record attempt(yes I am nuts:D ) - Page 7

shade · June 13, 2002, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
There is a trigger, which we all discussed just what it was. (originally I though it was city count(hitting max)), others thought it was pop, others thought it was a tech. But none of the theory ever were verified. Exceptions always happened. (unless someone did, and I just missed reading about it)

I think I can help you out here:
It's not the cities(just got 227 cities +1 Indian)
It's not the population( got past the max 2x some turns ago)--> now I have 739M ppl( 655M + 84M)
I just am researching Future Tech 61...
maybe it has to do with the total trade-income(tax+science+lux) when it goes over 65.000???
(I'll take a look at the tradethread)
or the #turn(although turn 383???)

Quote:

Get used to it. But look on the bright size, trade just got easier because they're all gonna suck so micromanagement is not needed.

damn,I really start to get used to things going nuts the moment all seems to get beter....
It was so usefull to get 1 tech out of my trade(I need >16000b now

)

Quote:

I'm actually surprised that I remembered the exact number since it's been a few years.

It's probably a consequence of the shock it gave you at that time...it sure did shock me...

[Little bit OT]

Quote:

Yello, Xin Yu! Long time no see, at least for me. I disappeared for most of 2001 to try to get a life after The List.

Hmmm...then you are one of the ppl I can thank for that enormous amount of info and ideas for a new civ-game
[/Little bit OT]

Shade

Straybow · June 13, 2002, 17:50

"…between Wash[1] and NY[1], not even a road connection."

Quote:

WTF....

Grumble, you must be kidding me, I thought that for those traderoutes it was enough to have your entire city-radius RR-ed...computerlogic

those RR are for swift polutioncleaning and the Go-to command...

I agree with rah that so late in the game you don't want to mess with micromanaging every city connection, but earlier in the game when intraciv trade was much more important (and money much more a concern) you lost out on significant income and trade. That has cumulative effects.

Of course once the route is laid in properly you continue to reap that benefit, double the value of trade routes on the same continent within 22 tiles. Er, how many intracontinent trade routes do you think you have now? And if 2/3rds of them have no rail benefit, and 1/3 have no road benefit that would mean a 25% loss of trade route revenue.

Now that the caravan payoff has turned to crap it probably would be worth your effort to try. For open terrain (no bodies of water to interrupt GoTo route) there is a fairly simple pattern which can be memorized. See the "Great Library" link to find the thread with the "map" in it.

To find the route that the computer checks you'd have to go back to a pre-rail save (or laboriously remove rails) and GoTo with Exps or Parts. Obviously it takes a bit of cheating. If I'm doing more than just one or two quick checks it takes too long, so you might as well edit rules.txt to give the Exp/Part more movement. I just add a "1" in front to make "11" moves.)

I have gone to the effort of creating a cheat map with rails removed in the areas t be tested, cheating Engrs and building cities on sites as new cities are founded in the game, etc.

rah · June 13, 2002, 17:51

If you see anything that might be it let me know. Record games were the only games that this ever happened to me so I never had enough examples to try to pin it down. You'd think it was one thing, then the next time, that wasn't it so you'd guess another, then that wouldn't be it then you were sick of record games.

Not a lot of experience with this bug.

But Since XIN YU checked in here (hi XIN)
Maybe he knows something us lesser folks don't.

RAH

shade · June 13, 2002, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Straybow
Of course once the route is laid in properly you continue to reap that benefit, double the value of trade routes on the same continent within 22 tiles. Er, how many intracontinent trade routes do you think you have now? And if 2/3rds of them have no rail benefit, and 1/3 have no road benefit that would mean a 25% loss of trade route revenue.

luckilly 99% of the continents is covered with RR so most of them will have the benefit(I'll keep this thing in mind next time)

Quote:

Now that the caravan payoff has turned to crap it probably would be worth your effort to try. For open terrain (no bodies of water to interrupt GoTo route) there is a fairly simple pattern which can be memorized. See the "Great Library" link to find the thread with the "map" in it.

