Wny no Taj Mahal?

Boliao · October 23, 2001, 02:29

This is something I've always wondered since CIV1....
Why is the Taj Mahal not implemented as a wonder? I mean the forbidden city of China is in right? Any thoughts?

Yoleus · October 23, 2001, 02:52

Taj Mahal sounds good to me. But I think it was not in either because it is not well known (in the western world: what I mean is that even if most of the people know that something with that name actualy exists, few know what it actually is and why it was built) or because they had "plenty" of other candidates landmarks as CivIII wonders (western stuff).
I too would have liked a more "global" civ, but the choice is done and I am not disappointed (even if I think that they could have done better, I mean, they are Firaxis and Sid, right?).
There have been other threads on this topic, but they are late.
What we could do is to come up (after the game is released and played) with a "sensible" list of wonder changes (or increments, maybe: Taj Mahal as a Minor Wonder for happiness) to propose to Firaxis for a "world version" (what we will get in all the planet at the beginning will be the US (limited?) version).

Yoleus · October 23, 2001, 03:11

An other example of a too western (and sometimes too american) point of view:
in the small wonders you have the Pentagon and Wall street, not "defence headquarters" (or Kremlin, maybe... just give one to Russia, c'mon) or "national stock exchange", but you have Heroic Epic, not "Iliad" , "Odissey" or "Ramayana".
Now you may get my point.

Boliao · October 23, 2001, 03:12

Yah another wonder I think that should be included is the ...eh how should I put it...You know the famous colorful buildings in Moscow ..(the St basil cathedral outside the Kremlin at the end of Red Square)....don't you think that's another famous monument? Maybe we can add this plus TajMahal in using the editor.....

Yoleus · October 23, 2001, 03:12

And battlefield medicine, not Red Cross!!!!
Ok, three sequential replies, I am exaggerating, I know.
I beg everybody's pardon.

The Templar · October 23, 2001, 03:37

Again, this is why there is an editor.

Wexu · October 23, 2001, 06:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
Taj Mahal sounds good to me. But I think it was not in either because it is not well known (in the western world: what I mean is that even if most of the people know that something with that name actualy exists, few know what it actually is and why it was built)

Of course, you meant most of the Americans don't know what Taj Mahal is, right?

Grumbold · October 23, 2001, 07:11

There's a Taj Mahal in almost every English city, and they serve great food. That is what you mean, right?

Ribannah · October 23, 2001, 07:36

I've said it before, the wonders are awfully America-centered.
Here are just a few I would have liked: Stonehenge, Camelot, VOC (Dutch East Indies Company), Hermitage, Red Cross, Salomon's Court, Thousand and One Nights, Kruger National Park.

Jason Beaudoin · October 23, 2001, 08:20

I always thought that there should be a Tajmahal, and I wondered the same thing.

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 10:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Boliao

Why is the Taj Mahal not implemented as a wonder?

If I only had just your problems...

Well, we can't have every single wonder idea to
be included in Civ III. We just can't simply do that.

But, you're right, the Taj Mahal would be good
option as a wonder. The Forbidden City is probably
included, because it's perhaps more widely known.

I don't mean that Finns wouldn't know what Taj Mahal
is, but in a certain country on the other shore of
the Atlantic Ocean, it might be less known.

SITS · October 23, 2001, 10:12

Maybe a few people can get together to do a 'world-centric' mod that changes the name of wonders so it reflects a more balanced view of the world.

Stuie · October 23, 2001, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
And battlefield medicine, not Red Cross!!!!

I think Battlefield Medicine is a hell of a lot more generic - there's absolutely nothing US-centric about it. Plus are you forgetting that there is a Red Crescent organization that would be ignored in favor of your more christian version (you do know what the cross implies, right)?

Oh, and I had heard of the Taj Mahal long before I ever knew what the Forbidden City was all about, and I live on this "other shore of the Atlantic."

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah

Here are just a few I would have liked: Stonehenge, Camelot, VOC (Dutch East Indies Company), Hermitage, Red Cross, Salomon's Court, Thousand and One Nights, Kruger National Park.

I can agree with you on two points; Stonehenge and
East Indies Trading Company).
But Kruger and the Nights; nope!

My alternative wonders are (some of them might
overdrive each other, but that's not important)...

The upgraded list can be found more downwards on
this page.

