Espionage Options Extremely Disappointing!!

[Ozymandous]

I just hope that you can add more "counter-intelligence" aka spies to your "network" like in MOO to help cut down the chances of people stealing your tech.

Nothing worse than your allies stealing tech or some idiotic Civ still using knights to get lucky and steal tanks! Argh, they should have seperated the tech's that allow you to see resources from those that build units (if they haven't already!).

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
A civ advance such as Nuclear Fission is not a tech per se, but a body of accumulated knowledge with the scientists who understand this knowledge.

Well, yes, but you can buy the scientists, can´t you?

This is, among other things, what 'espionage' in civgames represents.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

Well, yes, but you can buy the scientists, can´t you?

Yeah, true. But in order to put the "behind the scenes" infrastrucutre in place, you should atleast have to pay cash to steal advances.... personally I think the idea of infiltrating another civilisation, which then boosts your own research (dramatically!) is much more realistic, altough simple trading is attractive from a... simplicity... point of view.

[Grumbold]

I'll second the puzzlement at the city investigation only showing improvements, not denfesive units too. Seeing the improvements isn't much use unless you can then try to destroy them (or bribe someone to open the city gates etc).

Still, if counterintelligence works better than it ever has in any unit based spy game all the rest will be worth it.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi Guys,
OK, I'm now reasonably happy with the list of spy missions, but I still feel like there is something MISSING?! Specifically, poison water supply and Plant Nuclear device!!! I know these missions should be VERY hard to accomplish, and that they are used only rarely, but I still want them as options.
In addition, I hope that the Sabotage mission is not just limited to current projects, but can be used to destroy existing ones! I know this can be done with bombardment units in war, but what if I just want a cool stand-off situation like the one which existed between U.S.A/U.S.S.R? Then I want a way of hurting a civ without an all-out declaration of war (but a good chance of a SERIOUS diplomatic incident-assuming they catch you!!!). It's possible that this is already the case (I mean, if they could forget 2 WHOLE missions, then it's possible that they made an error concerning sabotage!)
As for the old "Incite Revolt" mission, I have a feeling that, when using Propoganda to convert a city to your civ, then stage one will involve inciting a revolt against the parent Civ (at least, that's how I read it!) Of course, if you don't want the city, then you could just cease the mission once it starts revolting!!!
So what do the Firaxians have to say? Are ALL the old espionage missions still in, or must we do without the wanton carnage caused by planting nuclear devices?!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Comrade Tribune]

Furthermore, it should also be possible for player A to attack player B and frame player C, perhaps resulting in a war between B and C. A war between two of your enemies would be the ultimate secret service achievement.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Comrade, I like the way you think!!!
I do that a lot in "Birth of the Federation", especially if I'm playing the Cardassians! "BotF", of course, has the same abstracted espionage system as CivIII is going to have, so Idon't see why it can't be done!!

The_Aussie_Lurker

[Inverse Icarus]

wasn't that in SMAC (it's been a while), couldnt you frame other leaders?

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by UberKruX
wasn't that in SMAC (it's been a while), couldnt you frame other leaders?

Yes it was. And it was more likely to fail if you chose to attempt it.

[Lorizael]

Oh that would be awesome if you could blame it on someone else! Then I might actually use espionage!

I'm hoping with the new espionage and nukes, we will really be able to have a Cold War type situation.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Lorizael

I'm hoping with the new espionage and nukes, we will really be able to have a Cold War type situation.

True, but it might end up in a mess like in the WW79
scenario of CiC. BTW, we haven't heard so
much of the missile units (at least not nukes) in Civ III.

[markusf]

Spies where totally rediculus in civ2.. In a multiplayer game a few weeks ago i was losing to a player who had an empire 4 times my size. I built 4 spies and destroyed him in 5 turns. Go and send in 40 spies and destroy every single improvement in a size 30 city then move onto the next... you criple the whole civ. Then to be really nasty you poison the water supply of cities fielding a lot of units and they all disband.

[Lonestar]

I too, am disappointed in the options.

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

**Dancing on air** YESSS!!! They got rid of that idiotic "Steal Technology" option!!! One less method for the AI to rip off your hard-earned research!!! **Dancing on air**

CYBERAmazon

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by CYBERAmazon
Everyone:

**Dancing on air** YESSS!!! They got rid of that idiotic "Steal Technology" option!!! One less method for the AI to rip off your hard-earned research!!! **Dancing on air**

CYBERAmazon

Crap. I just saw the "omitted" missions, one of which is the damnable "Steal Technology" option.

Feeling like I am in the gutters now ...

CYBERAmazon

(P.S. Nah! I'll dance anyway!!! **Dancing on air**)

[Atahualpa]

Blow up buildings should be in.