I'll look it up...btw I don't have that much open terrain left anymore.
[edit]
just looked it up... I couldn't find what you are refering to(looked in the GL Index)...
[/edit]

Quote:

If you see anything that might be it let me know. Record games were the only games that this ever happened to me so I never had enough examples to try to pin it down. You'd think it was one thing, then the next time, that wasn't it so you'd guess another, then that wouldn't be it then you were sick of record games. Not a lot of experience with this bug.

I'll post the game so there is an other example to study,(since this is the exact point where it goes bezerk)
more brains looking into it can think more places where the cause lies.

Quote:

But Since XIN YU checked in here (hi XIN)
Maybe he knows something us lesser folks don't.

just checked out his scrolles again...nothing in there

...
If you are one of the lesser folks what must I be then??

Shade,happy that there are some civ-masters looking over his shoulder.

TCO · June 13, 2002, 19:02

"fundamentals, man, fundamentals"

Xin Yu · June 13, 2002, 19:23

Hi guys. I was just fooling around here in the middle of a discussion in the Civ III general forum. I introduced an utility which chould make Civ III run faster but nobody trusted it. It was funny. How are you guys? Do you still play regularly in the evenings?

For the low trade income I can only think of two possibilities other than the ones you have already mentioned. The game will check if your two cities are connected by RRs each time you deliver a caravan. Maybe somehow it suddenly failed to recognize the RRs. This could be caused by a) a barbarian unit stands on the way, and b)you put down a new city between the two trade ones recently, and thus the new city replaces one of the two cities when considering whether they are connected by RR.

Ming · June 14, 2002, 03:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Xin Yu
Hi guys. I was just fooling around here in the middle of a discussion in the Civ III general forum. I introduced an utility which chould make Civ III run faster but nobody trusted it. It was funny. How are you guys? Do you still play regularly in the evenings?

Yeah... I noticed that thread... and yeah, it was funny that nobody would trust downloading it. I figure if you recommended it, it must be safe... but they felt otherwise...

I'm doing well... and yeah, we still play pretty regularly.
Rah hosts on Friday night from my house, and he also hosts a Saturday night game. I play on weekday nights when I can find somebody. Do you still play any Civ II?

Xin Yu · June 14, 2002, 04:33

Ming, it's very late now. Are you a soccer fan? I'd like to play but I don't have time. Everyday I come back from work and immediately start talking to my wife, who is now studying at Ohio state university. That will occupy my best play time -- from 6pm to 9pm PT. So I guess I can't play online until that changes.

shade · June 14, 2002, 05:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Xin Yu
For the low trade income I can only think of two possibilities other than the ones you have already mentioned. The game will check if your two cities are connected by RRs each time you deliver a caravan. Maybe somehow it suddenly failed to recognize the RRs. This could be caused by a) a barbarian unit stands on the way, and b)you put down a new city between the two trade ones recently, and thus the new city replaces one of the two cities when considering whether they are connected by RR.

* No barbs anywhere(they are the first job at the beginning of a turn)
* it's the same for all cities(except cities that would already have given a little income <200G)
I only added some coastal cities far away from the trading cities

here's the save for those who want to look for possible other reasons:

rah · June 14, 2002, 09:00

Hey XIN, yes as ming already mentioned I still play twice a week. Maybe someday your situation will change and you can join in the fun again. (maybe for CIV IV)

The trade thing is universal. Once it drops, they're all like that. (or at least in my limited experience. I may download that game to check it out. SHADE, do you have the turn before also.

And SHADE, I found your one sentence very disturbing.
"luckilly 99% of the continents is covered with RR so most of them will have the benefit(I'll keep this thing in ming next time) "
I really don't want to know.

RAH

shade · June 14, 2002, 09:38

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
SHADE, do you have the turn before also.

I'll take a look,with a little luck...

Quote:

And SHADE, I found your one sentence very disturbing.
"luckilly 99% of the continents is covered with RR so most of them will have the benefit(I'll keep this thing in ming next time) "
I really don't want to know.

