Wny no Taj Mahal?

[Dida]

I think we should honor the people died in 9-11 by making the World Trade Center towers Great Wonder of the World. Which give +10% gold in the host Civ.

[drake]

We don't even have all the original 7 wonders of the world in the game.....so why the fuss?

dida- WTC was a great wonder of the modern world, not only in construction, but of symbolism......

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
[Bologna] The first European university.

While not in Europe, the University of Al-Azhar is a good century older.
You have an interesting list though.

Here are a few more from my own list:

Abolishment of Slavery
Biosphere 2
Catacombs
Compulsory Education
Contraception
Freud's Interpretation of Dreams
Grand Canal
Inquisition
Kinderdike Mills
Magna Carta
Matthaus Passion
Nachtwacht
Odyssee
OPEC
Rainbow Warrior
Rubik's Cube
Scotland Yard
Shuri Castle
Sydney Opera House
The Ten Commandments
Topkapi Museum
Trans-Siberian Railroad
Utopia
Woodstock Festival
World Health Organization

[squid]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Okay, I have upgraded my WoW list.
This is the new version of it:


...Maginot Line...

LOL....What does it do? Causes you to waste all of your money on a huge defense project, only to get your ass kicked because they came from the other direction?

The Maginot Line may have been the worst defensive fortification of all time!

Some of these ideas are silly. It's like you are trying to be politicially correct on purpose to get your countries in. No one cares of the Amsterdam Stock Exchange. The Taj Mahal is a building, but it never served any purpose....

MIT is vastly overrated of course. They dwell on obfuscating theory and touting AI, when of course there are twenty universities in the nation of equal caliber in the AI sector. It's much like UC Berkley...live on the edge, talk like you are smoking crack, and you get a reputation. UMass, Berkley, NC State, John Hopkins, and Carnegie Mellon are all on par with MIT, if not above in many areas.

I could go on, but I don't feel like it.

As for the "make it a world program", please consider that
1) Firaxis is in Maryland
2) most customers are going to be in the US.
3) It would be a pain to make everyone happy with different versions.

Save your breath. You're going to get what you are going to get.

[Wittlich]

Don't "sugar-coat" it Squid, what are you really trying to say?

[CygnusZ]

Suggested Wonders:

Scientific:

Thomas Edison's Invention Workshop
Enrique Fermi's Nuclear Pile
Cure for Smallpox (The start of Modern Medicine)
The Mandlebrot Set

Expansionistic:

Manifest Destiny
Mercantalism
Mandate of Heaven (The Divine Right of kings maybe?)
Yagyu Jubei Shrine
Acropolis

Militaristic:

Kensai Dojo
Mars' School of War (Rome had the worlds best trained troops)
Liberty Tree
The Slave Trade

Economic:

Empire State Building
Tokyo Stock Exchange
Spinning Jenny
Weltham System
Conveyer Belt (or Ford's Automobile Factory)
Interchangable Parts
Cotton Gin
Teaching's of Confucious

Both concepts and actual buildings are included in this wonder list.

It is a glaring oversight that the Taj Mahal was not included. It is by far one of the greatest wonder's of the world (more so than something as weak as Women's Sufferage at least).

[jsw363]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Well, Hagia Sofia isn't a mosque any longer,
it has been a national museum for
over 80 years (=since the days of Kemal).
But anyway, I cannot agree that we can put
those two religions inside one wonder; Hagia Sofia.

I think that I would have to disagree. I went last summer and there were definitely people praying in the building, museum or not. You are also required to remove shoes and wear appropriate attire.

As for the Tower of Babel, this shoudln't be a wonder since it is MYTHICAL. It would be like having Cibola, Atlantic or Shangri-la as wonders. I don't think that buildings which aren't supported by archeological evidence should be included.

[EnochF]

Hmmm... I was planning to rename Battlefield Medicine to "Medical Corps" as soon as I got the game... but now I think I'll call it "Red Cross" instead. Good idea.

Taj Mahal would make a good wonder, I think.

As for the rest of you... I said it before, when I was editing the Wonders section of The List, and I'll say it again... YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL FREAKING NUTS!

[Pyrodrew]

Of course, you meant most of the Americans don't know what Taj Mahal is, right?

The Americans I know do. You need to stop watching JerrySpringer.

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by Dida
I think we should honor the people died in 9-11 by making the World Trade Center towers Great Wonder of the World. Which give +10% gold in the host Civ.

A) We've been saying for a while that this game is too US-centric.

