VERY interesting bits from a Korean review...

[dennis580]

Yin I just got thur giving a very reasonable explanation for why this occured. Nothing smells fishy to me.

[yin26]

You mean for "how it could have occured." If that AI is reasonable and understanble in that way, then we have nothing to worry about.

Again: Waiting for more reviews to be sure.

[TVA22]

I can certainly imagine a Korean person's antagonism to the Japanese, but I too think the inclusion of politics in this article is unprofessional, and his/her points are unfounded anyway. The reviewer mentions being "disappointed to see Japan as an ancient civilization." So this reviewer should also be disappointed to see the Germans, English, and French among others in the game.

The Japanese aggressive policies in the early and mid portions of the last century were often brutal, and never beneficial for the conquered people's but Japan-bashers need to look at the bigger picture, and realize why Japan became an outwardly aggressive, imperialistic power--The Japanese knew that they had to beat the Europeans at their own game in the Far East, or they'd become the next European colony. From there, things just got out of the government's hands, which is regrettable, for the victims, and for the Japanese today, who, as a younger generation still suffer hatred worldwide for the things the older generations did.

Also, FYI, any people with the Epicanthial fold in their eyes are derived from the mongols. The Epicanthial fold is a genetic adaptation to protect the eye against the sun's glare. Asians developed this adaptation when they were still living in prehistoric Siberia. Another Mongolian adaptation is shorter limbs in proportion to the body, when compared with westerners or africans, this means they're generally shorter, smaller people. That conserved body heat. Asians migrated south, into the Steppes of northern asia, into the north china plain, etc, etc. The Japanese themselves are descended partially from the mongolian race, partly from polynesians, and partly from the ainu--indiginous, Almost European looking people that lived on the Japanese islands far before the 'asians' arrived. The actual territory of Japan had a major civilization called the Jomon, which dated from the Mesolithic stone age or about 3000 bc.

[yin26]

So this reviewer should also be disappointed to see the Germans, English, and French among others in the game.

Yes, that is true, and I thought the same thing while reading. You can just sense, though, his frustration as a Korean when Japan is directly or indirectly shown as a glorious empire.

Again: Page 2 of my Korea thread should make that understandable enough.

However, if he is going to raise these issues, he should handle them more thoroughly in the future so he doesn't looked quite so biased.

[yin26]

By the way, this bring up an important question: Is solid diplomacy a make-it or break-it item for you guys? For me, it's at the very heart of the game ... which might work against me since the Civs are not trying, really, to mimic diplomacy the way EU does.

[marcuspeddle]

Originally posted by yin26
Anatolia is the one who found the article, by the way. I hope he doesn't hate me now for posting it this way...but he said he wasn't going to translate it (it might be a bit outdated), so what was a Civ addict to do?!

No problem. I didn't bother translating and posting it because it didn't seem like anyone was interested. The three pages of posts in this thread proves me wrong. After the game comes out I'll post a new Korean review to see if I can regain my lost glory

[yin26]

LOL! Well, I rather hate translating (unless I'm being paid/forced to do it), so I will by all means step aside and let you take over. Besides, I'm not 100% sure of a few turns of expression that guy used anyway (the factual stuff was fine...but the falling down in betrayal I'm not quite sure I got that one right).

But I think you can see how much we were starving for AI info!

[Dry]

Originally posted by SerapisIV


Well, Pakistan and the Taliban were good friends until a month ago, so I don't see any lack of realism with such a feature. Throw in Germany and Russia in WWII and there's another example of real-world backstabing.

Germany and Russia, good friends?
May be that for some time they had a common interest (Poland), but friends, surely not.
Jews, capitalists and commies were on Hitler's agenda (with many others, but I haven't space enough here to put them all).

BTW: I do not think there was an Alliance treaty between Germany and Russia. A non-aggression pact yes, alliance, no.