As we have seen last month this IS possible and realistic too.


But no, since now such a terrible act has committed NOBODY must mention it anytime again. And everybody must not show anything that could be related to this tragedy.
This will become the same **** political correctness has become.


Sincerely,
ata

[Dimension]

OMG.

I can't believe how many pathetic people actually said, "YES! That's great that they took out tech stealing! It's so unfair!"

There is not a single legitimate reason to complain about spies stealing techs. If you are in the tech lead, it's because you have focused more on research than anyone else. The more focused you are on research, the less adequate your defense is. If you have inadequate defense, you should be punished.

I mean seriously, excuse me if I can't stop laughing at how ignorant it is to say spies are overpowered. LOOK AT THE SPY. It's not a battleship with 50 defense. It's a pathetic little spy that dies horribly to any other unit. Taking out tech stealing would be awful, because it's the only hope for someone who has bad luck and needs to play catch-up. If the enemy has tanks, you're not going to build enough spearmen to stop them. You have to get your own tanks. A spy is such a cheap unit to build. If you're in the tech lead you have no excuse for not being able to have a few spies on defense at your ports and borders.

And thank God that bombers can destroy improvements now that spies can't. Civ2 and SMAC are both ridiculously skewed in favor of an expansionist builder strategy focusing on research. Sure, it would be nice if you couldn't skip entire generations of technology when you steal it, but people keep bringing that up, and it certainly isn't the biggest realism issue I can think of. What about in Civ2 when a plane takes one turn to fly to its destination one one turn to fly back? Did the plane have two years of fuel? What about all the OCC players? Does that make any sense at all for that to be possible?

If there was ever any argument that spies were overpowered, it was in SMAC when you could make Probe Foils (spy boats) very early in the game. SMAC also had the option to "infiltrate datalinks," which gives you an embassy and lets you see what every enemy city is producing for the rest of the game. There was also a secret project (wonder) that gave you free inflitration of every enemy civlilzation. Even that could be dealt with easily. You just had to build your own spies and infiltrate everybody to even the field, and even if they were using spy boats, you could defend with regular spies which were cheaper to make. Defense in general was also tougher in SMAC, because railroads (mag tubes) showed up much later in the game. Still the game wasn't unbalanced, and most people would tell you that spying was one of the most fun aspects of SMAC.

Spies are much weaker in Civ3. They can't blow up improvements. They can't plant nuclear devices or poison the water supply. Someone's not going to overwhelm you with spies, because if you declare war, they can't use your railroads.

I only wish they had made nukes in Civ3 work like they did in SMAC. Nukes didn't just kill units and cause a population decrease--they obliterated the city and turned the entire radius into a lake.

If anything was too powerful in Civ2, it was diplomacy. I know it's changed a lot in Civ3, and I certainly hope it isn't nearly as useful. Let's say Genghis Khan rides up to your back door, and your civilization is much weaker. If you show him how to make gunpowder and explain your research on iron working, do you think he will become "worshipful" and go away, thanking you for the info?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Dimension

I can't believe how many pathetic people actually said, "YES! That's great that they took out tech stealing! It's so unfair!"
...
I mean seriously, excuse me if I can't stop laughing at how ignorant it is to say spies are overpowered. LOOK AT THE SPY. It's not a battleship with 50 defense. It's a pathetic little spy that dies horribly to any other unit.
...
If anything was too powerful in Civ2, it was diplomacy. I know it's changed a lot in Civ3, and I certainly hope it isn't nearly as useful. Let's say Genghis Khan rides up to your back door, and your civilization is much weaker. If you show him how to make gunpowder and explain your research on iron working, do you think he will become "worshipful" and go away, thanking you for the info?

I want to read more posts such as this one!

[Dogbert]

I like it as it is.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

OK,
My feeling on the whole "steal tech" issue is that, though I'm glad it's in, I had hoped that it would work differently.
What I hoped for was that, if you announce you want to steal tech from a more advanced Civ, then you would gain a massive boost to your current research!
For example, if you are currently researching metallurgy, and it normally takes 20 turns-then stealing this technology from a more advanced Civ might give you 10 "free turns" worth of research!!
The number of "free turns" you'd get would depend on the tech type, eg. military/economic advances would give you the greater bonus, wheras cultural/theoretical advances (like Philosphy or Free Artistry) might only get you 2-3 extra turns along (representing the more "nebulous" nature of such advances). Having Scientific method should give you a greater "free turn" bonus for any tech stolen, to represent your Civs ability to more accurately reverse engineer any stolen research!
As for poison water supply (Bioterrorism), should definitely be in, as it will now be a more balanced weapon with the introduction of hospitals!
Additionally, sabotaging existing improvements and planting nuclear devices sould most definitely BE IN!!!!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.