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Old October 19, 2001, 14:45   #1
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Expansion Pack Civ explained: Celts
I personally would rather have a real nation like Scotland or Ireland represent the Celts but people have voted over wellingly for the inclusion of a more broadly defined Celtic civ. So without further ado here is the first proposal for a Celtic civ.

--------------
* The Celts *
--------------
Names: Celtic Empire, Celts, Celtic
Time Period: 500B.C. and 200 A.D. (though states such as Scotland & Ireland survive to this day)
Leader: King Arthorius (Arthur)
Unique units: Woad Warrior; a swordsman that has a +1 to movement
CSAs: Commercial and either Militerist or Religious.

Historical Significance: A widely spread cultural group that dominated Europe from 500B.C. to 200A.D.; Celtic artifacts have been found in Asia Minor and as far away as the Tarim basin, Xinjiang provience, China.

Description:
CELTS:- An ancient people who dominated much of Western , Central , Eastern Europe and Asia Minor in the 1st millennium bc, giving their language, customs, and religion to the other peoples of that area.
History:- The earliest found archaeological evidence associated with the Celts places them in what is now France and western Germany in the late Bronze Age around 1200 bc. In the early Iron Age, they are associated with the Halstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) named for an archaeological site in Upper Austria. They probably began to settle in the British Isles during this period. Between the 5th and 1st centuries bc , their influence extended from what is now Spain , the islands of the British Isles to the shores of the Black Sea , from the Ukraine to Turkey. This huge land/cultural region ( never an 'Empire') encompassing the areas mentioned influenced much of the continent of Europe and was greater in size then modern European Russia. Despite the shared religion/language and culture this large area was never politically united , finding only brief periods of unity when threatened by common foes. The later Iron Age phase of Celtic Culture is called La Tene, after a site in Switzerland and dates from the previously mentioned 5th to 1st centuries bc. Evidence from this period suggests that the Celts were the first peoples of Europe to actively use and work with iron. The word Celt is derived from Keltoi, the name given to these people by Herodotus and other Greek writers. To the Romans, the Continental Celts were known as Galli, or Gauls; those in Britain were called Britanni. In the 4th century bc the Celts invaded the Greco-Roman world, conquering northern Italy and sacking Rome, whilst also conquering Macedonia and Thessaly. They plundered Rome in 390, sacked Delphi in 279, and penetrated Asia Minor, where they were known as Galatians. The "Cisalpine Gauls" of northern Italy were conquered by the Romans in the 2nd century bc .Transalpine Gaul (modern France and the Rhineland) was subdued by Julius Caesar in the 1st century bc. and most of Britain came under Roman rule in the 1st century ad. In the same period. the Celts of central Europe being fragmented came under the domination by the Germanic peoples. In medieval and modern times the Celtic tradition and languages survived in Brittany ( Western France), Cornwall, Galicia ( North Western Spain) , Galatia ( Central Turkey), Wales, the Scottish Highlands, Isle of Man and Ireland, and to a lesser extent in the Norse/Celtic culture of Iceland.

Way of Life:- The various Celtic tribes were bound together by common speech, customs, and religion, rather than by any well defined central governments. There government was through the use of a feudal system with each tribe being headed by a king/chief and was divided by class into Druids (priests), warrior nobles, and commoners/freemen and slaves . Politically there was a great degree of democracy within the society with both men and women being treated equally and all important decisions being made at tribal gatherings in which women had an equal voice. Rulers were subject to removal at these gathering if found unsatisfactory or incompetent and succession was not necessarily hereditary. The absence of any large scale political unity amongst the tribes contributed substantially to the extinction of their way of life, making them vulnerable to their enemies. Their economy was pastoral and agricultural and they had no real urban life however trade played a large part in there economy . The nobles fought on foot with swords and spears and were fond of feasting and drinking. Celtic mythology, which included earth gods, various woodland spirits, and sun deities, was particularly rich in elfin demons and tutelaries, beings that still pervade the lore of peoples of Celtic ancestry.
Celtic Christianity:- The Christian faith was well established in Celtic Britain by the 4th century ad, but in the 5th century the Saxons and other Germanic peoples invaded the country, driving most of the Celtic Christians into Wales and Cornwall. At the same time. St. Patrick and other British missionaries founded a new church in Ireland, which then became the centre of Celtic Christianity. The Irish church developed a distinctive organization in which bishops were subordinate to the abbots of monasteries .The Irish monks, devoted to learning as well as religion, did much to preserve a knowledge of ancient Roman literature in early medieval Europe. Between the late 6th and the early 8th centuries, Irish missionaries were active in Christianizing the Germanic peoples that had conquered the Western Roman Empire, and they founded numerous monasteries in present-day France, Germany, Switzerland , and Italy. Celtic Christianity in Ireland was weakened by the Viking invasions of the 9th and 10th centuries, and by the 12th century its characteristic institutions, which were incompatible with those of the dominant Roman church, had largely disappeared from Europe.

