Check "The List" Against the Game!: Volunteers Needed (All of Poly Welcome)

[Nikolai]

CIVILIZATIONS
¡XSummarized by Thread Manager: Theben¡X
sicmkit_e@hotmail.com

Most of this thread was a list of ¡§I like this civilization, let¡¦s put it in,¡¨ with some information such as civilization specific units and leaders included for some (but not all) civilizations. According to the survey that Apolyton took, the bulk of us want oodles of civilizations in Civ III, and so included here is a whole slew of what Civers want. The numbering system is simple- Section 1 is all of the civilizations that were proposed, ¡¥a¡¦ being the proposed leaders for that civ, ¡¥b¡¦ being the proposed ¡§civilization specific¡¨ weaponry for that civ. Section 2 is everything else.

1. Big List of Civilizations.
1. Ghana/Mali/Songhai (sub-Saharan civilizations), probably Mali.
a. Sundjata (male, warlike, expansionist); Musa (male peaceful, perfectionist-technologist, religious); Soumauro Kante (male, very warlike); Sogolon (female, peaceful); Sassouma Berete (female, warlike).
2. Japanese:
a. Tokugawa; Hirohito; Hideyoshi (warlike expansionist); Oda Nobunaga (warlike expansionist); Ko Sanjo (female, perfectionist); Tomoe Gozen (female, warlike, perfectionist)
b. Samurai.
3. English:
a. William the Conquerer; Elizabeth I; Winston Churchill; Bernard Montgomery; Tony Blair;
b. b. Longbowmen.
4. Greeks:
a. Plato; Alexander the Great; Basileios II; Pericles; Constantus
5. Americans:
a. George Washington; Abraham Lincoln; FDR; Adams; Jefferson; Nathaniel Greene; Madison; Grant; Johnson; Name That President
6. Babylonians:
a. Sargon; Hammurabi; Nebukadnezzar

If not exactly as we suggested, the civ specific units and leaders are in! We don't know much about the leaders names, but, we can hope!
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On the diplomacy side, we have, as you know, got a much more detailed version. We don't know much specific about the feasibilities, so I wont quote the X pages long chapter!
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On the economic side, we have, by many others(phew! So much! ), these:

1. Pirates and black markets

The element of crime should be more developed then civ II generic "corruption" rating. All money lost from corruption is not just "gone,¡¨ it is transferred to a pirate AI player. When it renly military action is required. Once the pirate units are in place, they will start raiding trade routes, attacking caravans and villages ( see idea 11 ). If a city is unguarded enough, they could even raid a city. All this time, they still gain the money from corruption. They will use the money they get to buy more units, train them, and build fortresses. Once they are firmly in place, they will start using spies that will bribe cities. A bribed city by the pirates has more corruption ( generating even more money to the pirates ), all money gotten directly from the banks and market places go to the pirates ( the extra credit gotten from the bonus ), and pirate units are invisible in the city vision radius. All this time, the pirates will save enough money for their big task: bribing a city into their hands. Once pirates own a city, they form a new civ. They cannot build a new city, however. Pirates also have a good use to the smart emperor: a high presence of pirates creates black markets. You can buy your military units from the black market with a reduced cost, but it will enrich the pirates even more. More, you can even bribe and manipulate your local pirates ( or the ones the other civ have ), and make them raid/steal/spy for you. Pirates are also a good source for experienced mercenaries for hire.

AFAIK, not in.

2. Budgets
Budgets, like in real life. The bonus gotten from libraries, for example would be decided by how much you put in Education. That money is divided among all libraries and universities. The higher the gold per institute, the bigger bonus they give. Hospital bonus by health, wealthfare gives happiness ( divided by all the populace, like Luxuries ), military would be divided between the support cost of all units and decide what morale bonus/minus you get, etc. ( In democracy/republic, the senate should demand a minimum portion to some section. ) The different budget sections:
„h Science ( labs and science rate )
„h Education ( libraries, universities, college wonders )
„h Health ( hospital, care for cancer wonder )
„h Defense ( military infra-structure, barracks, and units )
„h Internal affairs ( Police, intelligence and reducing unrest )
„h Wealthfare ( happiness bonus: like luxuries )
„h Transportation ( Support of road tiles and Mans transport building [ highways, mass transit ] )
„h Construction ( reserve money to buy city building and wonders )
„h Arts ( support for wonders )
„h Agriculture ( support for farms )
„h Religion ( the bonus for temples/church )
„h Trade ( caravans are bought of a pool created here )

Not in.