Yoleus · October 23, 2001, 10:44

Grand Cathedral -> Hagia Sofia (in Istanbul: it was a cristian church, now it is a muslim mosque. 2 religions in a single wonder. Only Jerusalem does better. It is worldwide known and truly beautyful)
Battlefield Medicine -> Red Cross (Red Crescent was a name change for islamic countries, but I would think that this thing in particular is not a problem for muslims - I expect some feedback from our religious cousins)
Pentagon -> Kremlin (give the Russians a chance!)
Heroic epic -> Ramayana (or Iliad, you choose. But I prefer Ramayana for a less euro-centric cultural model. The Greeks are great but they have enough)
Wall Street -> East Indies Trading Company (this really did change economy)
Great University (what was the Newton) -> Cambridge (scientifical more that literary, sorry Oxford)

And for the US guys: why is it in the game something like the Hoover Dam (I mean, who knows it??), but not something more famous like the Union-Pacific Railway???
I know there is also the Russian transSiberian, but I would like the Kremlin more as a Russian wonder.
Moreover, I am definitely in favour of having the Statue of Liberty (a french gift, you know it??) replaced with the Constitution of the Union (far, far better, far more American with the capital "A")

Dida · October 23, 2001, 10:54

The list of wonder is kind of ridiculous. I don't see how statue of liberty could somehow be a "Great Wonder of the World". I live in NYC, and certainly love the statue, but it's no where close to be a wonder, letting alone being a GREAT wonder.
And Magelel's Voyage huh? I know this guy sailed around the world, but that's a Great Wonder? you can somehow produce his voyage in a city huh? That's totally silly. I think this type of wonder should be handled as in CTP2, where the first guy to sail around the world get's movement bonus for some number of turns.

SITS · October 23, 2001, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Dida
The list of wonder is kind of ridiculous. I don't see how statue of liberty could somehow be a "Great Wonder of the World". I live in NYC, and certainly love the statue, but it's no where close to be a wonder, letting alone being a GREAT wonder.
And Magelel's Voyage huh? I know this guy sailed around the world, but that's a Great Wonder? you can somehow produce his voyage in a city huh? That's totally silly. I think this type of wonder should be handled as in CTP2, where the first guy to sail around the world get's movement bonus for some number of turns.

The wonders are meant to be symbolic of a feat. Building Magellan's Voyage shows you've reached that far as a civilisation.

El hidalgo · October 23, 2001, 11:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
Taj Mahal sounds good to me. But I think it was not in either because it is not well known (in the western world: what I mean is that even if most of the people know that something with that name actualy exists, few know what it actually is and why it was built)

I agree, the Taj Mahal would make a good wonder. But I disagree that it's not in because it's not well known. I doubt the Oracle, the Hanging Gardens, or the Colossus are well known either (I bet not many people know what they are or why they were built), so that can't be the reason. Anyway Civ should be (is) educational, too; it's a game where you can learn some things you might not know.

I hope you can change the names of wonders in the game as you can cities. That way when I built JS Bach's Cathedral and I'm the Indians, I can rename it Taj Mahal (and put up with appearance of it in the city view).

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by SITS
Maybe a few people can get together to do a 'world-centric' mod that changes the name of wonders so it reflects a more balanced view of the world.

I might try to make that when I have received my copy.

El hidalgo · October 23, 2001, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
An other example of a too western (and sometimes too american) point of view:
in the small wonders you have the Pentagon and Wall street, not "defence headquarters" (or Kremlin, maybe... just give one to Russia, c'mon) or "national stock exchange", but you have Heroic Epic, not "Iliad" , "Odissey" or "Ramayana".
Now you may get my point.

True! That bugs me too. I'm going to change the names to generic forms in the editor. I still hope you can name wonders as you build them, though... While I'm at it I will change "Forbidden City" to "Provincial Capital." Every civ has (or can have) a forbidden city? I don't think so. Anyway I think provincial capital is a better name in light of the actual effects of the wonder. I guess I have more of a problem with minor wonders being so specific. Since everyone can build them they should be generic. And you should be able to name at least the great wonders as you build them.

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 11:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
Grand Cathedral -> Hagia Sofia (in Istanbul: it was a cristian church, now it is a muslim mosque. 2 religions in a single wonder.

Well, Hagia Sofia isn't a mosque any longer,
it has been a national museum for
over 80 years (=since the days of Kemal).

But anyway, I cannot agree that we can put
those two religions inside one wonder; Hagia Sofia.

Chronus · October 23, 2001, 12:20

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology??!!

You MUST be joking. A respectable school and all that . . . yes. But a wonder??

Okay, okay . . . I'm sorry. It just took me off guard a bit.

Boliao · October 23, 2001, 12:38

Hi Yoleus...glad there are people who think alike...but theres a couple of wonders I haven't heard of....
(quote)

Globe Theatre
Grand Bazaar of Constantinople
Kalimarmaro Stadium
International Space Station
Cinematograph Lumiére (pardon, but I'm not good in French spelling )
Potala Palace
Spinning Jenny
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Bologna

(unquote)

What is a spinning Jenny? I mean what if I spin my sister Annie...Then I'll get a spinning Annie...? I'll try it later

(just crak'in a joke..no offence)

Anyway I am sure that most wonders are western-centric but its ok I won't blame them. If I produce a game in Asia I would likewise make sure it is Asian Centric too....

