Ming! Polls can't count as new threads!

[Rasputin]

come on guys he is just doing his job. the rules quite clearly state what is allowed and what isnt. i reaaly have no problem posting our stuff over in S&D.... i already announced our intention to go there in the S&D forum... we can just post the links on our normal thread here whenever there is apoll to be done....

[Ming]

Originally posted by drake
You've been marky marks yes man too long. For once use your own judgement.

Hmmmm... interesting debate theory... ask for a favor, and then follow it up with a supposed insult

Hey... I had no problem with a poll at first. It wasn't until another one was posted shortly there after that I acted. This is NOT the HOTW forum... It is the entire MP community forum.

We've been following the basic rule of one thread per game because originally, some people who thought their game was the only important one.... continued making more and more threads about it. With others games following the example... it got out of hand. So it was determinded that NO game was any more important...

So again... I must ask, why do you need multiple threads? You've been doing fine without in the past... but all of a sudden, now you need them

[drake]

I dont think our game is more important than any, but most games dont have a storyline with them either.

If you could explain why this "policy" makes sense, and why you are doing the community a service by closing threads that aren't hurting anyone, I will shut my mouth. But until now you have merely said, "thems the rules, tough cookies boys."

I'm not asking you to regurgitate marks idea, im asking you for your own.

Let me re-post something I said too:

<i>I personally could live with a single thread for the game. But whats the harm of a silly poll here and there? It's not hurting anyone and certainly isn't "clogging" anything up. </i>

I never said we <i>needed</i> multiple threads.

What I'm asking for is a rational explanation. Provide it and I will stop b1tching.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ming
We've been following the basic rule of one thread per game because originally, some people who thought their game was the only important one.... continued making more and more threads about it. With others games following the example... it got out of hand. So it was determinded that NO game was any more important...

Sigh... one more time then...

[drake]

I must not have been there when this was going on.

So basically penalized because of past actions?

Ok, this is obviously a losing cause ming. Just close this bad boy down and we'll decide what we're going to do.

Thanks.

[Ming]

Originally posted by drake
I must not have been there when this was going on.
So basically penalized because of past actions?

No... current actions on your games part. You were following the same pattern of the past... thinking that your game is so important that you could have tons of threads dedicated to a game. Again, I few threads were ok... I looked the other way...
But that wasn't enough

[drake]

thinking that your game is so important that you could have tons of threads dedicated to a game.

Thats in your imagination ming

We don't think its "so important", we're just having some fun and exploring different avenues. You're not shutting down some high and mighty group, you're shutting down some harmless fun. That is it.

How you want to look at it is your choice, but your view isn't correct.

[Rasputin]

finally !!! so are you going to decide from my list of options drake ??

[Ming]

Originally posted by drake
How you want to look at it is your choice, but your view isn't correct.

We are all welcome to our own opinions...
So you are trying new things... why can't you do it in your current thread...

Just having fun... again, why can't you do it in your current thread...

We need to discuss more stuff since it is a diplo game... again, why can't you do it in your current thread...

I have not heard ONE good reason why your game should be treated any differently than any other...

[drake]

I'm done ming.

You're about as fun as a piece of cardboard

Raz, we can decide later....we'll just keep our main thread here open and deal with the other crap somewhere else.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Ming


We need to discuss more stuff since it is a diplo game... again, why can't you do it in your current thread...

I have not heard ONE good reason why your game should be treated any differently than any other...

actually one reason for separate poll threads is for secret ballet effect of the poll, you dotn need to reveal who you vote for in the elction polls, if we do it manually it will take away the mystery of who is supporting which candidate ...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Rasputin
actually one reason for separate poll threads is for secret ballet effect of the poll, you dotn need to reveal who you vote for in the elction polls, if we do it manually it will take away the mystery of who is supporting which candidate ...

Thanks for at least providing a legitimate reason Ras...
But why are so many polls needed? As I've said, I have no problem with a poll... what I'm concerned about is the same problem we had in the past where one game clutters up the entire forum.

[drake]

I'm confused as to how two or three threads clutters up a page that has well what, 25-30 other threads on it.

[Rasputin]

i guess what has occured is that the game is getting down to the end times now and unless a few players team up the winner is almost cut and dry. (well a few feel that way)

and with all the problems we have had keeping 7 players involved i think we all were looking for a new idea.

Ozzy grabbed hold of the idea to get his leader voted in, he listed his "leaders" policies which basically meant playing style. he called for any civ MP forum poster to have a vote.

Deity then jumped on the fun idea too. And i think it is a good fun thing to do.

But basically as the poll was to decide how ozzy or deity were to paly the game , a secret ballot was encessary..


The reason we would rather keep the polls here in Civ 2 MP is that if anyone passing thorugh sees it they could hav efun and influence how the game would be played. yes not many ar einterested but we did get a few NON HOTW2 palyers voting so it wasnt jsut us.

