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Old October 27, 2001, 16:33   #1
UKScud
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Oil - My favorite resource!
In the thread "Civ3 Strategy guide is out, Andrew 1999 says

Mech. Inf: Oil, Rubber
Modern Armor: Oil, Rubber, Aluminum
Paratrooper: Oil, rubber
Tank: Oil, Rubber

Battleship: Oil
Carrier: Oil
Destroyer: Oil
Submarine: Oil
Transport: Oil

Bomber: Oil
Fighter: Oil
Helicopter: Oil, rubber
Jet Fighter: Oil
Stealth Bomber: Oil, Aluminum
Stealth Fighter: Oil, Uranium

It would certainly seem that oil is THE end game resource, as it should be.

Quote:
Oil 0/1/2 - Refining
All that oil will appear when refining is developed. Note that there is both a production (1) and economic (2) bonus associated with the resource tile.

Some questions to ponder?

Do you think that the reliance of most of the modern (non-nuclear) units on oil will result in the late game becoming an oil hunt?

It would seem that once you have cut off a nations supply of oil in the modern age, they become ripe for conquest.

Do you think warmongers have an easy route to victory this way, or will cutting off the oil supply be harder than it appears?
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Old October 27, 2001, 16:44   #2
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yep, oil will be very important later on gameplay.
some great wars had started caused by oil disputes and so many will come.
Great add from developers put this as a key to victory in game.
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Old October 27, 2001, 16:50   #3
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It useless as far as building a space ship or city improvments though however
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Old October 27, 2001, 16:53   #4
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No oil in your lands? Time to go for that cultural/spaceship victory.

Too bad Firaxis forgot that plastics are all derived from petroleum, and its guaranteed that significant portions of any spaceships would be plastic.
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:09   #5
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No oil in your lands? Time to go for that cultural/spaceship victory
SerapisIV, you've forgotten one very very important thing. How you gonna defend your lands with no oil. If you've no modern units then your resources are going to be up for grabs by the other oil-resourced Civs.

How you going to launch a starship with only saltpeter and coal?

Seriously though, I think this illustrates how integrated the resource model is in any victory condition, and why it is so important that you explore, expand your frontiers and defend colonies in the middle game.

Early game is just going to set you up. Explore the local map, work out where the critical parts of the continent to occupy are, and make first contact with about 2 other Civs on your own continent. The middle game is what will ensure you have a potentially winning end game.

A new question for everyone.

Do you think that oil will be THE most important resource in the game?

Any other candidates?
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:10   #6
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I wanna be an Oil baron
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:15   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKScud


SerapisIV, you've forgotten one very very important thing. How you gonna defend your lands with no oil. If you've no modern units then your resources are going to be up for grabs by the other oil-resourced Civs.
Not all units depend on oil. Artilery and infantry make for a good defensive army, complemented by diplomacy. Will be tricky though.

Quote:
How you going to launch a starship with only saltpeter and coal?
Could take quite a few turns for a steam-powered ship to reach AC!

Quote:
Do you think that oil will be THE most important resource in the game?

Any other candidates?
Iron. If you don't make it to 1000AD Oil won't help you....
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:22   #8
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Iron. If you don't make it to 1000AD Oil won't help you....
Exactly. The most important resources in each age is probably Iron (ancient) horses (middle) Saltpeter/Oil (Industrial) and Oil (Modern)
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:25   #9
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The fact is that oil is the most important resource in the modern world (if you discount living essentials like food, water etc.).
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:27   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKScud




How you going to launch a starship with only saltpeter and coal?

Do you think that oil will be THE most important resource in the game?

Any other candidates?
Oil is probably the most important resource in the game, as it is in real life. But just to tell you, powering the space **** has nothing to do with oil. Our spacecraft are powered by liquit hydrogen and oxygen. Other things could be used to replace liquit feul is maybe plasma. But oil never came into play here.
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:35   #11
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Quote:
Iron. If you don't make it to 1000AD Oil won't help you....
I think you're right. The mid-game, which I am coming to realize will be so important depends entirely upon iron.

The following units depend upon iron:

Cannon: Saltpeter, Iron
Knight: Horses, Iron
Pikeman: Iron
Swordsman: Iron

Frigate: Iron, Saltpeter
Ironclad: Iron, Coal
Privateer: Iron, Saltpeter

And the following city improvements require it too...

Coastal Fortress: Iron, Saltpeter
Factory: Iron
Iron Works: Coal and Iron in city radius



Baring the ironclad and swordsmen, all the iron dependant units are certainly middle game.

You CANNOT gain naval superiority during the middle game without iron. You cannot defend against naval superiority (Naval Fortress) without it.

Once you have saltpeter though I am sure you will be building musketmen rather than Knights and pikemen?

