Civ 3 Strategy guide is out! - Page 5

Andrew1999 · October 27, 2001, 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Leonidas
Andrew, how are holding up? You don't really require sleep, do you?

Three more questions:

1) How does blocade work?

2) How do borders function?

3) What are the eras, and what do you require to advance to each one?

Thanks

Hey, it's only 10:30. I imagine I'll get up tomorrow and have all these questions from people in Australia...

1. To blockade a city, you have to completely block off all routes to other Harbors they want to conect with. The best way to do this will often be to occupy every water tile next to the city with a unit. Although in a large civilization it would be pretty hard to cut off every single coastal city.

2. I think that's been pretty well covered elsewhere--basically they define the area where you can access resources and where you can exclude other civ's units.

3. The eras are Ancient, Medieval, Industrial and Modern. To advance you have to get most of the tech in the era. In the Ancient era you can skip Horseback Riding, Literature, Monarchy, and Republic. In the Medieval era you can skip Chivalry, Democracy, Economics, Free Artistry, Military Tradition, Music Theory, Navigation and Printing Press. In the Industrial Age you can skip Advanced Flight, Amphibious War, Communism, Espionage, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

Elucidus · October 27, 2001, 23:56

Got an email today (actually got it yesterday at 2:50, just hadn't checked it until now), they shipped the guide to me. So it should be here pretty quick. Sweet. Just thought anyone else who might have ordered it might want to know they are at least working on it.

Xmudder · October 28, 2001, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew1999
Water improvement is done like in Civ 2: Cities with harbors produce +1 food per water square and cities with offshore platforms produce +1 shield per ocean square.

Coast: 1/0/2
Desert: 0/1/0
Floodplain: 3/0/0
Forest: 1/2/0, 2 MP, +25% defense
Grassland: 2/0/0 or 2/1/0
Hills: 1/1/0, 2 MP, +50% defense
Jungle: 1/0/0, 3 MP, +25% defense
Mountains: 0/1/0, 3 MP, +100% defense
Ocean: 1/0/0
Plains 1/1/0
Sea: 1/0/1
Tundra: 1/0/0

Desert, Floodplain, Grassland and Plains can be irrigated for +1 food.
Desert, Grassland, Plains and Tundra can be mined for +1 shield.
Hills and Mountains can be mined for +2 shields.
All land types can have roads for +1 commerce (and movement bonus.)

No +1 commerce for flood plain? Flood Plains can't be mined, and never have shields? That contradicts a number of screenshots we've seen.

How much does it cost to build a Scout? 20? I know it takes 1 gold to maintain it.

UKScud · October 28, 2001, 01:57

Quote:

In the Industrial Age you can skip Advanced Flight, Amphibious War, Communism, Espionage, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

you can get to the modern age without having sanitation...

...blurgh!

Thanks for all the info so far. It's given us all lots to talk about.

How is your own game going? Have you driven the French into the sea and taken their saltpeter yet?

Can ya show us another screenshot, please?

Jaybe · October 28, 2001, 02:07

Quote:

Originally posted by VetteroX
little edit.... mech inf are 20, could have sworn I had seen 30 before. 20 is more reasonable. Still, thats 40 in a city, pretty rough stuff... hope you brought some radar arty/stealth bombers to crack that.

I also purchased the book today.

Here are some more defense modifiers (page 173):
Town (size < 7): +0% (that's what walls are for)
City (size 7 to 12): +50%
Metropolis (size > 12): +100%

City defended by Coastal Fortress: +50% (against naval units)
Fortress: +25%
Fortified unit: +50%
Forest or Jungle:* +25%
Hill:* +50%
Mountain:* +100%

*ALL other terrain (including Coast, Sea & Ocean) provides a 10% defender combat bonus (page 21). I see this as an elegant way of giving the defender a slight edge in an otherwise equal situation.

The following paragraph was already mentioned by andrew.
To take out a heavily defended city, lots of bombardment will surely help. Unless your unit has precision strike capability, your bombardment will "randomly hit units, improvements, fortresses, population, and so on -- anything that might be in the target area." (page 175)
What seems powerful to me is that bombardment units (other than catapults) appear to fire multiple times when you target something, so you'll be doing a lot of damage (unless they changed it all like they did with the battleship).

