel spanish, you (probably) feel the same as one that feels castillian.

But feelings aren't only the basis of nationality.

Now, let's to speak more of the Crown of Aragon.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Estilpón
Yeeees Xarxo, you know...

[Alfonsus72]

Originally posted by XarXo
I don't pretend insult you, simply I have to remember you that never, never and never the parents origins are the ones that gives you the nationality. If you feel spanish, you (probably) feel the same as one that feels castillian.

Tell that to a Nationalist Castillian Party (Tierra Comunera) member, which motto is "spanishism = fascism".
And don´t be afraid of insulting me, I really don´t care, but please don´t insult me calling me castillian, it´s a very bad insult (and of course, it´s not a nationality).

About the Crown of Aragon itself, why don´t you make a brief of the civ character, town names, special unit (guess Almogavers is a must),...? Probably it will go nowhere, but If you really like civilization (the computer game) it will be funny for you (and of course for me). My sugestions (if I´m allowed), taken from a thread about the spanish civilization in the sp. civ. site forum:

Leader : Jaime I "The conqueror".
Special Unit: Almogavars (swordman with dissembark abiliity).

[Pyrodrew]

Ranskaldan:As I have said, XarXo, no one's trying to contradict what you are saying. It's just that Europe is crowded enough as it is, and including Aragon would also justify the Normans, Bavarians, Flemish, Etruscans etc. There are other civs to vote for. Like the Spanish. Or Mongols. Or Arabs. So just create an Aragonian civ yourself. It isn't that difficult.

I agree.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Alfonsus72



Tell that to a Nationalist Castillian Party (Tierra Comunera) member, which motto is "spanishism = fascism".
And don´t be afraid of insulting me, I really don´t care, but please don´t insult me calling me castillian, it´s a very bad insult (and of course, it´s not a nationality).

About the Crown of Aragon itself, why don´t you make a brief of the civ character, town names, special unit (guess Almogavers is a must),...? Probably it will go nowhere, but If you really like civilization (the computer game) it will be funny for you (and of course for me). My sugestions (if I´m allowed), taken from a thread about the spanish civilization in the sp. civ. site forum:

Leader : Jaime I "The conqueror".
Special Unit: Almogavars (swordman with dissembark abiliity).

Please, read the first post.

About Terra Comunera, it isn't a nationalist group, is regionalist.

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew
I agree.

I understand this, if you read the past threads, you can see that there are two options:

1.- Include Castilla (not spain) as England is included (not britain).

2.- Make a "The Conquerors Expansion Pack" or "Middle Ages Expansion Pack" including my civ with Castilla, Portugal and the Inca Empire.