View Poll Results: Which civilization for the XP: Carthaginian or Phoenician?
Carthaginian 20 51.28%
Phoenician 17 43.59%
Not sure 2 5.13%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old October 14, 2001, 21:50   #1
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
Carthaginian or Phoenician?
Carthaginian/Phoenician civ is doing quite well on the poll, and is likely to be included in the XP. However, which would be better? Carthaginian or Phoenician?

My vote is for the former, as explained in another thread. Maybe we can have some debate on this, if it's a close poll. VOTE!
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 03:30   #2
August Borms
Prince
 
August Borms's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Antwerpen
Posts: 398
I can't pronounce "Carthaginian" and I don't even how to translate that to my language so I vote for the Phoenicians
August Borms is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 05:48   #3
ogotai
Settler
 
ogotai's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: POLAND, Lodz
Posts: 13
I'm for Carthaginians - they were fight in great wars with Romans
I voted for Carthaginians in my voting poll
__________________
Ogotai
ogotai is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 08:43   #4
Gramphos
staff
Civilization III MultiplayerC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV: MultiplayerAge of Nations TeamC4BtSDG Realms BeyondCivilization IV Creators
Technical Director
 
Gramphos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
See Phoenicians/Carthaginians

Other of interest:
Turks/Ottomans
Hebrew/Israelis
Ethiopians/Aksumites
__________________
ACS - Technical Director
Gramphos is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 09:46   #5
Be Quicker
Warlord
 
Be Quicker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Zeeheldenkwartier
Posts: 104
Carthaginian all the way. IMHO much better name recognition, because it IMHO is the most "powerfull" incarnation of this civilization.
Be Quicker is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 11:02   #6
Martinus
Prince
 
Martinus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Warsaw, European Union
Posts: 938
I say Phoenicians, as they are a civilization in general, while Carthaginians are just an offshoot of them.

If we follow the logic presented by Be Quicker, we would have Athenians or Spartans instead of Greeks and Prussians instead of Germans. On the other hand, Firaxis seemed to follow the same logic with Iroquis, so they may call the civilization Carthaginians, because the name is more widely known.

Personally, I would prefer the Civ called Phoenicians with Hannibal as its leader (just as far fetched, imho, as Alexander as the leader of Greeks).
__________________
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God?
- Frank Herbert
Martinus is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 11:33   #7
Gangerolf
Prince
 
Gangerolf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: KULTUR-TERROR
Posts: 958
On a world map, the Phoenicians, with the capital Tyre (in present day Lebanon IIRC), would start out very close to the Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians.
Gangerolf is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 11:38   #8
Martinus
Prince
 
Martinus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Warsaw, European Union
Posts: 938
Quote:
Originally posted by Gangerolf
On a world map, the Phoenicians, with the capital Tyre (in present day Lebanon IIRC), would start out very close to the Babylonians, Greeks and Egyptians.
Actually, this is the only good point about making them Carthaginians I have heard so far. Too bad I already voted
__________________
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God?
- Frank Herbert
Martinus is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 12:27   #9
Rosacrux
Warlord
 
Rosacrux's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away...
Posts: 168
Carthagenian is definitely better - the off shot argument could have been counterd with numerous arguments: English and American, Slavs and Russians (or Poles or whatever) Mongols and Turks etc. etc.

But Carthago had more impact than Phoenice (just as USA has more impact than UK today) in the ancient history and has been widely known for it's constant wars against Rome...

...and don't forget we'll be able to say (when we finally do them) Carthago delenda est

PS: The world map issue is definitely a serious one, and it's a valid pro-Carthago argument. Additionaly, if they include the Arabs (hopefully they will...) we'll have another stacked up in that very same region...
Rosacrux is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 16:00   #10
Vlad Antlerkov
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Vlad Antlerkov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Toasty!
Posts: 2,230
Phoenician. Lessee, there's the alphabet...

Plus, they're some of the earliest great explorers. IIRC, they circumnavigated Africa and possibly made it to Mexico... That, and they had colonies not just in North Africa, but all over the Mediterranean, as far west as Spain (which Carthage eventually took over).

In fact, the settlements they had in Italy effectively halted the Greeks' westward colonization during the Archaic period, redirecting their efforts toward the Black Sea and Ionia. As I recall, one of the colonies the Greeks founded after stopping their westward expansion was this place called Byzantium. You may have heard of it.

Two problems, though-- who'd be the leader, and what'd the unique unit be? I'll be the first to admit that Hamilcar Barca might be a good choice...
Vlad Antlerkov is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 16:50   #11
Ironwood
Prince
 
Local Time: 07:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 386
In a way, asking "Phonecian or Carthagenian" is like asking "English or American." Still, I voted for "Phonecian" because it is comparable to the question: Greek or Macedonian?