But just to check does any of you here know about the ancient Khmer civilization?(Ancient Cambodia, Laos...) I studied that in History class...(You know Tomb raider the movie? Ankor Wat ) I mean we have a bunch of people debating about Poland as a great civ, but we see non debating about the Khmer people? Maybe there are not too many Asian people in this Forum as our perspective may be different.... ( I mean I do not know as much about American civil war history.....but I learn more about China and India and IndoCHinese history where I study)

But it think it is good to include an editor we can all make our own ethnic centric wonders without imposing on others. Single player what ! of course lah! (sorry a bit of Singlish )

no offence ....

Ribannah · October 23, 2001, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Yoleus
Moreover, I am definitely in favour of having the Statue of Liberty (a french gift, you know it??) replaced with the Constitution of the Union (far, far better, far more American with the capital "A")

Bah, there is nothing special about the American CotU.
I think it's much more to the point to replace the SoL with the Great Law of the Iroquois, which takes 2½ days to recite! That way they can have a wonder, too.

As for universities, how about the one of Al-Azhar?

orange · October 23, 2001, 13:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Bah, there is nothing special about the American CotU.
I think it's much more to the point to replace the SoL with the Great Law of the Iroquois, which takes 2½ days to recite! That way they can have a wonder, too.

Good lord. :sigh:

Both are ridiculous wonders.

Pseud0nym · October 23, 2001, 15:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
There's a Taj Mahal in almost every English city, and they serve great food. That is what you mean, right?

We have a Taj Mahal right here in my hometown in the US of A. Good stuff they serve there. I like the tandoori chicken.

Don K Hotay · October 23, 2001, 15:06

The Taj Mahal is an obcenity on India's soil. It was erected on the backs of thousands of hindus and muslims (artists, stoneworkers, and other craftsmen) by a vicious and uncivilized Mogul ruler. After its construction, the Mogul barbarian King had all workers involved in the momentous project maimed or killed, so that, get this, they would not be able to ever construct something its equal. And this was less than four hundred years ago! (relatively modern)

It is now part of India's history, and is perhaps the greatest example of exploitation by no good, filthy, uncivilized muslim towelheads.

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 15:14

Okay, I have upgraded my WoW list.
This is the new version of it:

Stonehenge
East Indies Trading Company
Acropolis of Athens
Kreml of Moscow
St. Peter's Cathedral
Globe Theatre
Grand Bazaar of Constantinople
Eiffel Tower
Pyramids of Giza
Babel Tower
Taj Mahal
Kalimarmaro Stadium
International Space Station
Knossos
Statue of Liberty
Colosseum of Rome
Amsterdam Stock Exchange
Cinematograph Lumiére
Potala Palace
Spinning Jenny
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Bologna
Abilene Project
British Museum
Great Library of Alexandria
Kon-Tiki Museum
Lomonosov University
Winter Palace
King's College
Silicon Valley
Bolshoi Theatre
Beijing State Opera
El Dorado
Wall of Hadrianus
West End
Broadway
Warsaw Pact
Maginot Line
St. Paul's Cathedral
Louvre
Hansa Trade Union
Epidauros

Rasbelin · October 23, 2001, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Boliao
Hi Yoleus...glad there are people who think alike...but theres a couple of wonders I haven't heard of....

Perhaps you're meaning Rasbelin?
It was I who invented those ideas and
posted them.

Quote:

Globe Theatre

The theatre in Southwark, London, where
Shake the Spirit's plays were played in the 18th
century.

Quote:

Grand Bazaar of Constantinople

The meeting point of Europe's and Asia's
trade. The goods from the Silk road were
traded here.

Quote:

Kalimarmaro Stadium

The original Olympic stadium in Athens.
The first modern olympics were played there
in 1986.

Quote:

International Space Station

Holy...! Haven't you heard of ISS?
The first international space station
on Earth's orbit. Mostly constructed
by USA and Russia.

Quote:

Cinematograph Lumiére

So the Lumiére brothers are unfamiliar to you?
Perhaps even their invention?

Those who intvented the moving image!
Cinematograph should say something, or at
least cinema.

Quote:

Potala Palace

The palace of the Dalai-Lama in Lhasa, Tibet.

Quote:

Spinning Jenny

Does the name Hargraves say anything to you?
British gentleman who invented the first
spinning machine in the late 18th century (1789?).
Named the machine "Spinning Jenny".

Quote:

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

MIT - the leading future researching lab in the IT industry.

Quote:

University of Bologna

The first European university.

Quote:

What is a spinning Jenny? I mean what if I spin my sister Annie...Then I'll get a spinning Annie...? I'll try it later

*laughing*

Quote:

(You know Tomb raider the movie? Ankor Wat )

Lara Croft and history? Are you serious?

Wittlich · October 23, 2001, 15:25

I can't see why the Taj Mahal couldn't be a minor wonder since it was built as a mausoleum by Shah Jahan for his favorite wife (built 1630-1648). So I'm thinking the Taj Mahal could be a minor wonder with religious/happiness benifits.