RAH

Ok,this really is disturbing...consider it fixed

Shade

Ming · June 14, 2002, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by shade
Ok,this really is disturbing...consider it fixed

Shade

Thank you...
I was considering banning you

j/k

shade · June 14, 2002, 11:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Thank you...
I was considering banning you

j/k

Oh all mighty Deity I beg you to forgive this humble sinner his mistakes

Shade

Xin Yu · June 14, 2002, 12:24

If the drop in profit is global then it could be linked to number of science required to get a tech. If that number exceeds certain limit (most likely 16*16*16*16) then only the residual exceed that limit is counted. And you can get at most 2/3 of that amount from each trade.

rah · June 14, 2002, 14:01

The first part I could see maybe. But since the drop off is to a max 201, the impact is coming from something else, Something that doesn't vary. And the residual that you mention would vary as you went up in techs.

RAH

shade · June 14, 2002, 14:47

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
The first part I could see maybe. But since the drop off is to a max 201, the impact is coming from something else, Something that doesn't vary. And the residual that you mention would vary as you went up in techs.
RAH

Ok I have attached a zip containing 2 saves(1982 and 1983,the 1982 sav is somewhere at the beginning of the turn)
I think I have 2 1/2 options
option 1: the sum of the trade-arrows, sciencebeakers and gold must stay under 2^16(=65536)
in 1982 this sum is 65347 and in 1983 it's 66K
option 2

just forgot to check it and civ isn't on this computer) sciencebeakercost goes over 2^14(16384)...I'm pretty sure it's over this in 1983 just don't know by hard how much it was in 1982.But on the other hand: 14bit???, 15 and 16bit are used(colors)
option 1/2: the sciencebeakers must be <2^15(32768)
(but I had this overflow before)

this in combo with the fact that this is only checked once every X turns(Odoe years?...but 1983 isn't one,neither is 1982 I thought)...changing (cheating a big city into the game) during the turn doesn't change it.

I don't think it's an overflow of the caravanrevenue, because all the big ones are reduced to a value
200->210(I've seen 201,204,207...wich are in these cases the sum of the the cities trade-arrows)

Neither the sum of science,trade and lux give any "special" value(both times something in 22K)

here's the zip...have fun

Shade

rah · June 14, 2002, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by shade
I don't think it's an overflow of the caravanrevenue, because all the big ones are reduced to a value
200->210(I've seen 201,204,207...wich are in these cases the sum of the the cities trade-arrows)
Shade

Good catch that it's the sum. No one noticed that the last time we had this discussion. So now we better know the what, now we need to nail down the why. :b

RAH

Straybow · June 14, 2002, 16:11

I found the thread: Interesting observations on the effects of roads on trade

Just above the bottom Quantus Satis has two posts. The second has the map of unobstructed recognized routes. The post before the map notes the values that trade routes can have in certain circumstances. Of note, domestic cities with Superhighways and rail connection can't have certain values.

Quote:

Rail: 0,1,2,3,5,6,7,8,10,11,12,13,15,16,17,18,20...43
(4, 9, 14, 19...39 are missing)

Looking at your home territory, obviously Philadelphia's route with Chicago (+14) does not have rail bonus.

Since your cities all have Airports you can't tell whether they have valid road connections, since the Airport supersedes road connection (but not rail).

Nonetheless, when I look at your continent I can tell you that cities on opposite sides of the gap in the middle (see below) probably did not have road bonuses before Airport. Some other time I'll do some cheating and check.

I'm sure most of those trade routes were in effect before 1AD so for a hundred or more turns before you got Airports you lost out on quite a bit of trade.

Straybow · June 14, 2002, 16:24

Every continent seems to have these large gaps where road and rail connections are lost, but obviously your homeland is where one would expect to see the most careful attention.

See the gap in roads on the coast west of Atlanta? That kind of gap also has potential to kill the road bonus, had there been a route between Atlanta and St Louis.

