Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Hebrew/Israelis

[Eli]

Originally posted by Solomyr
and finally, it is nice to see such a livily discussion going on.
two jews, three opinions might be true, but 14 jews on apolyton gets us 2.435*10^18 opinions

Can I get a list? I'm afraid I missed a couple.
(and get ICQ everyone... it's hard to coordinate actions of the ZOG without communicating )

[Solomyr]

alright, since most of the debating seems to have finished itself out, what are we going to do? take a poll and see if the Hebrews should be an ancient or modern civ? and what should be the UU? i say enough debate. i would love to play my own culture in this game (the American's just don't do it for me, it's their light blue). so let's hear it.

i say middle ages golden age, maccabee UU: req. monotheism, iron; 4/2/1 all terrain as roads (since they were guerillas)

optional: Great wonders
The Bible: all temples also function as libaries (sicence and cul. beneifts) req. polythesim
The Great Temple: extra trade for every square already producing trade, extra happy for all cities on continet. automatically destoryed if city captured (hence only one civ can every have it). ruins add 2 happy to the city. req. monothesim

throughts?

and who is an artist and who is a programmer?

[jdd2007]

well, ive decided the israelis are going to be modern. what should the stats of their UU (zealot?) be?

[Solomyr]

well, i don't think the UU should be a zealot. the israeli army is good, but they really aren't very 'zealious'. i know that this could lead to another agrument, but i see a zealot being someone who is fighting based on religion. and the fact is, while israel is a jewish state, israeli are not very religious as a whole. that is the impression i have been given. since it is a modern civ, i would agree for a special ops unit. you dont' hear about how great the israeli infantry is, or armor, or air force, even though all are excellent. you hear about israel's assasination of terrorist leaders. right or wrong, it is a damn hard thing to know exactly where a person is, and be able to take them out without killing a bunch of innocent people also. yes that can be argued also, but not now, and not here. so a special ops unit should be their UU.

an upgraded marine. i believe the marines are 8.6.1, this unit should be 10.5.1, make paradrops, attack from sea and have diplomats/spy abilities like in civ2, if that is possible. i am basing this off of my idea for a Navy SEALs in the US. and basically i think this unit would just be fun to play.

if not this or similar unit, i suggested an upgraded infantry (defense to match tank), or another creative idea a friend gave to me. let me know what you all think.

[jdd2007]

well what do you suggest this should be called, if zealot doesnt sound good?

[Eli]

Modern? Are you crazy??? HTF can we be modern if the vast majority of our history is 2000+ years old?!

[Gholam]

I still maintain that the UU should be a swordsman/settler

[Eli]

Besides, if you want to make them modern you should call them Israelis. After all, today there is the State of Israel not some Hebrewia.

[Sirotnikov]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
> A few things. Israel should certainly not be a religious state. It >should be a scientific-militaristic nation.

Harel,
What planet of arch-secularism do you come from? I'm a proud MOT myself (as you can tell from my handle)--- but the greatest thing we gave the world, the thing that makes us stand out as special-- was our faith and holy texts. All the commercial, scientific, military and industrial giants we've produced because of our faith binding us together. Would Herzl exist without Rambam? Would Ben-Gurion exist without Ben-Yishai? [/q]
Yet unlike in Real Life, in Civ, having a relgious attribute will NOT make us succeed in war, science or commerce.

If ya hadn't noticed there's no option of "prey" before a war, like ancient Israelis used to do.

The Hebrews/Israelites are DEF a religious civ. I'd throw in commerce too, if nothing else than the glorious stereotype of Jewish bankers/money lenders

You seem to be centered on Modern Israel as the pinnicale of Jewish/Israelite existence. Modern Israel is 6 million people on a planet of 6 billion-- it's hardly worthy to be considered one of the greatest civs to ever walk the planet.

Hmm...
We invented ICQ, PHP, MMX, Pentiums 3 and 4. That's enough scientific and economic power to dominate the world. And (unfortunately) the orthodox relgious jews had little to do with it, as they mostly study only torah and don't work.

I listed more inventions in a previous post.

But the community of Israel from Ancient to Modern stands out, especially the ancient part.

There weren't any big achievements until recently.

Sure, the rules of the Talmud are a great achievement. But no one else uses them and there's no way to insert it in Civ.

Still-- I'll agree there's argument about the UU. Maybe the Merkava-- but certainly not the Levi (it didn't warrant getting produced!! after all...).