PS: I run the netscape spell-checker on this post, for Taliban his first proposal is 'Italian'

[Mahdimael]

If the AI can come somewhat near to the AI in the original MOO, I'll be happy. I'll never forget my alliance with the Alkari that stayed solid the entire game...I even was supported throughout wars by them and their votes eventually won that game for me.

I suspect that if you do not engage in much trade/diplomacy with other empires, they will start to view you as an enemy, which is fine in my book. But trading certain commodities should certainly increase your diplomatic standings with others.

We shall see however.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by TVA22
The Japanese aggressive policies in the early and mid portions of the last century were often brutal, and never beneficial for the conquered people's but Japan-bashers need to look at the bigger picture, and realize why Japan became an outwardly aggressive, imperialistic power--The Japanese knew that they had to beat the Europeans at their own game in the Far East, or they'd become the next European colony.

What? What kind of logic is that? The truth is, after the Meiji Restoration, the Japanese considered themselves to be Europeans instead of Asians, and thus superior to their neighbours. But even before the Meiji Restoration they had been invading and harrassing their neighbouring countries.

Originally posted by TVA22
From there, things just got out of the government's hands, which is regrettable, for the victims, and for the Japanese today, who, as a younger generation still suffer hatred worldwide for the things the older generations did.

Oh really? Wasn't it that government that launched the invasion of Korea and China? Wasn't it Hirohito that authorised the ambitious plan for the so called "Great East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere?" Decades after the war the Japanese government still refuses to admit its own wrongdoings by aplogising to Japan's victims.

And what's this about a worldwide hatred?

Originally posted by TVA22
Also, FYI, any people with the Epicanthial fold in their eyes are derived from the mongols.

Where did you get that from?

Originally posted by TVA22
The Epicanthial fold is a genetic adaptation to protect the eye against the sun's glare. Asians developed this adaptation when they were still living in prehistoric Siberia.

That would seem unlikely if we accept the current hypothesis of human movement (starting from Africa and spread outwards).

Originally posted by TVA22
Another Mongolian adaptation is shorter limbs in proportion to the body, when compared with westerners or africans, this means they're generally shorter, smaller people. That conserved body heat.

Then why are Africans generally smaller than Asians who are smaller than Europeans?

Originally posted by TVA22
Asians migrated south, into the Steppes of northern asia, into the north china plain, etc, etc.

That's against archeological evidence available now.

Originally posted by TVA22
The Japanese themselves are descended partially from the mongolian race, partly from polynesians, and partly from the ainu--indiginous, Almost European looking people that lived on the Japanese islands far before the 'asians' arrived.

AFAIK there is no indiginous Japanese. There were two waves of migrations from the outside, the earlier one was the Ainus and the second one was as noted in a previous message. DNA analysis shows that there is no one homogenous Japanese people but a mixture of the two waves of migrants plus 25% each of Chinese and Koreans.

[yin26]

Urban Ranger:

I suspect those are the kinds of things the author wished people knew.

[cassembler]

The only thing I care about from Civ2 AI:

The AI doesn't get pissed at me just for being bigger/ better. It has to want a resource or tech that it can't get from me via diplomacy, or I have to start some **** with it.

That and maybe "stupid unit tricks..."

and perhaps better defensive decissions.

[TVA22]

First of all, I get "my information" from my personal and professional study, independent and organized of the Far East since I was about 8 years old, and I took "Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles," and wanted to know what a real ninja was.