[Ming]

Originally posted by drake
I'm confused as to how two or three threads clutters up a page that has well what, 25-30 other threads on it.

Two or three threads don't... 5 or 10 do What if (worst case scenario) if every leader wanted their own poll after every turn.

And then other games decided they wanted their own polls too...
Could I say no to them after letting you do it?

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by drake
I'm confused as to how two or three threads clutters up a page that has well what, 25-30 other threads on it.

I guess the big problem is what if we all decide to run a poll, that becomes 7 polls per week... !!! not a huge issue i know, but still sometuihng to think about.... I guess Ming could always delete (or close) the election polls after each week....

[ColdWizard]

IMHO, its not about how many threads HOTW2 makes but how that will affect the forum over all. sure a bunch of hotw threads won't clog up the forum that much, but what about other games? those people might think that since hotw gets a bunch of threads that their games need/deserve a bunch of threads too. that's what would clutter the forum and probably cause people to ***** about how cluttered the forum is. after all, who wants to see 3 threads about the duel between me and ming (1 for setting up times, 1 for stories/trashtalk , 1 poll about who will win )?

[OzzyKP]

Since i'm the one who started the whole poll idea I really need to explain myself.

Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs.

One more difference of diplogames is they last far longer than a regular game and generate far more interest among the players than a regular game. Also the roster rotates as people sub in and take over for players so the number of people who at some point have been involved in this one game that has been going since January or February i believe is very large. It isn't just the 7 people currently playing it is the 25 people who have touched this game and affected the story in some point along its long run. All those people care about this game but since they aren't currently playing can't really affect it anymore, which is where my elections came in.

My elections gave all these people who had an interest in diplogames and in this game in particular a chance to affect its outcome. This is certainly not a selfish desire for more threads by the 7 people in the game, this is making a game available to be "played" by everyone in apolyton. If Eyes decides to play Markus does everyone else care all that much? Probably not, but if everyone else could help control the flow of action, tell Markus which wonder to build, tell Eyes which direction to send his chariot then the apolyton community as a whole would be interested and invested in the game. That is what was happening with my game and the election.

Now, you can easily dismiss this and say i'm fooling myself but in the 4 days my first poll was open (not the full week they would be in the future) it generated <b>16 total votes</b>. Far more than the 7 people in the game. If we could assume the 4 votes per day was a constant then weekly these polls would get <B>28 votes</B>. That is a fairly sizable amount of people who have concern for this game and want to get involved with it, much more than ANY game.

Also the threads were not just standard threads they made use of the poll feature on the apolyton forums. This cannot be done in just one thread. As with any election the votes cast should be kept anonymous or people won't vote honestly or won't vote at all. It would change the whole effect of the election.

I understand the concern for having too many pointless threads but i don't see how the one thread per game rule is the best way of accomplishing that goal. Many threads are started with little or no point to them and receive little or no response from everyone else. These threads clog up the forum just as much as everything else but because they are sepperate they are allowed to exist. If i wanted to announce the creation of 8 different games of which no one is interested in playing they would be allowed according to this rule because they are different games.

Now with History Of The World 2 it is indeed just one game, but the amount of interest it generates, the longevity it has, the passion of all those involved, and yes believe it or not the passion of all those not involved makes it far more benificial to the apolyton community than just another thread.

Now the worry exists that all 7 of us may wish to do weekly polls like mine, in which case i agree that would be too much, but as far as i'm aware the only player in the game who is interested in holding weekly polls is me. Deity's poll seemed to be a one time thing and so far no one else has expressed any interest in taking this course of action. Also with my thread it is only useful for one week, they will not need to remain open for more than that. So each thread can be closed each week. So it is only one extra thread a week normally, which I don't think will affect anyone in a negitive fashion.

A final point is about my "threat to leave the game" if I can't run polls. This isn't some threat of a brat trying to get his way. The story aspect of a diplogame is as much if not more important than the actual game itself. You cannot simply think about diplogames as you would a regular pick-up deathmatch game. I was loosing interest in the game because as the end of the game approached it was starting to loose some of the story and become more about the game. This started to bore me and I found a way to truly revitalize my interest in the game by adding a new feature to diplogaming and to HOTW which was the election. Now an important distinction needs to be made, the polls i created were not just an extra thread about a single game <b>they were the game itself</b>. As important to my playing of the game as city improvements, settlers, wonders, science and everything else. The story crafted around the diplogame is the game itself, to deny the story denies the game, to deny my poll denies my game. If the Apolyton mods could somehow prevent Markus from building wonders in his game he would be quite upset and understandibly so. That is how integral these polls are to my game.