Markava is great.
Zealot is agreeable, though I'd like some more historical unit from the times of Solomon.

Why not a unique Spy unit with unique abilities?

Mossad + Military Intel + Shin Bet are the best damn intelligence services in the world.

We managed to infiltrate KGB and provided their documents to the CIA, according to one english author historian.

I hope you mean the generals and not the leaders and that you'd rank Yizhak Rabin above Soloman!! Yitzhak Rabin was a brilliant general, but a Neville Chaimberlian-wannabe as PM, who facilitated the blossoming of a terrorist state within Israel's mist. Even as a General, I'd rank Rabin low-- certainly below

Rabin was quite a good leader. He had great speeches. I disagree that he wasn't a good PM. What he did, was a gamble. He gambled in favour of peace, and lost, as Arafat is a monster.

However, had he been alive, none of this would have hapenned since he'd be the first to crack down on the PLO.

I agree, Ashdod should be there. But I think the Modern Cities should come last on the chart-- after all, they were chronologically established AFTER cities like Hebron, Bethlehem, and Gamla.

Agreed.

Oh... I'm from many places-- but the best answer would be Philadelphia, in the US. Future Israeli... looking to make aliyah in a few years.

Welcome aboard

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Harel
Modern Israel is the pinnacle of the hebrew people.

Not completely true

Their actual size today is not relevent at all. Also, Israel was hardly ever a religious state by definiation (except the time of the Sahandrin). Sure, it was a one-religion nation: but then again, which nation wasn't back then? Israel invented Monotheism first, and that's IT. It's no more religious then the first culture that discover monotheism in Civ. It's NOT religious, and never was a religious state. Religion never dominated our life: for crying out loud, for most of Israel time the absloute majority of Israelies were non-practicing jews! If anything, we are more jewish today then ever.

True.

What it did have was a military and scientific edge, at any given time along all our history. Without doubt, Israel should be a scientific-militaristic nation. We talk about religion all along, but it has very little actual impact on our society and history. We were just the first: that doesn't make us religious.

I'd say commerce + science

BTW, I'd suggest two new Wonders, with explanations:

The Great Temple: Gives the benefits of a temple to every city. Immediately gives the advance of Monotheism. Also builds Palace in the city that builds it.
Requires: Mysticism.
Explanation: Built by the Soloman, the Great Temple solidified Jerusalem's place as the Hebrew capital. It also centralized the Hebrew sacrificial cult in one location, eliminating the need to continue worship at paganesque "High Places." Under the reign of Josiah, the alternative worship places were destroyed, and the Temple rededicated.

The Bible: Every Temple functions as a library (note: build BOTH the Temple and the Bible, and get a free temple + library in every city). Also gives the advance of Monotheism.
Requires: Polytheism
Explanation: The study and commentary on the Bible generated a strong system of religious education among Jews, creating near universal literacy.

Great Wonders!!

However I fear they'll be considered all to powerfull...
Then there's the question which comes earlier?

Religious people claim the bible was given in Sinai.
Researchers claim it was written along 2000+ years until 70 AD (or something).

The temple - the first or second?

By who's definiation, exactly, did it prove distatrous? Not me, and not the majority of the people in Israel. Oh, it's a fine trumpet for Benjamin Netnayhu and Sharon to blast in order to place the blame on their deads. There was nothing wrong with Rabin approach, and there was a steady approach toward peace, that Bibi managed to destroy. Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope.

Firstly, we need a left wing Israeli in the OT (or rather, don't need one )

I myself am center.

I think that even by left-wing standards (and I've been left-wing for very long) Oslo proved to be a failure.

Not at Rabin's fault, but at Arafat's who still uses Oslo as a step in a war against Israel - not a peace process. He even admitted it publically on Arabic media (though it was censored in official Israeli media).

About the economy: sure dude, you are WAY wrong. Rabin built a very strong economy. He may have caused a huge deficit, but he spent billions of dollars in improving Israel high-way systems, replacing the outdated phone systems with state-of-the-art technology, and openned the industry to forgien investors. In 1990 Israel was barely a third-world nation, on blockade for most of the european and eastren companies. We didn't have cable TV, almost no electronics and cars to choose from, computers cost like heck, no one heard of the internet... it was a backwater nation. By 1994 we were a westren economy and the fastest growning economy in the west. Rabin laid the foundations that even Bibi in his folly couldn't destroy. The one who destroyed the economy was, without doubt, Bibi - who took drastic economical steps that just doesn't work in Israel economy, and pushed away most of the forgien investors with his political and economical approach.