3. Diplomacy

Via the diplomatic screen, you can sign several trade treaties and agreements. The first thing is the creation of trade pacts, or alliances, between three or more nations. In this trade alliance, you all automatically trade between you ( with a nice big bonus ). Also, all of the below treaties suggested are done with a bigger profit and efficiency then before. Active trade improve the relations between two nations. The more treaties you sign, the better the level of diplomatic relations will exist between the two nations. The suggested treaties have been posted on the various threads:

It's in! We don't know exactly how, and what, but it is in!
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The Village model, is in as I see it, but not exactly as we suggested(colonies):

3.4) The Village Model

In the context of Civ 2: Villages function as terrain improvers, by either farming or mining. They are all size 1, though size 2 might be possible late in the game, increasing productivity. Food and Mined resources are automatically sent to a nearby host city, whose population either gathers resources from it's own square, or processes the resources the villages send them (all population in a city not gathering from its own square are either labourers, traders, or scientists). Otherwise, cities function the same as in Civ 2.

New Benefits: ¡§City radius is no longer used. You can use every square in your territory if you desire, and keep the cities in logical places, like on the coast and river junctions, where cities historically thrived.¡¨ Rural population is represented and strategically important (to capture or defend). Makes the logical split between resources and industry easier to manage.
Further, the villages belong to a region and send food straight to it. Cities in the region receive it as needed. Infrastructure is still placed in individual cities, but the industry is calculated centrally, to ease micromanagement. Regions are likewise good for reducing micromanagment, and the overall model more accurately shows the rural/urban population shift brought about by better agriculture.

Discussion: Villages are the only place to put non-specialists. These would work the village squares, gathering materials from the square they were on and nowhere else. Cities contain only specialists -- labourers produce industry, which is used to process the resources harvested in the countryside. ¡§¡KVillages would be built by a "public works" type system, rather than by a unit. They could be autobuilt by the AI or queued by the player¡K Villages don't count towards any particular city, but are shared within a region. ¡KThe maximum distance from the main city would be dependant upon the technology level, or whether it is linked by road, railroad, etc.¡¨ It was suggested that you can transfer villagers along a clear road, so if the enemy blocks off your road, the only place you can put the villagers is in the city ¡V which would have a maximum capacity beyond which negative effects begin to be felt.

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The ICS issue; Partly as suggested:

6. Gameplay Issues

6.1) Balancing Civs More Realistically

In the context of Civ 2: a civ with 30 cities was 10 times stronger then one with 3 cities ( if not more ). This isn't true in real life ¡V Israel, for example, leads the world in several technologies and it's army is far better trained than would be modeled in Civ 2.
To solve this, the ¡§power model¡¨ in Civ 3 would add, for example, +10% for the morale in a US size civ, but a +50% bonus for a civ like Israel. Smaller civs get much bigger bonuses for the same modifier than bigger civs.
Benefits: More realistic. It will make civ much more interesting, as conquering a smaller civ will be more difficult. Also, it opens the road for the much missed diplomacy, trade and scientific learning.

The "power model" is not with, AFAIK, but Firaxis have said they have solved the prblem.

[yin26]

Nikolai: Some good stuff! I'll update this info soon.

BY THE WAY, TAKE A LOOK AT THE E3 LIST! SOME OF IT IS DEAD ON! I'll include these in the first post for easy reference.

FIRAXIS, THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL CIV3!
(27 March 2000, 15:16 EST/Civ3) After lot's of discussion and voting, this is the Essential Civ3 List: the fixes that need be done and the new ideas that must be in Civ3 in order to deserve the number "3" in it's title. The number next to each item is the votes it got in the final vote:

Fixes
1. Trade - 105
2. Diplomacy - 86
3. Make It Harder For Civs To Last - 73
4. Comprehensive Scenario Editor - 72
5. Improved Road & Rail Rules - 72

New Ideas
1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75
2. Domestic Politics - 63
3. New Modes of Victory - 52
4. Energy - 48
5. Stacking - 46 TIE
5. Religion - 46 TIE

others receiving votes

Fixes
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52
7. No more Instant City Conversions - 52
8. Amazing City Veiw - 42
9. Faster Smoother Graphics/Interface - 35
10. Multiplayer Startup Option - 26

New Ideas
7. Open Source AI - 44
8. Expanding City Radius - 43
9. Detailed Replay - 41
10. Hex Based Map - 40
11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36
11. Different Levels of Cities - 36
13. Recruitment System - 29
14. Automatic Patrolling - 23
15. Tourism - 20

The "official" letter to Firaxis will be sent in the coming days.
(Note: it's pretty encouranging to see that the first two fixes(trade and diplomacy) were already mentioned in Sid's recent message as things where there is going to be lots of imporevment)

[yin26]

korn: You did ONE HELL OF A JOB with that Essential List. Several hats off to you and all the people who took the 500 pages and voted on them, etc., to make that wonderful thing.