To summerize:
1. This game has great interest of players and non-players alike.
2. These polls make all of apolyton a part of the game, make them all players.
3. Diplogames are much different than a standard game.
4. You cannot take away the story without taking away the game.
5. There is no evidence this will be more than one extra thread with occasional and very limited exceptions.
6. One per game rule doesn't sufficiently or fairly accomplish goal of stopping the clogged forum.
7. The Poll feature in these forums is distinct from just an extra, random thread.

I hope everyone reads this carefully and understands where we are coming from on this issue. Thank you.

[drake]

truthfully cw? Wouldnt bother me one bit

I'd be happy to vote in your silly poll

This is a community and what ozzy did in his poll was open a thread up to the whole community. It was <i>supposed</i> to be fun

[ColdWizard]

y'all could ask MarkDanGQ for a exemption from the one game one thread rule for diplogames. and maybe start a poll in this forum first to see if anybody minds more dip game threads (if nobody minds there's an extra point to bring up with the admin)

btw i only voted in the first poll cause there was a tie

[Ming]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs.

Superior way to play... HUH? Many people find them boring because nothing really happens... again, a matter of opinion.
Diplo games in the past have survived with a single thread... so I don't buy the argument of different needs.

One more difference of diplogames is they last far longer than a regular game and generate far more interest among the players than a regular game.

I don't know about anybody else.. but EVERY game I play generates high levels of interest to me

My elections gave all these people who had an interest in diplogames and in this game in particular a chance to affect its outcome. This is certainly not a selfish desire for more threads by the 7 people in the game, this is making a game available to be "played" by everyone in apolyton. If Eyes decides to play Markus does everyone else care all that much?

I'll bet Eyes and Markus care... Just like you care about your game.

Now, you can easily dismiss this and say i'm fooling myself but in the 4 days my first poll was open (not the full week they would be in the future) it generated <b>16 total votes</b>. Far more than the 7 people in the game. If we could assume the 4 votes per day was a constant then weekly these polls would get <B>28 votes</B>. That is a fairly sizable amount of people who have concern for this game and want to get involved with it, much more than ANY game.

How do you even know if the people that voted actually cared...
Plus, your assumption on the projected total of votes is questionable... assuming a straight line vs the curve that is probably more likely.

Also the threads were not just standard threads they made use of the poll feature on the apolyton forums. This cannot be done in just one thread. As with any election the votes cast should be kept anonymous or people won't vote honestly or won't vote at all. It would change the whole effect of the election.

First, it is still a thread... and again, for all you know, people who didn't even follow the game might have voted... changing the effect that you actually desired

I understand the concern for having too many pointless threads but i don't see how the one thread per game rule is the best way of accomplishing that goal. Many threads are started with little or no point to them and receive little or no response from everyone else. These threads clog up the forum just as much as everything else but because they are sepperate they are allowed to exist.

While some threads may not be important to you, and you don't think they have any point... they had a point to somebody, or they wouldn't have been started. Every thread is important to the person that started it... as can be proved by the amount of whining that occurs every time a thread is closed or deleted
I have received complaints about the number of HOTW threads... so obviously, some people feel the same way about your game as you do the "pointless" threads.

Now with History Of The World 2 it is indeed just one game, but the amount of interest it generates, the longevity it has, the passion of all those involved, and yes believe it or not the passion of all those not involved makes it far more benificial to the apolyton community than just another thread.

Now you are just saying that your game is more important than any other game, and that it deserves special treatment. I continue to disagree. EVERY GAME is important...

Now the worry exists that all 7 of us may wish to do weekly polls like mine, in which case i agree that would be too much, but as far as i'm aware the only player in the game who is interested in holding weekly polls is me. Deity's poll seemed to be a one time thing and so far no one else has expressed any interest in taking this course of action. Also with my thread it is only useful for one week, they will not need to remain open for more than that. So each thread can be closed each week. So it is only one extra thread a week normally, which I don't think will affect anyone in a negitive fashion.

First... How do I know that other people in your game won't want to take advantage of it in the future... One already did. Plus, even if it was just you in YOUR game, the old threads would still be viewable for a period of time after you were through them... oh, that's right, I'm supposed to clean up after you...

Second... If you did it, other people playing in games have every right to ask for the same treatment... and that's the bigger issue.

A final point is about my "threat to leave the game" if I can't run polls. This isn't some threat of a brat trying to get his way. The story aspect of a diplogame is as much if not more important than the actual game itself. You cannot simply think about diplogames as you would a regular pick-up deathmatch game. I was loosing interest in the game because as the end of the game approached it was starting to loose some of the story and become more about the game. This started to bore me and I found a way to truly revitalize my interest in the game by adding a new feature to diplogaming and to HOTW which was the election. Now an important distinction needs to be made, the polls i created were not just an extra thread about a single game <b>they were the game itself</b>. As important to my playing of the game as city improvements, settlers, wonders, science and everything else. The story crafted around the diplogame is the game itself, to deny the story denies the game, to deny my poll denies my game. If the Apolyton mods could somehow prevent Markus from building wonders in his game he would be quite upset and understandibly so. That is how integral these polls are to my game.