Mostly true, but I disagree that bibi ruined the economy.

Ben Guryaon was a sentimental idiot, who openned the country for the current orthodox-occupation by being soft and caving in the only right time to stop the orthodox-leechs on their tracks. He made many gravious mistakes, and he is certainly not such a worthy PM.

Nonsense.
Ben-gurion was a bit crazy, but one of the most rationed leaders. You can't blame him for something he couldn't have anticipated (400 yeshivot students becoming hundreds of thousands), just like you can't blame Rabin for not anticipating Arafat's lies.

And solomon? HUH! Fairy tells, legends and stories. Another king, with the only difference that in his time the kingdom was huge, streching along from Euthopia to Syria.

Huh?
Even the reasearchers that claim so are in a very big minority.

In terms of foreign investments, growth rate, extent of import/export, everything dropped under bibi

not true.
I watch news you know.

Agreed. In terms of economy Bibi caused only damage.

While the peace process problems caused damage, bibi's govt. continued the line of helping the economy, just like Barak did.

If not for

A) World Recession
B) Intifada 2000
C) Sept. 11

We'd be swimming in money right now.

[Sirotnikov]

Wow.

I just made a MOBIUS



This whole Israel thing is troublesome.

Jews have changed alot during thier 5000+ years of existance.

This is exactly why I was and still am against unique traits and unique units.

Jews are a perfect example of a nation that has adjusted to the toughest persecutions and constantly changes.

The thing that I think follows it the most :

commerce + science.

Though we're good warriors now, jews were lousy at war proper. They were good at resisting the philistines and the romans, but eventually lost to them all.

It was in 1880s that we decided - no more. And since 1948 Israel isn't losing.

As for the UU - depends waht do you want to be the golden age.

If it is to be ancient - make it a historical unit that hebrews had.

Zealots would be wrong since zealots only appeared for a short time during the roman occupation, and were killed or killed themselves.

I visited Masada just last week.

For modern Israel - make it either:

Merkava
Spy / Commando

And make sure you have good control over spy abilities...


If you decide to make Israel a modern nation - it should be called Israel, and it can't be religious and commercial.

scientific - militaristic maybe

scientific - commercial is what I think is appropriate since our militarism isn't and was never a trait. It's forced by the enviroment.

I haven't seen jews beeing militaristic outside of Israel - ever. No suicide orthodox bombers. No orthodox crazy militias. No orthodox camikaze fighters.

Hell, even during the holocaust most jews hoped for intervention - either by the allies, fellow men or God. They fought - fought to survive - but not to "win a war".

[Eli]

Aggg!
Dont make it a modern civ! Dont even talk about it.

[jdd2007]

ok, u have persuaded me it will be an ancient civ, and althought you have said that the zealot is not good, but you havnt suggested a suitable ancient alternative...

btw, they cant have a spy because THERE ARE NO SPIES IN CIV3!!!!!!

[Gholam]

Why is a 3.2.1 settler unsuitable?

[Eli]

Why is a 3.2.1 settler unsuitable?

Because it's politically offensive.

Zealot can be nice, as a good defensive unit(that can upgrade to other defensive units later in the game(unlike hoplites)).

[jdd2007]

Why is a 3.2.1 settler unsuitable?

well it would be -really- unbalancing. i dont think this would be historically accurate either, as israel has always been relatively small...

[Gholam]

Um, how is initial conquest of Canaan politically offensive (as that is what I'm referring to with that unit)? As for balancing... if it's a settler upgrade that requires iron working+iron, then it's just a really expensive swordsman with city building capability.

[Solomyr]

it's a shame we can't have a unit that increases the abilities of the units around it. say a priest or a rabbi unit that increases the defense of any unit within two squares of it. IMHO it would reflect the religious connection Jews have felt during the wars, and the fact that hebrews/israeli have never (minus conquering Canaan after the exodus) been a civ that was out to control the world.

so what about a pikeman with an extra movement point? or an extra defense point. could come after monotheism. as far as a name, i am not that well versed in this aspect of history.

and i am reposting my view of the two great wonders proposed:

The Bible: all temples also function as libraries (science and cul. benefits) req. polytheism
The Great Temple: extra trade for every square already producing trade, extra happy for all cities on continent. automatically destroyed if city captured (hence only one civ can every have it). ruins add 2 happy to the city. req. monotheism

thoughts?