B) I don't want to crush anybody's feelings, I know this is a hard time and all, and people have died, but just because something was attacked doesn't mean it's a wonder.

That said, I say that the World Trade centre buildings would be a GREAT replacement for the joke wonder, Statue of Liberty...or more properly for Wall Street (WTC was a great engineering feat. I've been hearing recently claims that they used to be the tallest freestanding structures in the world, which is funny, because every reliable statistic I've found on the net says that the CN tower is slightly taller and freestanding, but nonetheless...I mean, the CN tower doesn't DO anything).

[Boliao]

Originally posted by Rasbelin

Perhaps you're meaning Rasbelin?
It was I who invented those ideas and
posted them.

hehe Sorry for the mix up..... credit should go to u
Thanks for clarifying so much...I learn more today than in my history class.....

But seriously there was a indeed an ancient khmer civ in present day cambodia in the 9th century. The civ reached its peak glory in the 12th Century under Kings Suryavarman II and Jayavarman VII.

The Temple of Angkor Wat was dedicated to the Hindu God Vishnu by King Suryavarman II, but the civ fell to the Thais in the 12th century. Angkor Wat
U may think the city featured in tomb raider is ficticious but it is not (I agree the story about time travel is crap)

It is hidden from the western world until modern times as it is enshouded in thick jungle vegetation. Even the French colonists only heard rumors of these ancient temples.

I think they are have many parallels to the Maya and Inca Civs....Only that they weren't destryed by the Europeans.

[CygnusZ]

Originally posted by Your.Master

GREAT replacement for the joke wonder, Statue of Liberty...or more properly for Wall Street (WTC was a great engineering feat.

Eh, the WTC rings hollow for me. Statue of Liberty is a proud symbol of american heterogeneity whereas the WTC was just a shrine to greed. Then again, Wall Street is also a pretty terrible "wonder".

Perhaps I feel that the Statue of Liberty is more approriate because it is symbolic of an ideal which is what the concepts of wonder's illustrate. Pyramids, The Globe Theater, SETI even Wall Street (I agree with you, that's a pretty poor wonder) represent ideals as well as physical manifestations. WTC simply never (when it was standing) had any ideal about it.

[Yoleus]

Uh?
No people from US caring to support the Constitution of the Union as a wonder instead of SoL?
I am puzzled.
Ribannah: OPEC as a wonder? Inquisition and Woodstock on the same list? We do have to talk, maybe we are not speaking the same language
CygnusZ: the Mandelbrot set? it is a wonder as the Niagara falls are, truly a wonder but NOT MAN-made. Manifest Destiny and Mandate of Heaven? Aren't you just a little over-religious?
Weltham System: I am sorry, absolutely no idea of what it is...
And to some others: spinning Jenny as a wonder? As, say,
the Stone-Age Club (military wonder), the First Cartload (industrious wonder)...
On the other side Angkor Wat is a nice idea.
An now I will quote EnochF:
YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL FREAKING NUTS! (including myself, obviously)

[drake]

Eh, the WTC rings hollow for me. Statue of Liberty is a proud symbol of american heterogeneity whereas the WTC was just a shrine to greed. Then again, Wall Street is also a pretty terrible "wonder".

Perhaps I feel that the Statue of Liberty is more approriate because it is symbolic of an ideal which is what the concepts of wonder's illustrate. Pyramids, The Globe Theater, SETI even Wall Street (I agree with you, that's a pretty poor wonder) represent ideals as well as physical manifestations. WTC simply never (when it was standing) had any ideal about it.

Wall street epitomizes modern economics and the building of such a wonder could represent one of the highest levels of economic progress in the history of mankind. Its a very good choice for a wonder IMO. Some people who play the game to max out trade, gnp and production, will be particularly interested in well represented modern economic wonders.

The WTC may have (or may not have) been a testament to capitalism and greed, and whether you look at it in a positive or negative fashion, it had both incredible engineering and symoblic power. Much more than many of the ancient wonders.

Pyramids, by the way were also a testament to greed. Huge massive structures built for one reason and one reason only. To bury the wealthy "royalty". It symbolized affluence. Dominance.

Yes, it was an incredible marvel of construction and its longevity is truly un-paralelled, but please do not talk about its symbolism in any different light than a building such as the wtc.