It's too bad that you couldn't stay interested in the game. but I'm sorry... your analogy with us preventing Markus from building wonders is a joke... It's not even close to the same thing.
If you need somebody to make decisions for you to keep the game interesting... that's your problem. Somebody has raised the fact that you can't do the polls in your current thread because it takes away the mystery... actually, it might be more fun knowing who wants you to do what...

Using your logic, I could start posting a thread after every turn in any MP game, and claim that without it, I wouldn't play civ anymore...

I hope everyone reads this carefully and understands where we are coming from on this issue. Thank you.

I've responded to every point, so I hope everybody reads this as well so they know where I'm coming from... Thank You

[OzzyKP]

Well Ming you responded to every point, but you didn't address every point. It is obvious that you have no understanding whatsoever of Diplogames and despite my best efforts to patiently explain everything to you still you refuse to really understand.

I could get into a battle with you and respond point by point and this could go on forever. But no, i did my best to patiently explain myself and you just blew me off, so forget it. We'll move elsewhere. Thanks again for ****ing up my game Ming.

[drake]

Hey ming, I'll arm wrestle ya for it

"Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs."

Actually I think it makes you guys look more like geeks, but that's just an opinion too.

[drake]

We're nothing if not civ geeks around here eyes old pal.

But none probably bigger than you! Anyone who has dedicated as much time and effort to becoming "the best civ player in the world" has got to be quite the civ geek

Its so cute that you're now a full fledged poly member eyes. Backing up ming and all

So, you getting civ3 when it comes out or are you waiting till the mp gets added in?

[SITS]

I saw the post about HOTW2 in S+D forum which peaked my interest so I came looking here to see what it is all about.

Hmmm. If you wan't someone neutral (I don't play civ2 MP, just SMAC) to collate the polls then I'm willing to do that. It would preserve the secret aspect of the ballot. People could email their vote to me and after the deadline is met then I could post the results.

[Rasputin]

post your polls in S&D much easier than this endless debate ...

all you have to do then is post a link in our thread here to the poll in S&D... we maqy even get a wider audience....

[Ming]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Well Ming you responded to every point, but you didn't address every point.

Please point out what I might have missed so I can address them.

It is obvious that you have no understanding whatsoever of Diplogames and despite my best efforts to patiently explain everything to you still you refuse to really understand.

Hmmmm... since I don't agree with your point of view, I don't understand. I understand Diplo Games... and I understand the need of a thread to continue the role playing outside of the game.
But I guess we will disagree on whether multiple threads are required to enjoy a diplo game.

I could get into a battle with you and respond point by point and this could go on forever. But no, i did my best to patiently explain myself and you just blew me off, so forget it.

Blew you off... HUH... I tried to address every point you made. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I blew you off. If I was going to blow you off, I would have never responded to this thread, and closed it after your first post.
While you might say I'm not understanding your point of view...
I could say the same about you. All you are thinking about is keeping the game interesting for YOU... I have to look at the big picture.

We'll move elsewhere. Thanks again for ****ing up my game Ming.

I'm not the one ****ing up your game... I'm not the one that is saying that without polls It's not worth playing. People have been playing Diplo games since the early days of MP... and they didn't need polls to keep it interesting. I'm sorry, but that is your problem... Not mine.

[SunTzu]

I hardly think CFC is apolyton's *****. The sites like the Scenario League(dead) and the CSC are apolyton's ***** sites.
We're independent from poly. Don't be mad eyes, just because you were banned for life from CFC doesn't mean we still can't be friends

[rah]

Hmmmmm.
By my count.
Ozzie has
1. threatened to quit the game if he doesn't get his way
2. threatened to go over Ming's head.
3. accused Ming of blowing him off. (must get that image out of my head)
4. threatened to go to another site.

Ming has
Patiently responded (8 times) explaining the rule. And while I may not agree with all of his arguements, there is no way I could accuse him of blowing you off.

Summary,
Ozzie appears to be acting like the whining brat that he claims he's not.


Use the S&D forum and post links. (I'm impressed that RAS came up with that, and his point about confidentiality is the only good arguement that I've seen in this thread) What's the problem with that.

I am also personally tired of how important you think YOUR game is compared to all others. (I did not complain, I even voted in one of your silly polls hoping that would help make it go away. I was horrified that it just spurred on more polls)

Just because you're getting bored with YOUR game is no excuse to bore the rest of us. What seems like a fair solution has been offered. Do it and quit whining.

RAH
And please don't argue that I'm supporting Ming because of who I am, give me more credit than that.
I posted this because I think you are acting like a whiny brat, and I've always had too much respect for your thoughts and posts to see you lowered yourself to this.