[Ozymandous]

Question about that news item from Tim. Is Tim past of the team that is/was developing Civ3 now, or was he with Brian Reynolds?

Wonder if Brian left because he wanted to make the game revolutionary and not evolutionary?

[yin26]

One more and I've got to sleep:

Energy could be derived from animal power, wood, water, wind, coal, oil, uranium, and solar, depending on your current level of technology. The map would seed certain Special Energy Resources according to their energy yield potential. E.g., the more profitable the resource is to exploit, the less frequently it would appear on the map. Perhaps Uranium, which might yield the most barrels per site of all, would be the hardest to find.

Ummm, RESOURCES anybody!?

Trade routes are automatically set up with cities that supply a comodity and cities that demand a comodity within the explored territory of that caravan's home civilization (similar to Alpha Centauri's system, but with commodities) using autopathfinding (pathfinding in Alpha Centauri was superb and up to this task) these routes are displayed as lines on the map, and with blocking such lines with a military unit you could either pirate or block all together.

Ummm, END OF CARAVANS (automatic routes setup and the supply line back to the capital) anybody!?

Sorry if my excitement is annoying anybody. It's just that so many months later to see some of this stuff in the game is just too damn awesome. I know the overall game could still be weak, but this is great stuff to see.

[yin26]

Is Tim past of the team that is/was developing Civ3 now, or was he with Brian Reynolds?

Yep, that's the Tim who left shortly thereafter. Which really sucked at the time because he was so cool about keeping us informed...

[yin26]

I lied...one more then sleep. This is from something I posted long before any LE was announced.

I think a "Civer Edition" Civ3 would simply be awesome.

How much would I pay?: approximately $70-80

What would I want to see inside it?:

• A game CD with a cool map of the world on it.
• Civ1 and 2 on a special "Civ Collector's" CD, with the original manuals in .pdf format (only if some deal could be struck with Microprose, of course).
• A cloth map of the world (or a great fold-out with cool historical facts and a timeline on the back).
• A "Making of Civ3" CD which includes the music tracks and sound effects.
• A paperback History of the World by some well-known historian.
• I wonder how much it would cost to put in a Britannica "History of the World" or "History of War" CD in the box?
• A pewter figurine (each box is different!). You would get one of the follwing: A globe; a phalanx; a bomber; a nuclear missile; or a settler. 1000 lucky fans would get ALL of them! Of course, each one would have "CivIII" stamped on it somewhere.
• A letter from Sid, Jeff and Firaxis. You know, one of those simulated signature ones telling us how cool it's been working on the game and how great the Civ fans are. =)

[Faboba]

Well you missed out the biscuit tin............

[CapTVK]

Phew, I remember all the activity going on when the plan was announced for the great list (the inspiration was a 'great list', made by original civ1 fans, that served as inspiration for civ2).

Somewhere, buried very deeeeeeep in the economics section there's a small mention made by me on making units 'resource specific' (aka coal and iron for battleships etc...). Guess it came through, there were plenty of other resource based ideas mentioned though.


Only gripe is that the resource model is quite limited in scope:
In Civ3 the model now is

one coal resource = coal for all cities

I had hoped it would be limited (3 cities max by trade routes), a bit unrealistic now. Unless resources are really scarce.

Originally posted by CapTVK
Phew, I remember all the activity going on when the plan was announced for the great list (the inspiration was a 'great list', made by original civ1 fans, that served as inspiration for civ2).

Somewhere, buried very deeeeeeep in the economics section there's a small mention made by me on making units 'resource specific' (aka coal and iron for battleships etc...). Guess it came through, there were plenty of other resource based ideas mentioned though.


Only gripe is that the resource model is quite limited in scope:
In Civ3 the model now is

one coal resource = coal for all cities

I had hoped it would be limited (3 cities max by trade routes), a bit unrealistic now. Unless resources are really scarce.

That's not exactly how it is. I've read from ealier posts by Dan that, for instance, if you have a "horse" resource and you trade it (having made all road or waterway connections needed) it will NOT be available for you to build things that would require "horse's"(like knights) if that was your only "horse" resource.

But, you are correct in that it IS available to every city within the civ that has control over that resource. But, if I rember correctly(from same thread), a resource can 'dry up' from overuse. The only way to find more resorces is to allocate more workers to do just that. So, in a way, it is(the resorce) available to all cities within a civ, but there are limits to how much of it is available(for how long).