[Yoleus]

Hold it.
Pyramids were built out of a way of thinking and believing.
The people which actually built them were NOT slaves, and the architect which devised them reached god-like status along with the pharao to the egyptian.
They are the main efort of a civilisation.
On the other end, WtC, Wall Street and the tall skyscrapers in NY are just a money machine, since the beginning. They were not created for pride or culture, but for money. Money. Money.
Wall Street is not even the first stock exchange of the planet, and for the biggest part of history the main stock exchange has been London's one. And before you had Bazaars, etc.
AFAIK, the skyscrapers were seen at the beginning as the NY respone to european cathedrals (US is not old enough to have old cathedrals) as "temples to wealth", but that's just American romance. In fact they were built after lack of space, tall in order to be ECONOMICALLY rewarding. Money. Money. ...

[Grumbold]

Statue of Liberty is at least an internationally recognisable status symbol in the same way as Big Ben, Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Buckingham Palace or the Taj Mahal. Unfortunately there are way too many of these to make them deserving of being wonders on that basis alone. The Constitution itself has a much lower relevance to anyone outside of the US even if it is something you feel justifiably proud of.

What we need is a sim-city like ability to import lots of 'feel good' architectureand place them uniquely in cities just ot make them look different. I had a moan before about how empty those city views look, with a few dozen houses surrounded by a massive wall that bears no relation to city size. Having the ability to populate the empty ground with historical features would be nice even if those buildings had no in-hame effect whatsoever.

[drake]

Hold it.
Pyramids were built out of a way of thinking and believing.
The people which actually built them were NOT slaves, and the architect which devised them reached god-like status along with the pharao to the egyptian.
They are the main efort of a civilisation.

Thinking and believing what? In some ridiculous god of the afterlife? The thousands of people that built it, built it for the good of the pharoah, not the country. The Pyramid had no function, other than to bury the royal families and to be looked at it in awe.

How do you know they werent built by slaves? No one knows for sure. In any case, it was built by workers, who worked for a living. They didn't do it because of some great ideal, they did it because it was a way to support themselves.

For the ancient world, the pyramids were an absolutely incredible structure. But what did it symbolize? A big huge gravestone for some mummies. Symobolically it was a show of the pharoahs power, not the civilization as a whole.

On the other end, WtC, Wall Street and the tall skyscrapers in NY are just a money machine, since the beginning. They were not created for pride or culture, but for money. Money. Money.

Money which raises standards of living. Money which raises literacy. Money which helps cure disease. Money which enables people access to technology to better themselves and educate themselves.

It is about culture. Whether you like the culture it creates I don't know. But please, please do not discount the cultural value of something like the NYSE.

I take pride in the fact that I live in a country in which I can make a decent living. Wanting the best for ones family is a universally recognized thing. Working to get what one wants is also a universally recognized concept.

Wall Street is not even the first stock exchange of the planet, and for the biggest part of history the main stock exchange has been London's one. And before you had Bazaars, etc.

Being the first doesnt mean being the best does it? Never before in the history of the world has the world economy been so dependent on one entity. Whether you want see it that way though.....

AFAIK, the skyscrapers were seen at the beginning as the NY respone to european cathedrals (US is not old enough to have old cathedrals) as "temples to wealth", but that's just American romance. In fact they were built after lack of space, tall in order to be ECONOMICALLY rewarding. Money. Money. ...

I don't get what youre saying here yol. You're saying that skyscrapers in general are about money and greed? Well I hate to have to point it out, but America isnt the only place to have skyscrapers

Oh, and we have plenty of cathedrals over here as well. Just not the really old ones. Was there a point?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by squid

LOL....What does it do?

I think it could be as a city defence wonder.

The Maginot Line may have been the worst defensive fortification of all time!

The Maginot line wasn't technically the worst
defense construction ever (it was a fortress
armed from top to toe), but it should have covered
the whole eastern border of France.

But I can see a certain amount of American
pessimism in your message.

[zoom200]

Also, No japanese wonders?

Tokyo tower, MITI, Seikan Tunnel, even bullet trains????

why should MIT be a wonder, wouldm't it be covered uner the city improvement "Universitiy".

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by jsw363

I went last summer and there were definitely people praying in the building, museum or not. You are also required to remove shoes and wear appropriate attire.

Your obviously talking of the Sultan Ahmet mosque,
just few hundred meters away from Hagia Sofia.
BTW, I know what I'm talking of, because I have
been in Istanbul.

As for the Tower of Babel, this shoudln't be a wonder since it is MYTHICAL.

Well, there has been argue on that matter,
but why couldn't the game include some
legendary mythical buildings (that might have
even excisted)?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by zoom200

why should MIT be a wonder, wouldm't it be covered uner the city improvement "Universitiy".

Then you could ask: Why to have Wall Street included
in the game, when there's the Stock Exhange?
Or: The Great Cathedral is useless when there's
the normal Cathedral, isn't that true?