Art:- Celtic art is considered the first great contribution to European art made by non Mediterranean peoples. Its roots go back to the artisans of the Urnfield culture and the Hallstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) at the beginning of the Iron Age. It flowered in the period of the La Tene culture. Although Celtic art was influenced by ancient Persian, Greek, Etruscan, and Roman art and by that of the nomads of the Eurasian steppes it developed distinctive characteristics. These are evident in its major artefacts-weapons, vessels, and jewelry in bronze, gold, electrum and occasionally silver. Many of these objects were made for chieftains in southern Germany and France and were recovered from their tombs. The Celtic style is marked by a preference for stylised plant motifs, usually of Greek origin, and fantastic animals, derived from the Scythians and other steppe peoples; however the human figure tended to play a secondary role. Other favourite motifs are elliptical curves and opposing curves. spirals, and chevrons, also derived from steppe art. These elements were combined in dynamic yet balanced, intricate geometrical patterns carried out in relief engraving, or red, yellow, blue, and green champleve enamel on shields, swords, sheaths, helmets, bowls, and jewelry. They also appeared on painted pottery cinerary urns, food vessels, incense bowls, and drinking cups. Examples of Celtic art include torcs, or neck rings, with the two open ends ornamented with animal heads, the silver repousse Cundestorp cauldron (c. 400 bc . National Museum, Copenhagen), a bronze lozenge-shaped shield with circular medallions and small enamel circles (1st cent. bc - 1st cent. ad ), and a bronze mirror with enamelled decoration (1st cent. bc) (both British Museum. London). Also surviving are roughly carved stone monuments and wooden objects. During the period of Roman domination of Western Europe in and after the 1st century bc the art of Celtic peoples on the Continent gradually lost its distinctive style. The Celts of Ireland continued to work with traditional motifs but as Christianity took hold, they combined them with Christian motifs and employed their skills in the service of the church.

Celts Today:- Today the people who call themselves Celts or still strongly identify with there celtic history can be found in the following areas:- Brittany France, Cornwall, Galicia Spain, Galatia Turkey, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. All these areas have strong Celtic elements to there culture with some of them still speaking Celtic Languages whilst others though not speaking a Celtic language have strong Celtic cultural rootes. The modern Celts have a varied and rich history and have influenced many of the worlds current great nations with their pioneering spirit and love of adventure helping to found some of the worlds most progressive and greatest nations.
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Old October 19, 2001, 14:54   #2
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Map of Celtic civ around 400B.C.
This map shows the area that was more or less under Celtic control at 400B.C.
Attached Images:
File Type: jpg attachment.jpg (143.3 KB, 690 views)
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Old October 19, 2001, 14:59   #3
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Map of Celtic areas in 1400A.D.
Map of Celtic cultural areas in 1400A.D.
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Old October 19, 2001, 15:01   #4
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2nd try
Second try for 1400 A.D. map.
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Old October 19, 2001, 16:03   #5
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Forget Arthorius, it's too Latin sounding. Leave it Arthur!

What cities would be used? Major Archaeological sites? Existing cities in the areas that are still Celtic? I suppose the same list as CivII has would be easiest... If not, there is currently a discussion on the Spanish forum about cities in Iberia c. 500bc. Many Celtic cities have been identified there.
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Old October 19, 2001, 16:53   #6
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While I don't disagree that Arthur would make a great leader, as would Vortigern, Vercingettorix and Cunobelin, I think Firaxis might want to chose a woman to be PC.

Perfect place for Queen Boadicea of the Iceni.
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Old October 20, 2001, 03:58   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
While I don't disagree that Arthur would make a great leader, as would Vortigern, Vercingettorix and Cunobelin, I think Firaxis might want to chose a woman to be PC.
Ah, finally someone who understands Celts.