You say I have incorrect logic because, yet you say the Japanese "thought they were Europeans?" Um, no. Not at all. Japanese have always been warlike, concerning themselves, except for one attempted invasion of Korea which failed miserably. (Pre-WW2 of course). I've had numerous classes, including 2 in high school, and 1 in college in which the primary source, or you could say motive behind the Aggressive reforms of the Meiji restoration which were of course centered on Westernizing the nation (Japan) were a direct response to the Japanese seeing the Europeans as a threat and seeing a need to protect themselves. People don't just "think" they're another race, and then go from feudal society to late industrial society in 50 years on a whim. I was expressing a theory which I have cultivated on my own, because I know the facts, and my theory is reinforced by PhDs, who know even more than I. If you merely consider Hegel, you'd realized history is not a timeline, a set of isolated events, but in fact a series in which everything relates to everything else. History is cause and effect. My (and other's) theory, in a nutshell is that Japan radically changed foreign policy, governmental types, and in fact to some degree culture as a reaction to the fear of becoming the next colony of Europeans. Their imperialism was the need to both secure a buffer zone (think USSR at end of WW2, and Russia at end of Napoleonic wars) and resources with which to keep Europeans at bay.

W. Scott Morton, who has degrees in Japanese and Chinese from Cambridge and Edinburgh universities and taught Japanese and Chinese history at Seton Hall University writes in his book: Japan, it's history and it's culture, "By taking it's place alongside the Western powers Japan felt it had successfully claimed recognitin as a modern, industrialized nation." I think that's what you mean, but the Japanese never considered themselves to "be Europeans" rather, they wanted recognition, and security for their home.

As far as whether or not the Government was in complete control of the military or not, I see you're a fan of Herbert P. Bix, whose thesis in "Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan" is that Hirohito was a meniacle killer along the lines of Hitler, intent on world domination and killing all people but the Japanese. I reject this thesis, I think he was no different than any other young man at the head of a nation, but in his book, Bix does cite that on numerous occasions, such as the initial attack on the Mukden Barracks of Sept 18, 1931, the army acted on it's own, and the Emperor found out the next day, after the country was already involved. Particularly toward the end of the Pacific war, the Military was more and more out of the control of Tokyo, this is simply mere logic.

Yes, Hirohito envisioned a Great East Asian Sphere of influence, with Japan at it's head. For the reasoning behind that, see my Western Imperialism argument above.

World-wide Hatred? I read travel books all the time, because I love to travel, and I'm always planning a new trip. Frommer's guides in Asia usually tell that if you're Japanese, and you're in indonisia, the Philippines Vietnam, and parts of Thailand, you might want to watch out for people trying to cheat you. My girlfriend is Filipino, she's been all over SE Asia, and tells me Japanese are treated as well there as Americans are in the bad parts of Paris. Which suggests to me that Frommer's books are correct. And it's because these areas were quickly subjugated by the Japanese in WW2, that the people are still bitter, which is, in my opinion, understandable. I'm not making excuses for the Japanese, just explaining. As far as European and American Hatred of the Japanese, I speak from firsthand experience seeing all the Racism against "damn backstabbing Japs" running rampant, even to this day.

As far as Genetics, I go again to W. Scott Morton: "The origins of the Japanese people are mixed and obscure. One thing is certain: there were other races of a non-Japanese character living on Japan before the arrival of the Japanese themselves. One of these races, the Ainu, has survived to the present day." Thats on the first paragraph of chapter 2. FYI.

The next paragraph begins "The Japanese, on the other hand, are of the Mongolian race, similar in stature, with the typical mongolian features of the fold in the eyelid, a yellow tinge in pigmentatio, black hair, faces on the whole flatter than the caucasian type, high cheekbones, and limbs proportionately shorter in relation to the trunk. This last feature helps to conserve body heat which would otherwise be dissipated by long extremities. This, along with they eyefold which may offer protection against snow glare, is thought by some to point to a reservoir of mongolian peoples living in prehistoric times in the Siberian North."

Then why are Africans generally smaller than Asians who are smaller than Europeans? You ask? Well, Why do africans have darker skin? They're closer to the eqator, it was a genetic adaptation to deal with the climate, and the geography. Africans are taller, because it keeps them cooler in the hot climate, the body heat is dissipated. Europeans on the other hand, look like they do because of the mountainous geography of Europe, when compared with the flat ice and snow fields of Siberia.