The Greeks, even before Alexander, had influence in a lot of places through their colonies, but each Greek community was considered, at least in theory, independent of other greek communities (poleis). And their influence was expanded considerably under Alexander, but Alexander wasn't a Greek, but rather a Macedonian.

Still, the name "Greek" is used in Civilization, because, first off, it's more recognizable than "Macedonian," secondly, it was truly Greek culture that was extended, and that any culture Macedonia had was attained by their claim of fundamental "Greekness" (they were wannabe Greeks). Finally, simply calling them "Greek" includes other Greek areas that Alexander never touched, i.e. the colonies west of Greece proper (particularly Sicily and southern Italy, which feel the influence of their Greek ancestors to this day).

Carthage, by this logic, is just the last remaining independent Phonecian city (after Alexander conquered the entirity of the East) which managed to retain it's prosperity despite that.

For the record:

Civilization: Phonecian
Culture: Commercial, Scientific
Capital: Tyre
Leader: Hannibal
Unit: Big Question Mark. Any ideas? Maybe some improved ship.

Why Hannibal? Because everybody knows his name. It's not historically accurate, I know. But who else could it be? (Please tell me. I am very interested in such things.)

Actually, none of the popular myths regarding this figure are historically accurate. Does anyone know his race? I once saw a poster at the university calling him a "black historical leader." (This was right next to one calling Cleopatra the "Black Queen." Why either of these pieces of propaganda were placed in a place of learning is beyond me.)
__________________
To those who understand,
I extend my hand.
To the doubtful I demand,
Take me as I am.

Last edited by Ironwood; October 15, 2001 at 16:55.
Ironwood is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 17:10   #12
Rosacrux
Warlord
 
Rosacrux's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away...
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally posted by Ironwood
Alexander wasn't a Greek, but rather a Macedonian.

Still, the name "Greek" is used in Civilization, because, first off, it's more recognizable than "Macedonian," secondly, it was truly Greek culture that was extended, and that any culture Macedonia had was attained by their claim of fundamental "Greekness" (they were wannabe Greeks
I should say that most Greeks on this board (and probably the coowner of this site too...) would be more than willing to point out how wrong you are here.

Historical facts and data suggest that the Macedonian (if not all of the subjects of that kingdom, then definitely the "genuine" Macedonian) were of Greek (Doric, actually, like the Pelloponesian) ancestry.

The rest should be considered bad propaganda.

As for your question about Hanibal's race, well, since his ancestry was semitic, we can assume he was white. In the middle eastern way, of course, but still white.
Rosacrux is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 17:15   #13
Ironwood
Prince
 
Local Time: 07:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 386
Regarding Hannibals race, that is the assumption I have made, as well. I wondered, however, if anyone had any verifiable facts in this regard.

Regarding the Macedon/Greece question: Yes, they shared a Doric herritage, but regardless of that, there were those among the Greeks that considered themselves to be little more than barbarian interlopers. (And yes, there were others that considered them the saviors of Greek cultures.) Nonetheless, the center of it was Greece and Greek culture.
__________________
To those who understand,
I extend my hand.
To the doubtful I demand,
Take me as I am.
Ironwood is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 17:36   #14
Leppersson
Settler
 
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: near the road
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov
Phoenician. Lessee, there's the alphabet...
And currency, trade...
Phoenicians, absolutely.
Leppersson is offline  
Old October 15, 2001, 18:45   #15
Alexander I
staff
Scenario League / Civ2-CreationCivilization IV CreatorsCivilization IV: MultiplayerPolyCast Team
 
Alexander I's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Resident Mormon
Posts: 2,853
You folks may also want to see the thread:

Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Phoenicians and Dutch

My preference is:

Civ: Phoenicians
Leader: King Hiram of Tyre (see 2nd Samuel, Old Testament, the Bible)
Capital: Tyre
Unit: Quinquireme (faster Trireme with less cost)
Attributes: Commercial, Expansionist

Thoughts?
__________________
The Apolytoner formerly known as Alexander01
"God has given no greater spur to victory than contempt of death." - Hannibal Barca, c. 218 B.C.
"We can legislate until doomsday but that will not make men righteous." - George Albert Smith, A.D. 1949
The Kingdom of Jerusalem: Chronicles of the Golden Cross - a Crusader Kings After Action Report
Alexander I is offline  
Old October 16, 2001, 15:35   #16
Ironwood
Prince
 
Local Time: 07:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 386
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
Civ: Phoenicians
Leader: King Hiram of Tyre (see 2nd Samuel, Old Testament, the Bible)
Capital: Tyre
Unit: Quinquireme (faster Trireme with less cost)
Attributes: Commercial, Expansionist