I would also suggest Vercingetorix or Cunobelin.
Especially Vercingetorix was a good warlord;
almost won Caesar's mighty legion in Alesia.

*the Celtic warlord Rasbelin is recalling the old good times*
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Old October 20, 2001, 19:50   #8
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Thank you. Vercingettorix is also my personal favorite. Of course, there are plenty of famous Celtic leaders:

Vercingettorix, Cunobelin, Boadicea, Vortigern, Vortimer, Aurelius Ambrosius (Romano-Briton), Uther Pendragon, Arthur, Llewellyn, Gruffyd, Rhys, and any number of Scots, though they weren't pure-bred Celts anymore, too much Saxon and Norman mingling.

Unfortunately, though the Celts were very influential and successful for a time, even the greatest leaders had their defeats.

Vercingettorix had to surrender to Caesar, Boadicea committed suicide, Vorterigern's Saxon mercenaries turned on him, Arthur was killed at the Battle of Camlann. (or was it Mt. Badon?)

As capital city I suggest either La Tene or Tintagel. Or Camelot for the die-hards.
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Old October 20, 2001, 23:40   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
While I don't disagree that Arthur would make a great leader, as would Vortigern, Vercingettorix and Cunobelin, I think Firaxis might want to chose a woman to be PC.

Perfect place for Queen Boadicea of the Iceni.
Boadicea was a total savage. I grant you she had reason to be pissed off at the Romans for raping her daughters and stealing her Kingdom but she went on a total rampage killing just about every Roman or Celt unlikely enough to run into her army. This is hardly my idea of a great leader. Still... she would make a nice great general figure.
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Old October 20, 2001, 23:43   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
As capital city I suggest either La Tene or Tintagel. Or Camelot for the die-hards.
I like the suggestion of La Tene for the Celtic capital. Can anyone come up with a possible city list for a Celtic civ?
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Old October 20, 2001, 23:51   #11
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Have any of you ever heard of the Celtic mummies of Xanjiang province in China? It's true. National geographic and several other science publications have reported blond & red haired Caucasian mummies being found in China's western desert. Judging by the clothes and artifacts that where buried with the mummies scientists have agreed that they where Celts who had traveled across the Asian steppes (just as the Mongols would do a thousand years later) and settled in eastern China.

Interesting isn't it?
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Old October 21, 2001, 05:20   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
Thank you. Vercingettorix is also my personal favorite. Of course, there are plenty of famous Celtic leaders:
But the was probably the best Celtic warlord (if we exclude me).
Quote:
As capital city I suggest either La Tene or Tintagel.
They have used La Tene in Civ II's Rome scenario,
but Tintagel is more common(?).
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Old October 21, 2001, 05:29   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin

Can anyone come up with a possible city list for a Celtic civ?
I'll make one today; but later .
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Old October 22, 2001, 14:28   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin



I'll make one today; but later .


Thanks Rasbelin. I think we should make La Tene the capitol and I will change the head of state from Arthur to Vercingettorix and we can make Arthur a great general or something.

That just leaves us with a few loose ends to tie up. Should we have the CSA be Religious or Militaristic? I am personally leaning towards Religious because it fits into what we know about the role of Druids in Celtic society and besides the Celts were never very successful at war. At least not as successful as the Romans and Greeks so Militaristic doesn't seem as good a fit as Religious. Lastly, what should set off the Celtic golden age? There are no Celtic wonders of the world (except maybe Smith's trading company but that's a long shot) so how would this work?
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Old October 22, 2001, 14:46   #15
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...have them make Stonehedge a wonder maybe?
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Old October 23, 2001, 11:14   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin

I think we should make La Tene the capitol and I will change the head of state from Arthur to Vercingettorix and we can make Arthur a great general or something.
I'll agree with you on all those points, BUT have you
forgot to make me a warlord (that's the real title for it in Civ III;
read my Finnish-English translation)? The city list will be
completed today, so I'll post it later.
Quote:
I am personally leaning towards Religious because it fits into what we know about the role of Druids in Celtic society and besides the Celts were never very successful at war.
I think religious is the best option. Ahh! I gotta love that druid idea.