Anyway, the MIT was just a suggestion.
We can always pick an another one;
King's College or University of Bologna.

[drake]

Well, there has been argue on that matter,
but why couldn't the game include some
legendary mythical buildings (that might have
even excisted)?

Like the Oracle?

Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.

So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?

And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by drake

Like the Oracle?

The Oracle wonder is a bit complicated.
No source has stated what oracle is
in question. Most likely it's the oracle of Delfi
in the Parnassos mountains (mainland Greece).
The oracle of Delfi is a true; the remains of the
temple still excist and they are a tourist attraction,
that has attracted even me.

Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.

The names are pure imagination, but the
Michelangelo's Chapel is the Sixteener Chapel in Rome and
the Shake's theatre is the Globe Theatre
(see my alt WoW list).

So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?

I agree with you. BTW, there Cure for Cancer WoW
in Civ II is also surreal, because until this day,
no cure for cancer has been found. But there's remark
on that in the WoW description (see Civilopedia).

And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.

But the other of the Seven Great Wonders of the World
are true (expect the Colossus, because there's no evidence).

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Rasbelin The Maginot line wasn't technically the worst
defense construction ever (it was a fortress
armed from top to toe), but it should have covered
the whole eastern border of France.

No, the Maginot line was actually a terrible idea and a strategic blunder. It was completely inadequate at fighting a mobile war, and was built to win WW1 when WW2 happened. It was ineffective and expensive. A fortress, no matter how big, isn't much more than a lump of concrete against tanks and troops that can simply go around it or pound it from the air. The Maginot line did more harm than good, as the Germans retreating from France turned the guns around and used them to harass the liberating armies.

But I can see a certain amount of American
pessimism in your message.

France lost, largely because of the Maginot line. There's no pessimism here, simply facts. Don't be silly and bigoted.

[drake]

The Oracle wonder is a bit complicated.
No source has stated what oracle is
in question. Most likely it's the oracle of Delfi
in the Parnassos mountains (mainland Greece).
The oracle of Delfi is a true; the remains of the
temple still excist and they are a tourist attraction,
that has attracted even me.

Well no doubt it was the oracle of delphi....but the structure alone definetly does not constitute wonder status. It was little more than an ancient fortune telling service which appealed to the people of the med. region.

Its "power" is what is mythical and fun to think about. I like having wonders that conjur up imagination and speculation, even if not entirely historically accurate.

Besides the cheesy sound effects and graphics, this site has some neat background: http://www.oracleofdelphi.com/oraclestory.htm

The names are pure imagination, but the
Michelangelo's Chapel is the Sixteener Chapel in Rome and
the Shake's theatre is the Globe Theatre
(see my alt WoW list).

I wish they had used these references, if you're certain thats what they represent. (Isn't it the Sistine Chapel you're referring to?)

[Rasbelin]

My opinion is that the Babel Tower would
be justified as a wonder in Civ III.
Don't forget that it's as the background image in
the mainscreen.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by drake

I wish they had used these references, if you're certain thats what they represent. (Isn't it the Sistine Chapel you're referring to?)

Im 100% sure on that. And you're right, it's
Sistine Chapel and not "Sixteener Chapel".
The Globe Theatre is the theatre, for which
William S. wrote his plays. It was reconstructed
in 1997 in Southwark, London, where it had been
until the late 18th century (damn Puritans, always
messing around ). Even I have been "forced"
read about it at school (even if I live in Finland).

[drake]

So do we have any real world examples of what bachs cathedral represents? How about Marco Polos embassy?

Any loose relations you might know of?

[HisMajestyBOB]

Now all the wonders are US-Euro centric

Why not Ibn-Something, the Arab who explored Eurasia instead of Marco Polo?
Angkor Wat? Other RotW wonders?

[CygnusZ]

Originally posted by drake
So do we have any real world examples of what bachs cathedral represents? How about Marco Polos embassy?

Any loose relations you might know of?

Yeah, I can answer for Bach's Cathedral.

Bach was employed at Neue Kirche Church from 1703-1707. He composed a new piece every single week by mandate and in addition wrote his own works. The clergy of the area though suspected that Bach did not make music purely for the love of god. Eventually he left to work in Weimar in 1708-1717, where he composed his most famous pieces including the Goldberg Variations.

Now, Looking at some picture's I'd be tempted to say that Civilization has a little historical error. As far as I can tell Neue Kirche is not a cathedral. If anybody has a way to determine this I'm all ears.