In the Mad 2.42 Succession game I calculated 150-200 trade lost per turn just among the 20ish cities in Scouser homelands averaging 2 routes to the SSC. I think that was probably an underestimate.

So for your case, having well developed cities on both ends increases the effect, and then having double and double again etc the number of cities as your empire grew before rails (when values drop by 33%)… Ouch!

shade · June 14, 2002, 17:40

thx Straybow(for the link and info)

I always thought trade-road/RR connection was only that you had to have a connection between the 2 cities and when both city-radii were roaded/RR then it was ok...not

about those trade-routes...don't remember when I started using them seriously(mostly use caravans for wonders)...this is something I will study closely after my exams(usefull for my own game to...time, I need time...)

Let's now try to figure out the trade-kill bonus

...

Shade

(PS to all those who never tried something like a record-attempt...try it out, it needs quite some more concentration than a usual game...)

Straybow · June 15, 2002, 05:55

Quote:

I don't think it's an overflow of the caravanrevenue, because all the big ones are reduced to a value 200->210(I've seen 201,204,207...wich are in these cases the sum of the the cities trade-arrows)

Interesting, the cities' WGA are in the 50-70 range and normally only WGA are counted for calculating continuing trade route values. So after the "break" trade routes are counted with WGA in place of delivery/damand bonus? Why even write a totally separate routine for a case that can hardly ever be expected to occur?

TCO · June 16, 2002, 01:10

Shade, why are you railroading squares that don't need a RR, when you don't ahve all your cities down? That makes no sense.

shade · June 16, 2002, 05:54

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
Shade, why are you railroading squares that don't need a RR, when you don't ahve all your cities down? That makes no sense.

This means you probably looked at the last save and saw there were only 227 cities:
I have 1 question for you:
HOW GOOD DO YOU THINK CAN CITIES GROW WHEN THEIR ENTIRE CITYRADIUS IS ONLY PLAINS/FORREST/HILL OR MOUNTAINS...STOP NAGGING OVER THOSE FEW CITIES??

about the railroads 2 things
* GO-TO
* enormous distances that caravans have to travel

Shade

TCO · June 16, 2002, 10:10

They grow fine up to a certain siz (off of planes). You can be irrigating/transforming as the city grows too.

You RR squares that don't need it. BAD BOY!

Julius Brenzaida · June 16, 2002, 12:02

GP, are you the holder of the record of the higher score

shade · June 16, 2002, 12:18

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
They grow fine up to a certain siz (off of planes). You can be irrigating/transforming as the city grows too.

without oceansquares(those can give some boost when building a harbor immediatly)
size 2 ...3 max...then you need improvements
(I use engineers to start them of at size 8 in 2 or 3 turns)

Quote:

You RR squares that don't need it. BAD BOY!

...such as? those within the cityradius give me gold(SH) and make movement easier(if there is 1 square roaded guess wich square the AI will want to use in a GO-TO-command???)

Shade

DrFell · June 16, 2002, 14:55

Railroads don't increase trade at all.

Straybow · June 16, 2002, 23:17

GoTo is bad about not using roads and rivers, but tends to use RR. Food "rings" should only be short distances, and no other caravans need to be delivered in one turn. Even then you'd have to have many diversions to road-only tiles to use up a Freight's 2 mp.

TCO · June 17, 2002, 00:01

just take two engineers and have one found a city and the other irrigate it.

You are trying to clean up the sites before starting the cities. that is silly.

shade · June 17, 2002, 04:13

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
You are trying to clean up the sites before starting the cities. that is silly.

-->Where did you get that from???

Quote:

just take two engineers and have one found a city and the other irrigate it.

looks like you didn't read what I wrote:
Irrigating takes 3 turns...
3turns=Size 8 in my case...
after that demo: +1/turn

Quote:

Even then you'd have to have many diversions to road-only tiles to use up a Freight's 2 mp.

3 is enough
(you lose 2/3 to go RR->r->RR )

Shade