Also, Fast (retreat enabled) units are those that have 2-MP (not 3 as Andrew mis-stated). Units will retreat if they are against a 1-MP unit, when they are down to 1 Hit Point.

You regain 1 Hit Point per turn of resting in non-enemy territory, or anywhere if you have Battlefield Medicine (Small Wonder).

BTW, without using a leader, you will be creating ALL your armies at your Military Academy (Small Wonder) city.

Railroad (non-combat) note: Other than increasing commerce by one (along with roads), I could not find any mention of them in the whole book.

Until I get the game and find what is incorrect in the book, it looks like a great purchase.

UKScud · October 28, 2001, 03:02

Quote:

To take out a heavily defended city, lots of bombardment will surely help. Unless your unit has precision strike capability, your bombardment will "randomly hit units, improvements, fortresses, population, and so on -- anything that might be in the target area.

Can you write a little bit more about bombardment units?

Which units have 'random' bombardment?
Which units have 'specific' bombardment?

Iman · October 28, 2001, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew1999

There are a few things that wouldn't be in the manual/Civilopedia (like the chances of success for various spy missions) but most of it you can proabably live without. Or just wait for some poor sap to buy the guide and then spend all weekend transcribing it to a forum.

Dear Andrew,

Please say those thing which we're not gonna find in manual/civilopedia since i think they must be useful however tiny points.

Thanx

Solver · October 28, 2001, 06:40

Yeah, well, read this whole thing, and brought me to one decision. I'll be playing my first game on Prince, as I don't want to have any bonuses over the AI, but don't want (still) to give it bonuses...

korn469 · October 28, 2001, 07:22

Ok guys, particularly Andrew1999, great job!

now i have a few questions

*Could you please list the stats of each government
*What is the unit spport forumula? does either population or cities add to the total number of armies you can support for free?
*Could you find all of the info possible on war penalties and list it?
*How about specific effects for each wonder?

thanks!

old dog · October 28, 2001, 08:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew1999
The Great Lighthouse (expires with Magnetism) and Magellan's Voyage add one movment to your naval units. Harbors produce veteran naval units in addition to producing more food from water squares and allowing trade.

Can this be true? Although Civ 3 is now up to three "depths" of water, the Lighthouse does NOT upgrade ships' ability to end a turn in deeper water?

Also, harbors produce veteran ships? This seems a bit cheap. I would expect the result to be that almost all ships are veteran. (On second thought, with the new "elite" level, maybe this will play out fine.)

Once again, thank you Andrew!

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 08:23

Quote:

Originally posted by korn469
Ok guys, particularly Andrew1999, great job!

now i have a few questions

*Could you please list the stats of each government
*What is the unit spport forumula? does either population or cities add to the total number of armies you can support for free?
*Could you find all of the info possible on war penalties and list it?
*How about specific effects for each wonder?

thanks!

I can answer your unit support question based on BlueHooHoo's messages in the chat room yesterday. Monarchy and Communism can support 2 units for free per town, 4 per city, and 8 per metropolis. Any beyond those cost 1 per turn. I believe your cities are considered towns when they are below aqueduct size, cities when they are between aqueduct and hospital size, and metropolises when they go above hospital size.

Republics and Democracies cannot support any free units - they all cost 1 per turn. BlueHooHoo did not give the stats for Despotism or Anarchy.

By the way, the number of units you can support is determined for the civ as a whole. So you add up the amount supported by each city given the city's size to determie the total support. Inidividual units are not tied to cities. So a small (town-size) city could build 50 units, as long as other cities in your civ can support it or you have the gold to pay the excess.

old dog · October 28, 2001, 08:55

One more question: Does the first civ to discover philosophy still get a free tech advance?

BLackraven42 · October 28, 2001, 09:21

Andrew, Great Job!!!

BTW: When playing on Cheiftan (That will be my first game just to get used to civ3) will the AI wait for for you to be able to start a wonder before it does? That took a lot of the fun out of civ2.

