Oh No, No Spies?

tuckson · October 18, 2001, 04:17

Greeved with terror I just learned THEY took away my spies?

One of the finest units in tha game. I liked them.
Why, oh why?

Now how to play the dirty tricks? Now how to focus on military strenght and right after starting a war steal al remaining techs?

Now how to blow up citywalls to easly capture cities and rush through enemy areas?

Oh, how dark future can be...

Sigh..., Guess I'll have to learn some other strategies.

But the question remains, what was wrong with them (them spies I mean)?

Wexu · October 18, 2001, 04:23

Oh God, not again one of these posts!

Ironwood · October 18, 2001, 05:07

There are still spies. They just don't have a tactical location (as it should be). I have a feeling it'll work similar to the way it did in MOO2, meaning you'll have an "espionage screen" and will be able to assign your intelligence community to various tasks. I do hope, however, that it's more effective or at least intuitive than in MOO2. I never could get my spies to work properly in that game.

tuckson · October 18, 2001, 05:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Wexu
Oh God, not again one of these posts!

Hey thanx, but you may call me Tuckson, OK?

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironwood
There are still spies. They just don't have a tactical location (as it should be). I have a feeling it'll work similar to the way it did in MOO2, meaning you'll have an "espionage screen" and will be able to assign your intelligence community to various tasks. I do hope, however, that it's more effective or at least intuitive than in MOO2. I never could get my spies to work properly in that game.

No there are not. Mike Breitkreutz explaned, have a look at the Apolyton newsitem form 17 oct. about espionage. Small quote:

Quote:

Diplomats and spies are indeed gone but you can still perform espionage missions.

I'm curious and anxious at the same time.
Hmmm... but we're OK now.

1Razor · October 18, 2001, 05:56

I am also a little perturbed by the fact that spies will not feature to the degree that they did in Civ2. I found them a valuable source when all the other nations started ganging up against you.

They were a lot better than the spies in CTP1/2!

Grumbold · October 18, 2001, 06:16

There is an espionage screen for doing all the things spies do. So the spy unit is no longer on the board but spies are still a part of your empires resources. Whether you fund espionage as a % of your income or build spy units which only sit on the espionage screen I don't know. Both styles have been used successfully in the past. This is a good answer to the previous problems of one-man units blocking roads and needing military units to kill which has always been absurd. You should never have been able to block routes with diplomats and spies, forcing the opponent to jump through hoops just to move through their own country.

LaRusso · October 18, 2001, 06:32

MOO2 system was actually fine, I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

Wexu · October 18, 2001, 06:32

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
MOO2 system was actually fine, I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

I agree!

Sarxis · October 18, 2001, 06:46

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
...I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

One reason why I like it more is it adds to the sense of 'secrecy' to espionage activities. No units on the map means "where are those damnable infiltrators now?".

I loik it lot

I just hope the new system isn't over simplified.

tuckson · October 18, 2001, 06:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
There is an espionage screen for doing all the things spies do. So the spy unit is no longer on the board but spies are still a part of your empires resources. Whether you fund espionage as a % of your income or build spy units which only sit on the espionage screen I don't know. Both styles have been used successfully in the past. This is a good answer to the previous problems of one-man units blocking roads and needing military units to kill which has always been absurd. You should never have been able to block routes with diplomats and spies, forcing the opponent to jump through hoops just to move through their own country.

Hmmm... Haven't thought on this. Sounds indeed like a valid reason to change the concept.

However, with the concept of borders, it shouldn't be too hard to make it so that a spy unit can mnve freely within your own borders. It doesn't make sense for any unit to be blocked within your borders anyway.

Red alert had a nice feature for spies. They looked like enemy soldiers.

That's also a cool approach.

Grumbold · October 18, 2001, 07:01

Quote:

Originally posted by tuckson
However, with the concept of borders, it shouldn't be too hard to make it so that a spy unit can mnve freely within your own borders. It doesn't make sense for any unit to be blocked within your borders anyway.

That would help, but should an enemy tank division have to expend a combat action to kill a spy just because it was invading your country? If spies were cheaper than infantry divisions you can bet some multiplayer games would see walls of them as a cheap way of delaying the enemy.

I like special units (unlike many detractors of CtP) but their inability to share territory with enemy units was their worst drawback.

tuckson · October 18, 2001, 07:14

To the enemy they could be shown as workers or settlers as long as they'ld be inside their native borders. The enemy would never know it's a spy.

campmajor! · October 18, 2001, 07:29

Hmm, there were positive and negative sides about spies.

Just wonder how it will going to be. Well, we'll wait and see.

Theben · October 18, 2001, 10:43

If you thought that was bad, try playing SMAC with APTs (armored probe teams). Cheap units that could cause any enemy a lot of grief.

I applaud the move to an espionage screen.