[yin26]

Cap: Have a look at some of these from the section you mentioned.

Unit support requires metal. Unit construction also requires that metal be available above metal resources spent supporting existing units.

Certain technologies (and units built from them) require exotics. Each exotic deposit would be identified as one named material. Bronze and Electronics each requires copper, so Phalanx and modern high-tech units require copper. Wooden ships require old growth hardwoods. Jet aircraft require titanium. Elephants and even horses might be considered exotic "materials." A full list would have to be developed.

Iron is required for all military units except warriors, archers, horsemen, and wooden transport ships. Iron counts double towards all unit construction. Iron is available in hills and mountains.

Require roads and tile improvements to make materials accessible to the city.

After discovery of Nuclear Fission special resource Uranium can be found.

Other exotic materials could be modeled in this way as well. Motorized, mechanized and flying units could require Rubber. Jet aircraft could require Titanium. To make a game really difficult for human players (especially in multiplayer games), make Oil in §16.4.7 required for all modern units

Special terrain types (such as Silk) utilized by workers enable the city to trade certain commodities. Special materials Timber, Gold, and Oil (§16.4), exotics (as used in §16.3.5), and rare materials (§16.15) allow certain trade commodities in a city controlling those resources.

If the item needs forest, and your settlers clear too much, it's gone. Climate changes over centuries may destroy trade agriculture in some cases, even if global warming etc is not as pronounced in Civ3 as in Civ2.

Wow. Firaxis almost EXACTLY used some of this stuff !

[yin26]

I just want to say that, assuming the AI is competent enough to handle it, this resource support model is one of the most outstanding improvments of the game (again, assuming it was implemented well).

A BIG round of applause to Cap and the other guys who came up with it.

[yin26]

Sid from the Gamespot interview:

It's pretty straightforward. If you don't have certain strategic resources, you can't build certain units. For instance, without horses, a player won't be able to build chariots, horsemen, knights, cavalry, and so forth. Without oil, you can't build battleships, bombers, tanks, and so on. Most units, including the special ones, require one or more strategic resources. Players will probably find that their short-term strategy will be shaped by the realities of which resources they have and don't have--launching wars to obtain certain resources, building distant colonies, entering into one-sided trade agreements to gain access to saltpeter so they can build musket men. All these changes, along with the changes to the technologies, wonders, and units, make Civilization III more challenging and more historically realistic.

[eNo]

Hmmm..when did the last version of the list go out? There was huge gap in the middle of Civ3 development when I stopped following. Just wasn't getting enough info out of Firaxis.

Heh..wonder if I can dig out my name....

[Theben]

btw, ThebeniX (Theben-X) is not me. That was a top-secret version of me that was in development at the time.

[Jusbaummer]

Wow, it would be a huge work to even read this thread completely...

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by yin26
I just want to say that, assuming the AI is competent enough to handle it, this resource support model is one of the most outstanding improvments of the game (again, assuming it was implemented well).

A BIG round of applause to Cap and the other guys who came up with it.

"blushes"

Well the resource based model is a step in the good direction but I had hoped that it would be tied in with the trade system (e.a only cities that receive those resources directly or by trade can build specific units. I know exactly why they did it: gameplay issues. (which is a good thing). It makes things far easier to keep track of but I do hope that resource squares (not those classic squares for food/shield bonus etc) are rare. If they're spread around as in Civ2 we'll have special resources coming out of ears and not much places to trade them with (as other civs will have those resources too).

It could become an issue once the initial excitement has died down though. This is exactly the sort of thing people would gripe about: "Waaaah, the Civ3 resource model is unrealistic! How can one resource square supply the entire empire!?". Whilst forgetting it's just a game, not a full historic simulation.

[yin26]

-=*BUMP*=- (as some people are asking about this)

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Jusbaummer
Wow, it would be a huge work to even read this thread completely...

Lazy newbie?

[TCO]

Yin,

Could you do an analysis of the "If just one idea?" list and results. Would make a nice column. would not be as arduaous as the results of the complete list.

[DarkCloud]

Yin- and now we have an official spot for Civ IV ideas to be compiled
If it gets too large I think I'll start multiple threads- do you want to help out?

The thread is entitled:

Civ IV: The List

[CB2034]

yin... the more i read your post... the more i think that whatever career u are in is the wrong one.... u should be a professional beta tester... kudos on the great post again

[TCO]

It would be a good idea to restart this with a fresh thread, Yin.

In particular, I'm interested in the cheats. What was/wasn't fixed. Any remaining "easy to fix" cheats?