Thoughts?
I like! But were they truly expansionist? I know they had colonies all over the Mediterranian, but, IIRC, those were primarily commercial outposts (except one really big and successful commercial outpost, Carthange). I suppose any culture that deliberately expands could be considered expansionist.
__________________
To those who understand,
I extend my hand.
To the doubtful I demand,
Take me as I am.
Ironwood is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 03:41   #17
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01

Capital: Tyre
Tyre in English, but the "real" name was Tyros.
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 03:52   #18
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally posted by Ironwood

Still, the name "Greek" is used in Civilization, because, first off, it's more recognizable than "Macedonian," secondly, it was truly Greek culture that was extended, and that any culture Macedonia had was attained by their claim of fundamental "Greekness" (they were wannabe Greeks). Finally, simply calling them "Greek" includes other Greek areas that Alexander never touched, i.e. the colonies west of Greece proper (particularly Sicily and southern Italy, which feel the influence of their Greek ancestors to this day).
You have a clue in that (IMO), but it's still easier
to have simply Greek. I know it's historically correct,
but it's widely accepted and used. History books use
the "Aegean cultures" and "Classic Greece", but
I think they use Greek for Alexander's empire.

Markos (MarkG) could answer this question.
Quote:
Why Hannibal? Because everybody knows his name. It's not historically accurate, I know. But who else could it be? (Please tell me. I am very interested in such things.)
Hannibal was the most prosperous Carthaginian leader,
at least as far as we know.

If you remember Civ II (some people have already forgot it),
the female Carthaginian leader is Dido (not Dildo, even if
many players would prefer that one ).
She was actually a real leader, but not significant.

The reason why we don't know so much about Carthage and
it's rulers and history is that the city was burnt down
to ashes in the II. Punic war.
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 03:58   #19
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Civlization: Carthaginians
Leader: Hannibal
Capital: Carthage
UU: War Elephant
Attributes: Commercial, Militaristic

I know that the Indians have WE as UU,
but the Carthaginians were the real
masters of War Elephants, and they
were the first civ to use them.

The Roman army (especially Scipio) feared
them like hell.
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 04:02   #20
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01

(see 2nd Samuel, Old Testament, the Bible)
Not for being a fanatic Christian, but the Bible
is actually a good source for information (IMO) on the
ancient civs in the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia.
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 05:08   #21
Rosacrux
Warlord
 
Rosacrux's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away...
Posts: 168
...I wouldn't excactly call it "a good source" or anything like that. It is biased, full of fantastic stories, peoples and events and is not history - it is a set of beliefs that tries to present also the history of the "chosen people".

A number of historians are making the grand mistake of taking into account literaly every word in the old testament... and they come up with ridiculous assumptions and rather annoying remarks.

Fact is that the old testament is a good starting point to learn a couple of things, but if you stick to them, you lose.
Rosacrux is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 08:15   #22
Locutus
Apolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 SP Democracy GameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamBtS Tri-LeagueC4BtSDG TemplarsC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV CreatorsCTP2 Source Code ProjectPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Locutus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: De Hel van Enschede
Posts: 11,702
Quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
I know that the Indians have WE as UU,
but the Carthaginians were the real
masters of War Elephants, and they
were the first civ to use them.

The Roman army (especially Scipio) feared
them like hell.
What *are* you talking about? The Carthaginians were the first civ to use War Elephants? Where do you think they got the idea from in the first place? Alexander the Great was the first 'Mediterranean' to encounter them (in India, where they were used as early as 1100 BC). After this initial encounter, the Greeks themselves used Indian War Elephants in a number of battles, most notably the Battle of Pyrrhus. This gave Egyptians and Carthaginians the idea to use their own African Plain Elephants. Hannibal's elephants were smaller than the Indian ones and the Carthaginians weren't all that successful with them. I quote:
Quote:
Although his crossing of the Alps with the elephants is widely remembered, Hannibal made surprisingly little use of them. War elephants proved useful against Iberian tribal forces, though they were somewhat less effective when facing disciplined regulars (see The Trouble with Elephants). In fact, most of the 34 elephants he started with died during the mountain passage or during the severe winter that followed. The last few died after the battle of Trebbia, leaving only one (Serus?) to carry Hannibal through the Etrurian marshes.
Originally the Romans didn't know how to deal with the elephants they encountered and they (the elephants) scared the crap out of them, but they (the Romans) soon adapted. The War Elephant certainly had it's use on the Carthaginian battlefield but they were by no means superior to the Indians.
__________________
Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery
Locutus is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 08:36   #23
Locutus
Apolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 SP Democracy GameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamBtS Tri-LeagueC4BtSDG TemplarsC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV CreatorsCTP2 Source Code ProjectPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Locutus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: De Hel van Enschede
Posts: 11,702
As far as the Bible as historical source goes, I agree with both Rasbelin and Rosacrux. It is indeed a very good and important source of info, either on its own or in combination with other sources. Many of the things in the Bible are indeed biased and made up and at times it even contradicts itself (all this from an atheist's point of view of course, many Christians would no doubt disagree) but many things are truthfull and reliable as well. In any case, even the most 'fantastic' stories of the Bible have a basis in scientific 'truth'. Besides, name me one ancient literary source that isn't biased. One of the most important sources on the Celts we have FE is 'De Bello Gallico' by C. Julius Ceasar himself. But this book was at the time nothing more than a piece of propaganda to justify his military campaigns in Gaul. It creates a very biased and inaccurate picture of 'savage barbarians' but it also contains tons of invaluable historic info on them that *is* (most likely) accurate.