Anyway, you're right they weren't any warmongers.
The Celts (or actually the Picts) had to move northwards, when
Ceasar pushed them back to Scotland, but the Wall of Hadrianus
is an evidence for that Rome feared for them. So they weren't
at least defenseless. Hopefully you get the point.
Quote:
Lastly, what should set off the Celtic golden age?
Er... good question. Kissing the Blarney Stone?
Quote:
There are no Celtic wonders of the world so how would this work?
Stonehenge
Woodhenge
Blarney Castle
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Last edited by Rasbelin; October 23, 2001 at 11:20.
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Old October 23, 2001, 13:54   #17
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1. So we know that the leader will be
Vercingetorix and the capital is La Tene
(located in the valley of river Rhein).
But how about the UU?
I suggest Celtic Warrior, +1 in defense.

2. Here's the beta version of the city list for
the mighty Celts. I haven't found any good
sources yet, so I have listed those that
has been used before.

Civ II's Rome scenario:

(La Tene)
Galatia
Braunsberg
Milan
Numantia

Civ II - Celts:

Cardiff
Kells
Carmarthen
Armagh
Caernarfon
(Tintagel)
Caerphilly
Cork
Rhymney
Iona
Rhondda
Illauntanig
Swansea
Durrow
Merthyr
Tara
Llangollen
Dinas Powys
Aberystwyth
Rhayader
Abergavenny
Dinas Emerys
Cardigan
Llanelli
Maesteg
Neath

And now, if you, dear friend, have other
suggestions or anything related to this;
please, share your knowledge.
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Old October 23, 2001, 17:12   #18
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The city list should really reflect Celtic spelling eg
Llundain (London)
Caer Baddon (Bath)
Rhydychen (Oxford)
Caergrawnt (Cambridge)
Caeredin (Edinbrugh)
Catraeth (Catterick)
Caerloyw (Gloucester)
Caerdydd (Cardiff)
Ty Ddewi (St Davids)
Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)
Aberteifi (Cardigan)
Abertawe (Swansea)
Bangor
Caernarfon
Castell Nedd (Neath)
Casnewydd (Newport)
Y Trallwng (Shrewsbury)

except that you end up with too many
Caer... (camp of...)
Aber.. (river mouth ..)
Llan.. (church of..)
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Old October 24, 2001, 12:37   #19
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Thanks, Myrddin!
As you might understand, I'm not a pro in
Gaelic languages (like Welsh and Irish).
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Old October 24, 2001, 14:46   #20
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I like the Celtic spelling for the city names. It gives the civ a more authentic feel instead of being simply an amalgomation of city names from countries and cultures. I will try to edit down the History section and update the civ profile with the latest information. Then we can all start critiquing the second rough draft.
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Old October 25, 2001, 18:51   #21
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1st revision of Celtic Civ
Name: Celts, Celtic
Time Period: 500BC-200AD
Leader: Vercingettorix (Celtic King who fought Julius Caeser)
Unique units: Woad Warrior; a swordsman that has a +1 to movement
CSAs: Commercial and Religious.
History: This section needs to be edited down to under 1000 words. Right now we have about two pages. As soon as I get a chance I'll reedite the text and submite it for review.
Capital: La Tene
City list: Tintagel, Llundain (London) , Caer Baddon (Bath) , Rhydychen (Oxford),
Caergrawnt (Cambridge), Caeredin (Edinbrugh), Catraeth (Catterick), Caerloyw (Gloucester), Caerdydd (Cardiff), Ty Ddewi (St Davids), Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen),
Aberteifi (Cardigan), Abertawe (Swansea), Bangor, Caernarfon, Castell Nedd (Neath), Casnewydd (Newport) ,Y Trallwng (Shrewsbury), Galatia, Numantia, Kells,
Armagh, Caernarfon, Caerphilly, Cork, Rhymney, Iona, Rhondda, Illauntanig, Durrow, Merthyr, Tara, Llangollen, Dinas Powys, Aberystwyth, Rhayader, Abergavenny, Dinas Emerys, Llanelli, Maesteg.
Great Generals/war leaders: Boadicea, Arthur, Cunobelin, Vortigern, Vortimer, Aurelius Ambrosius (Romano-Briton), Uther Pendragon, Llewellyn, Gruffyd, Rhys.