I might extend your comment about iron to include saltpeter as well, since the most important middle game units (musketman, cannon and firgate/privateer) depend upon them both.
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:44   #12
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Quote:
Oil is probably the most important resource in the game, as it is in real life. But just to tell you, powering the space **** has nothing to do with oil. Our spacecraft are powered by liquit hydrogen and oxygen. Other things could be used to replace liquit feul is maybe plasma. But oil never came into play here.
I know this, doh!

The point I was trying to make was this...

It doesn't matter if you are well on your way to building the starship or not...if you have no oil, you cannot build the majority of the useful modern day units.

Mobile warfare is impossible, tanks require oil.

You cannot project naval power when your opponent has submarines, destroyers, and battleships, and you have ironclads because you have no oil.

You cannot project air superiority (aircraft carrier), or defend your own skies because your airforce consists of gliders, while the enemy has fighters and bombers. Because he has oil!

All you can do is sit in your cities and fortresses and wait for the carpet bombing and naval bombardment to begin.

If you have no oil in the end game, you are finished, fodder for any aggresive civ that wants your land.
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Old October 27, 2001, 17:49   #13
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If you have no oil in the end game you are fodder for any aggresive civ that wants your lands...

...and, a point I made in my first post...

If you deny another Civ the oil that they need to make modern units...

...then they are fodder for you!!!
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Old October 27, 2001, 18:18   #14
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Oil and uranium are the two resources most likely to be exhausted and disappear from the map.

"Well, Texas has run out, the Persian Gulf has run out, and now the North Sea is out. Quick! Everybody invade Antarctica!"
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Old October 27, 2001, 18:34   #15
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Have the full details of the economic model been published anywhere? Specifically, I'm wondering if the resource requirements are elastic or inelastic. Does quantity matter, or just general accessibility?

In other words, if I have one tile inside my borders that contains iron, or one tile that contains oil, will that be sufficient for as many cities and units as I can muster [assuming everything is connected by roads] or is there a limit to how many units or cities can be supported by/from a single resource tile?

This has gigantic strategic consequences - actually, it pretty much is the deciding factor in determining the relative viability of expansionist and perfectionist styles - but I haven't seen the specific rule defined anywhere. If a single resource tile can support all your units, a perfectionist style is possible and sound - but if there is a support limit per tile, then the expansionist model is self-reinforcing in a feedback-loop sort of way and all other styles of play would pretty much be excluded [the big get bigger and the strong get stronger].
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Old October 27, 2001, 18:35   #16
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i think it would make some kickass scenarios, "OPEC Bloackade"
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Old October 27, 2001, 19:08   #17
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Quote:
In other words, if I have one tile inside my borders that contains iron, or one tile that contains oil, will that be sufficient for as many cities and units as I can muster [assuming everything is connected by roads] or is there a limit to how many units or cities can be supported by/from a single resource tile?
As I understand it, and the basis for all my recent posts, only one resource (quantity) is required to build as many units as you want, and the resource dependant buildings too.

So...it's somewhat black and white.

You have oil...you have access to many modern units.

You have no oil...you have no modern units...unless someone sells them to you? Will blockade stop this?

If you have more than one oil resource tile being worked you can sell access to it to an ally...or not...as the case may be

At higher levels where the AI is less likely to trade with you (I would think), an expansionist policy will be essential. You have to increase the likelihood that there will be all the resources within your own borders, or it will be almost impossible to gain the upper hand.

Both world wars depended upon the denial of resources for the axis powers. For those that don't know...

In WW1, Germany used saltpeter (potassium nitrate) resources from South America. It had none within its own national borders. The blockade by the British navy was for the most part extremely effective in denying them access to this resource. It is thought that WW1 would have been an awful lot shorter were this to have remained the case. Then along came Herr. Haber, who as most chemistry-minded high school students know invented the Haber process. This circumvented the blockade and allowed Germany to continue the war.

In WW2, the naval power of the Japanese was severely curtailed by blocking their access to oil reserves. I understand they used all kinds of non-refined alternatives, but none of them allowed the Japanese Navy to be as effective as if it had oil.

Andrew1999
How do you know that oil and uranium are the ones most likely to disappear from the map?
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Old October 27, 2001, 19:49   #18
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This is a little off topic for this thread but;

why should the stealth fighter require uranium, shouldn't it require only aluminium, and oil like the bomber. I mean what in a stealth fighter has uranium,... or was that just a typo
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Old October 27, 2001, 20:24   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mars
This is a little off topic for this thread but;

why should the stealth fighter require uranium, shouldn't it require only aluminium, and oil like the bomber. I mean what in a stealth fighter has uranium,... or was that just a typo
yeah, that should have been aluminum. My mistake.

And the strategy guide says, "Uranium and Oil are the most prone to depletion, but Iron, Saltpeter, Aluminum and Coal supplies can also run out."
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Old October 27, 2001, 20:48   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew1999


yeah, that should have been aluminum. My mistake.