CapTVK · October 28, 2001, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe

I also purchased the book today.

Here are some more defense modifiers (page 173):
Town (size < 7): +0% (that's what walls are for)
City (size 7 to 12): +50%
Metropolis (size > 12): +100%

City defended by Coastal Fortress: +50% (against naval units)
Fortress: +25%
Fortified unit: +50%
Forest or Jungle:* +25%
Hill:* +50%
Mountain:* +100%

*ALL other terrain (including Coast, Sea & Ocean) provides a 10% defender combat bonus (page 21). I see this as an elegant way of giving the defender a slight edge in an otherwise equal situation.

Reading this I can only conclude that Civ3 is even more slanted towards the defender than the attacker. Take note that the quote doesn't say anything about the experience levels of troops. It seems a couple of Phalanxes on a hilltop will still be able to keep an entire army at bay. Could someone explain how the exp level of units factor into the defense bonus?

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 09:27

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK

Reading this I can only conclude that Civ3 is even more slanted towards the defender than the attacker. Take note that the quote doesn't say anything about the experience levels of troops. It seems a couple of Phalanxes on a hilltop will still be able to keep an entire army at bay. Could someone explain how the exp level of units factor into the defense bonus?

Phalanxes have been replaced by spearmen in Civ3, but they're the same rating (1/2/1). Regular units have 3 hit points, veteran units have 4, and elite units have 5. Conscripts and units found in goodie huts have 2 hit points.

So a fortified spearmen (phalanx) in a fortress on a mountain would have a +175% defense bonus, and would defend at 5.5 This unit would be able to survive against anything from the ancient era, as it should. In the middle ages, it might start taking some damage. Cavalry, which comes at the end of the middle ages, would probably be able to defeat it (depending on relative experience levels of course). Any modern unit would pummel it. So I think this is fairly realistic.

Jason Beaudoin · October 28, 2001, 09:34

Do any of you think that these "strategy guides" are a little off on the facts? ...because I always thought that the Manhattan Project was a small wonder, meaning that each civilization would have to build one in order to create nuclear weapons.

Forcing each civilization to build the Manhattan Project is certainly more realistic.

Are these facts correct?

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 09:39

We've already found quite a few areas where the strat guide is incorrect. Manhattan Project is apparently one of them - I think we've confirmed it is a small wonder that each civ must build, despite what the strat guide says. The strength of battleships appears to be another one.

m5cents · October 28, 2001, 09:43

When playing the world map - are the civ located in their logical place (ie Americans in North America) or is it random?

I've seen reviews elsewhere where this issue is not fully explained..

Thanks!

CapTVK · October 28, 2001, 09:47

Quote:

Originally posted by m5cents
When playing the world map - are the civ located in their logical place (ie Americans in North America) or is it random?

I've seen reviews elsewhere where this issue is not fully explained..

Thanks!

Probably you can play with historic and random locations, just as civ2. This feature is truly standard, so it's probably in.

Jason Beaudoin · October 28, 2001, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by albiedamned
We've already found quite a few areas where the strat guide is incorrect. Manhattan Project is apparently one of them - I think we've confirmed it is a small wonder that each civ must build, despite what the strat guide says. The strength of battleships appears to be another one.

Good! I was becoming disappointed by some of the so called "facts" from that strategy guide.

That's pretty pathetic then, wouldn't you say? You buy a strategy guide that has serious errors in it. Waste of money.

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Xmudder

No +1 commerce for flood plain? Flood Plains can't be mined, and never have shields? That contradicts a number of screenshots we've seen.

How much does it cost to build a Scout? 20? I know it takes 1 gold to maintain it.

Any tile that borders a river gets a +1 commerce bonus, so most (if not all) floodplains would get that benefit.

Scouts only cost 10 to build.

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 10:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin

Good! I was becoming disappointed by some of the so called "facts" from that strategy guide.

That's pretty pathetic then, wouldn't you say? You buy a strategy guide that has serious errors in it. Waste of money.