Can anyone think of anything that should be changed or added?
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Old October 26, 2001, 08:08   #22
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Re: 1st revision of Celtic Civ
Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin

Capital: La Tene
City list: Tintagel

Can anyone think of anything that should be changed or added?
Yes, Tintagel should be removed, because it's
an another name for La Tene.
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Old October 26, 2001, 12:47   #23
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Re: Re: 1st revision of Celtic Civ
Quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin


Yes, Tintagel should be removed, because it's
an another name for La Tene.
opps.... hehe I guess I made a little bubu. Thanks for catching that rasbelin. That sort of thing would have been very embarassing if it had made it to the final draft.
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Old October 27, 2001, 08:53   #24
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I understood La Tene was a major Celtic archeological site in Central Europe while Tintagel was a coastal fortress in Cornwall

Some more city names

Efrog (York)
Ynys Afallon (Glastonbury) - capital if led by Arthur
Manceinion (Manchester)
Dulyn (Dublin)
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Old October 29, 2001, 02:04   #25
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Celtic Alphabet
I just found out an interesting new tidebit about celtic history. It appears the Celts independently invented their own alaphabet which is known as the ogham alaphabet. Ogham was originally developed in Ireland but Scotland also developed it's own native offshot. Togeather the two alaphabets make a unique cultural contribution of the Celtic people.

Let's see if the Poles, Hungarians, or Spaniards (opps, Crown of Aragon) can claim they came up with their own alaphabet. :-)
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Old October 29, 2001, 02:34   #26
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Re: Celtic Alphabet
Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I just found out an interesting new tidebit about celtic history. It appears the Celts independently invented their own alaphabet which is known as the ogham alaphabet. Ogham was originally developed in Ireland but Scotland also developed it's own native offshot. Togeather the two alaphabets make a unique cultural contribution of the Celtic people.
Interesting, Oerdin. Thanks!
But I suppose we can't get it squeezed into the EP.
Even if it would bring more depth to the Celtic civ.
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Old October 29, 2001, 12:55   #27
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And "Baile Atha Cliath" (Dublin) ? It isn't in the city list!
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Old October 30, 2001, 16:41   #28
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We'll make sure we get Dublin added on to the city list during the next revision. Right now I'm just giving people a little time to comment about which changes should be made, what should be included in the history section, and what the special unit should look like. Things like that.
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Old November 1, 2001, 06:59   #29
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La Tene is a major archeological site in Switzerland, and not the same place as Tintagel.
Another city worth adding is Hallstatt, which is another very important archeological site in Austria.
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Old November 2, 2001, 00:01   #30
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Location: Lundenwic
Posts: 2,719
Celtic wonders and suchlike
While I was pondering the subject of Celtic Wonders, I thought of the salt trade and the tin trade. The Hallstatt site/culture stems in part from salt mining/trading, and the element 'Hall' in placenames is a synonym of Celtic origin for the Germanic Salz, and thus: Hallstatt, Reichenhall, Hallein and Hall, and in Gaul, placenames beginning with 'Al', such as Alesia. Salt was a new form of wealth (hence salary, from the Latin) an essential feature for any sedentary culture, an object of long distance trade across Western and Central Europe. It enabled the preservation of foodstuffs and could be fed to cattle to strengthen them. The tin trade was with the Mediterranean, through Phoenician middlemen, and most likely in Cornwall, from, or near St. Michael's Mount, in Mount's Bay off Marazion. The island of St. Michael's Mount is accessible at low tide via a causeway.

Failing the trading option, then what about Carn Brea or Maiden Castle, or for a later Celtic golden age trigger, a scriptorium such as produced the Book of Durrow, the Book of Kells, or the Lindisfarne Gospels?

Maiden Castle:

www.gallica.co.uk/celts/maiden.htm

Carn Brea:

www.cledha.freeserve.co.uk/cbpg/

Some possibly Celtic mummies:

www.channel4.com/nextstep/mystery_mummies


The Celts of Northern Italy also wrote in Lepontic script, in characters derived from the Etruscan alphabet, and there's also Iberian inscriptions from Contrebia in Spain, and Gallo-Greek from Vaison-la-Romaine. Not just the Irish with the gift of the blarney, it seems.

Should Dublin really be on a list of 'celtic' settlements by the way? The area was known as dubh/dubb linn to the Celtic population, but the town grew up from a Viking longphort. As an Irish settlement yes, but not as a Celtic one, IMHO.
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