And the strategy guide says, "Uranium and Oil are the most prone to depletion, but Iron, Saltpeter, Aluminum and Coal supplies can also run out."
is there online version of the strategy guide?
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Old October 27, 2001, 21:15   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKScud
SerapisIV, you've forgotten one very very important thing. How you gonna defend your lands with no oil. If you've no modern units then your resources are going to be up for grabs by the other oil-resourced Civs.

How you going to launch a starship with only saltpeter and coal?
Assuming that all you're missing is oil, it's a resource that the spaceship doesn't need. Uranium is necessary. (Besides that, no rocket uses oil, they usually use exotic fuels like hydrazine)

Also you could easily defend with lots of infantry fortified in your cities, then culture expand your way into enemy territory. If you play nice with local civs, all you need is a tech lead with SS necessary tech, the rest you can give away to keep people happy.
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Old October 27, 2001, 21:56   #22
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Quote:
is there online version of the strategy guide?
I suppose not...

Their idea is to make money with it.
Selling it on pdf would make it just spread to fast.
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Old October 28, 2001, 01:22   #23
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Assuming that all you're missing is oil, it's a resource that the spaceship doesn't need. Uranium is necessary. (Besides that, no rocket uses oil, they usually use exotic fuels like hydrazine)
SerapisIV
I don't dispute that oil is not required for the starship launch, but I do maintain however, that it would not be possible for a Civ to protect itself (and complete the starship) if it did not have the modern units that oil allows. Hence my comment about saltpeter and coal.

Late 19th Century units just won't be able to defend against the more modern units.

If you don't have oil, you can't defend yourself in the late game, and its very unlikely that you'll survive to the end of the game, bar defeat.

I challenge everyone, once Civ3 is released, try to win a game, of at least Prince level (that's the one with no AI/player bonuses isn't it?) without exploiting any oil resource at all.
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Old October 28, 2001, 04:55   #24
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You know what would make a great game/scenario? A couple of patches of oil in the world - which run out soon after discovery! Hope you built some armor already! Makes those modern units you built all the more valuable. (Hell no don't send in the fighters yet! Send in the cavalry to soften them up first. We can't build anymore $%^ing jets. So save them until the enemy is down completely to premodern units. Then bring out the fighters and tanks!)
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Old October 28, 2001, 10:03   #25
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Yeah, the potential for very limited resources scenarios is great. How about just one patch of each type of resources. It'd stop all armies looking the same!
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Old October 28, 2001, 10:47   #26
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Another strategy to use when you don't have the resources is send your workers out to work on the land as they have a small chance of discovering a resource. Hopefully oil!
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Old October 28, 2001, 11:04   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKScud
SerapisIV
I don't dispute that oil is not required for the starship launch, but I do maintain however, that it would not be possible for a Civ to protect itself (and complete the starship) if it did not have the modern units that oil allows. Hence my comment about saltpeter and coal.

Late 19th Century units just won't be able to defend against the more modern units.

If you don't have oil, you can't defend yourself in the late game, and its very unlikely that you'll survive to the end of the game, bar defeat.

I challenge everyone, once Civ3 is released, try to win a game, of at least Prince level (that's the one with no AI/player bonuses isn't it?) without exploiting any oil resource at all.
Metropolis' give a defense of 100% Infantry have defense of 10, artillery require nothing. The most modern army unit has only 24 attack. I'd say that lots of infantry would fare pretty well in metropolis.' In addition to having artillery to weaken your attackers.

I don't care about real history. The way Civ3 units are established, you could easily protect yourself without oil. You couldn't attack anyone but you could easily defend yourself. Throw in diplomacy with a few client states who want your tech and your civ could easily defend without oil.
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Old October 28, 2001, 14:44   #28
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I don't care about real history. The way Civ3 units are established, you could easily protect yourself without oil. You couldn't attack anyone but you could easily defend yourself. Throw in diplomacy with a few client states who want your tech and your civ could easily defend without oil.
Then you'll accept my challenge as a gentlemens wager?
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Old October 28, 2001, 14:47   #29
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In general, a nice idea. I'll be bombing roads that give them oil, and then laugh as my Tanks kill his Musketmen...
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Old October 28, 2001, 14:55   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKScud
Then you'll accept my challenge as a gentlemens wager?
Wish I could, I'll be lucky to play 3 games of Civ3 by the end of May. I'm forced to use my girlfriends computer to play (mine's too old). She also bought the game for me for Xmas. It took 3 weeks of whining for her to let me play it this weekend when it arrives and I can't guarantee that she still will let me play. Also, I guarantee you that she'll whine her way into not letting me play more then 2-5 hours per week, yeah thats right, per week. I'll start hearing the usual whines of "why won't you talk to me, all you care about is that game, why don't you spend time with me." There goes my Civ playing, but at least I'll have the game.

It'll be at least 3 games of just having fun before I'd be confident in my game knowledge to actually take on any resource limited challenges. Ask me again next spring. Maybe I'll actually have finished my second game by then. (women, can't live with them... can't kill 'em)
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