As for the rest of your arguments about the development of mankind, such as: Originally posted by TVA22
Asians migrated south, into the Steppes of northern asia, into the north china plain, etc, etc.
"That's against archeological evidence available now. "
I'm not talking about the first humans to move from Africa to Asia, as in Homo Erectus, I'm talking about human development in the last 10,000 years, which is called the Holocene epoc, when people finally began to settle down, these genetic adaptaions would have been well into place then, as the Asians had just come out of a glacial period, the tail end of the late Cenozoic Ice Age.

So, as you can see, some of my statements are opinionated, but also substantiated by others. I don't mean to blast you, but I'm "getting my information" from books written by college professors, and a lifetime of a personal passion for that part of the world. Sorry if I seem like an ass, but you told me I'm not right, or at least made it sound like I was making stuff up. I just wanted to show I'm not. If you don't believe me, try starting your own research with the books already cited above, I believe I gave you both authors as well. By the way: Japan: its history and culture--I'm using the 3rd edition, copyright 1994, and "Hirohito and the making of modern japan"--copyright 2000.

Have a nice day.

[Executor]

Originally posted by Earthling7
Interesting stuff, but I am concerned about the France/Persia affair. I hope this was a deliberate betrayal, not just a stupid AI stupidity.

I'm thinking the latter, but if the AI did plan it out, I applaud Firaxis for including it in the game.

Frankly, I really don't care if France stabs me in the back intentionally or not. Their signing a peace treaty with an enemy of mine is a pretense for war, and a few ICBMs will be en route to Paris the next turn.

[ancient]

it seems awefully familliar, thats the same thing i would do to other civs in civ2, when i didnt feel like fighting..

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Then why are Africans generally smaller than Asians who are smaller than Europeans?

Where did you get this? Africans smaller than Asians? Maybe the pygmies, but not in general. Africans are larger than Asians in stature.

Besides, the overarching reasons why Africans and, in fact, many third-world peoples are "smaller" than Europeans is due to rampant starvation and malnutrition in their spheres. In Asia, it is a genetic issue.

As for the "glare" issue, remember than in a frozen north, the glare of the sun is much greater than in a desert or on the plains of Kenya.

And what "archeological evidence" are you referring to in terms of migration? I believe TVA22's statement was entirely correct, based on the history I have read.

[Akillias]

He never says Korea should come before Japan...but should Japan come before Korea? WTF are u talking about

[yin26]

Well, all the words are there in grammatical order. WTF you thinking?

[TVA22]

All I was saying: This entire forum has been saying that the Korean people's origins are virtually untraceable, while seeming to suggest that the Japanese people's origins are clear as crystal. I was saying that the exact origins of the Japanese people are not known, and potentially come from many different sources. Among other things.

My last post was really just citing evidence for Urban Ranger who had flamed me and said everything I said in the post before that was incorrect or unsubstaintiated. Sorry to break up other discussions, but, well, you know what it's like when you get attacked, and yet you know you were right all along--you want to set your name clean.

[Leonidas]

quote:

Once, this thing happened: About the middle of the game, suddenly France requested an alliance. It was no simple alliance as I was now expected to attack Persia. At the time, Persia and I had no relations whatsoever. As the battle then looked bad for Persia, I happily agreed. Soon I entered the battle against Persia. But Persia wasn't attacking France at all...only me! Now I was getting nervous when suddenly France cut its alliance with me and established peace with Persia, hitting me like a slap in the head. If that's not cause to wonder at the AI, it was a moment when my body nearly fell over in betrayal.


I don't mind backstabbing civs in a game - that's realistic. But if all the civs gang up on me as I get stronger no matter what I do, then this is simply a brain-dead way of ratcheting up the difficulty without any improvement in AI ability to diplomatically deal with me.

I saw this type of action in Civ2 all the time - after a while it became a snooze-fest - boring. . .

By Civ3, we should have a very sophisticated AI - yet no official word on it yet. I'm hoping for the best.

[Akillias]

Ok Maybe he never sais korean should come before japan but he meant korean should come before japan