There's almost no way the strat guide could have any actual strategies that we won't figure out here on Apolyton in a matter of days (if not hours!). So the only reason to get it is for its info on the game. Since that's flawed, and since the game is out in 48 hours, I think I'll pass on the strat guide.

Not that I don't appreciate those who bought it and are posting info from it here! Three cheers for Andrew1999!

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 10:05

Quote:

Originally posted by old dog
Can this be true? Although Civ 3 is now up to three "depths" of water, the Lighthouse does NOT upgrade ships' ability to end a turn in deeper water?

Also, harbors produce veteran ships? This seems a bit cheap. I would expect the result to be that almost all ships are veteran. (On second thought, with the new "elite" level, maybe this will play out fine.)

Once again, thank you Andrew!

Yes, the Lighthouse also allows your ships to enter deeper waters.

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by old dog
One more question: Does the first civ to discover philosophy still get a free tech advance?

Nope, that's been taken out.

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 10:12

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK

Reading this I can only conclude that Civ3 is even more slanted towards the defender than the attacker. Take note that the quote doesn't say anything about the experience levels of troops. It seems a couple of Phalanxes on a hilltop will still be able to keep an entire army at bay. Could someone explain how the exp level of units factor into the defense bonus?

The guide emphasizes several times the importance of bombarding a fortified city or fortress before you attack it. I think we're going to see some impressive sieges in this game.

Jason Beaudoin · October 28, 2001, 10:28

Yes! I'm glad that Firaxis made bombarbment important.

Comrade Tribune · October 28, 2001, 10:31

Can you give a short description of what the wonders do? Especially new ones and those whose effects have changed.

mrknightly · October 28, 2001, 10:32

With regards to advancing into an new age, if we had decided not to research the various optional techs does that mean we can no longer research them once we are in another age???

I guess there's always the dastardly option of commerical epsionage...

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Can you give a short description of what the wonders do? Especially new ones and those whose effects have changed.

I did the small wonders a few pages ago; here's the rest:
Colossus: Generates one extra commerce in any square already producing commerce in that city. Expires with Flight
Copernicus' Observatory: Doubles research in that city
Cure for cancer: Makes one unhappy citizen content in all your cities
Great Library: Gives you any advance two other civs have discovered. Expires with Education.
Great Lighthouse: Allows ships to go one level deeper into the ocean. Increases ship movement by 1. Expires with Magnetism
Great Wall: Doubles effects of walls in cities that have them. Doubles attack strength vs. barbarians. Expires with Metallurgy.
Hanging Gardens: Makes 3 unhappy citizens content in its city and one unhappy citizen content in your other cities. Expires with Steam Power.
Hoover Dam: Acts as a Hydro Plant in all your cities on that continent.
Bach's Cathedral: Decreases the number of unhappy people by 2 in each city on the same continent
Leonardo's Workshop: Allows you to upgrade units at 1/2 the cost
Longevity: Population increases by 2 instead of 1 when the food box is filled
Magellan's Voyage: Movement of all naval units increased by 1
Manhattan Project: Allows nuclear weapons*
Newton's University: Doubles Scientific research in its city
The Oracle: Doubles the effect of all temples. Expires with Theology
Pyramids: Acts as a granary in all your cities on the same continent
SETI Program: Doubles research in its city
Shakespeare's Theater: Makes 8 unhappy citizens in that city content
Sistine Chapel: Doubles the effect of Cathedrals
Smith's Trading Company: Free maintenance for Marketplaces, Banks, Harbors, and Airports
Sun Tzu's Art of War: Provides benefits of a Barracks in all your cities on that continent
Theory of Evolution: Gives you 2 free advances
United Nations: Allows diplomatic victory
Universal Suffrage: Reduces war weariness in all your cities.

*The Manhattan Project was changed to a small wonder after the book was printed.

Andrew1999 · October 28, 2001, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by mrknightly
With regards to advancing into an new age, if we had decided not to research the various optional techs does that mean we can no longer research them once we are in another age???

I guess there's always the dastardly option of commerical epsionage...

You can go back and research older techs if you want.