BTW, can we keep (as much as possible of) the Phoenician/Carthaginian debate in the relevant thread? This forum is already cluttered up enough with Expansion Pack Civ threads as it is...
__________________
Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery
Locutus is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 08:50   #24
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally posted by Locutus

Where do you think they got the idea from in the first place?
I mixed up with the Indians. I'm sorry, it was a mistake.
I was probably still asleep.
Quote:
Originally the Romans didn't know how to deal with the elephants they encountered and they (the elephants) scared the crap out of them, but they (the Romans) soon adapted.
That's correct. My point was that the elephants were
the most important non-infantry weapon of Hannibal.
But Scipio managed to have some good tactics in the
final battle outside Carthage. He ambushed the elephants
from aside, before attacking the main force of Hannibal.
That movement gave him the needed ace in the battle,
because Hannibal had more men than Scipio (of course
now I might recall wrong).

But anyway, the Carthaginian history is interesting (IMO).
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 08:55   #25
Locutus
Apolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 SP Democracy GameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamBtS Tri-LeagueC4BtSDG TemplarsC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV CreatorsCTP2 Source Code ProjectPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Locutus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: De Hel van Enschede
Posts: 11,702
Quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
That's correct. My point was that the elephants were
the most important non-infantry weapon of Hannibal.
But Scipio managed to have some good tactics in the
final battle outside Carthage. He ambushed the elephants
from aside, before attacking the main force of Hannibal.
That movement gave him the needed ace in the battle,
because Hannibal had more men than Scipio (of course
now I might recall wrong).
Yeah, something like that...
Quote:
But anyway, the Carthaginian history is interesting (IMO).
IMHO, all of history is interesting. Well, almost all of it anyway...
__________________
Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery
Locutus is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 09:02   #26
Rasbelin
Emperor
 
Rasbelin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,801
Quote:
Originally posted by Locutus

IMHO, all of history is interesting. Well, almost all of it anyway...
Me too. A real history freak? Probably.
__________________
"Kids, don't listen to uncle Solver unless you want your parents to spank you." - Solver
Rasbelin is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 09:22   #27
Locutus
Apolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 SP Democracy GameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamBtS Tri-LeagueC4BtSDG TemplarsC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV CreatorsCTP2 Source Code ProjectPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Locutus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: De Hel van Enschede
Posts: 11,702
Quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
A real history freak?
Guilty as charged
__________________
Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery
Locutus is offline  
Old October 17, 2001, 21:19   #28
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
oh c'mon...
it's neck and neck! Someone else vote!

We can't leave it as a tie!
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old October 18, 2001, 01:13   #29
jsw363
Prince
 
Local Time: 06:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
One of the most important sources on the Celts we have FE is 'De Bello Gallico' by C. Julius Ceasar himself. But this book was at the time nothing more than a piece of propaganda to justify his military campaigns in Gaul. It creates a very biased and inaccurate picture of 'savage barbarians' but it also contains tons of invaluable historic info on them that *is* (most likely) accurate.
Locutus-
Agreed, but it IS a great book. Good to hear that there are other people out there reading it. I think that it was one of my favorite books in Latin. I still remember the opening lines... Gallia est omnis divisa en partes tres... Actually seemed relevant and realistic. Yes, it's definitely propaganda, but it provides a great insight into Ceasar's psyche and the Gallic War. Just a shout out to Latin scholars out there...
jsw363 is offline  
Old October 18, 2001, 03:23   #30
al-Apolyton
Settler
 
al-Apolyton's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:42
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The terrorist of Poly
Posts: 3
I gave my vote too.
Quote:
Originally posted by orange
Someone else vote!
Happy now? 13 versus 12.
__________________
al-Apolyton, the most wanted terrorist organisation in the world.
Or was it al-Qaeda...?
al-Apolyton is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team