Dark clouds on the horizon revealed after purchase of the strategy guide

monkspider · October 28, 2001, 03:19

I see that someone else here has purchased the strategy guide as well, and has done an excellent job of getting some info out to boot. Good show Andrew. In any event there are two major things that disappointed me after my purchase of the Strategy Guide.

1. Government types are as rigid and boring as they are in Civ 2. From what I gather, Democracy is still nye-worthless for war, adn Communism is nye-worthless for science. Worst of all though, there is no real reason not to be Communism or Democracy. In other words, whatever the older govs do, the new ones do better.

2. There has been what looks like an increasing Civ-2-esque governement. From the description of some of the higher difficulty levels, it sounds like they just heap tons of unhappiness on you. So it will be more like the computer trying to create challenges for the player, rather than acting in a realistic way.

oh yeah, one other HUGE disappointment
3. Elvis is confirmed as being OUT!

I haven't had a chance to read it terrribly throughly but that is what I have gathered thus far. In spite of the bad news i have posted, there is really quite a bit to be excited about.
On the plus side though, here is quote from the last page, which is an interview with Sid.

Prima: One Final question, Civilization IV. Have you thought whether you'd like to do Civ IV and, if so, what might it be like?
Sid: That's a good question. If the fans still want more after Civ III, then we'll talk about giving them more.

monkspider · October 28, 2001, 04:11

Okay, I have found one more thing that kind of stinks. The age-old build Manhattan project and everyone gets nukes rule is STILL in place!

monkspider · October 28, 2001, 05:06

Here's something else odd, Americans are classified under the same Global Culture as the Zulus, Iroquois, and Aztecs. Would they not make more sense grouped with the European cultures? I'm sure we have had better relations with European powers than with the indigonous peoples of America.

Ralf · October 28, 2001, 05:14

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
1. Government types are as rigid and boring as they are in Civ 2.

This is several months old news, Monkspider. If you want to share info from this new strategy guide - at least give us unknown, not previously puplicized stuff instead. Besides; some prefered SE, and some other really prefer the Civ-govs system (me, for instance). Whats "rigid" and "boring" is a matter of subjectivity. Go for the objective facts, first and foremost - try to keep subjective whining out from these initial posts, please.

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From what I gather, Democracy is still nye-worthless for war

Good (old) news!

Civ-democracy has so many strong & positive benefits associated with it, anyway. Allowing unhindered & problemless world-conquering wars under democracy, with Alexander/Napoleon/Hitler-style landgrabbing war-objectives would make this Gov waaay to powerful.

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Worst of all though, there is no real reason not to be Communism or Democracy. In other words, whatever the older govs do, the new ones do better.

Why not post direct quotes from this strategy-guide instead? Exactly what benefits/disadvantages has despotism, monarchy, republic, communism & democracy, respectively?

Give us objective FACTS - not your personal viewpoints.

Falconius · October 28, 2001, 05:54

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
The age-old build Manhattan project and everyone gets nukes rule is STILL in place!

The guide is wrong. The Man. Proj. is already confirmed as a Small Wonder. A lot of the info in the guide was not updated in time.

Sarxis · October 28, 2001, 06:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Falconius

The guide is wrong. The Man. Proj. is already confirmed as a Small Wonder. A lot of the info in the guide was not updated in time.

This little 'fault' has made me decide not to even bother with the strat guide for sure now [ok, maybe I won't buy it, but a peak is acceptable, right?].

Elvis is out? Thank the Maker! The tackiness level of that old icon is beyond measuring.

Plus I don't like Elvis' music.

Rakki · October 28, 2001, 07:05

who needs a strat guide when that's what skool is for ? This is not exactly Tomb Raider where they stick damn levers and hidden passages all over the place ya know...

old dog · October 28, 2001, 08:29

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
From the description of some of the higher difficulty levels, it sounds like they just heap tons of unhappiness on you. So it will be more like the computer trying to create challenges for the player, rather than acting in a realistic way.

My son and I have argued over this ever since we started to play Civ 1 nearly 10 years ago!

He finds the whole issue of population happiness a bore and just wants to get on with the other aspects of the game.

I feel that it's an integral part of running a nation. One of the major factors for any ruler is that, regardless of what he does strategically to conquer or stay ahead of the rest of the world, he must first of all maintain control of his own country. And there is no perfect way to maintain this control -- whatever method has been tried through history, there has always been a downside.

The Civ games abstract this level of control in the form of city happiness, and, in my opinion, it works very well, except for sometimes seeming to be a bit too much of a predictable formula. But if you want to just build barracks and crank out military units without any consideration of the other aspects of ruling, it seems like there are lots of other games out there for you.

Meanwhile, what could make for a better "difficulty level" determiner than how tough it is to stay in control of your own people? None of us like AI cheats, so this seems like a great solution to me.

As to Civ 3, we'll soon see how it plays out, but I think the effect of the luxury resources will make things more interesting. And "war weariness" sounds more real and less formulaic than in the past.

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 08:30

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
1. Government types are as rigid and boring as they are in Civ 2. From what I gather, Democracy is still nye-worthless for war, adn Communism is nye-worthless for science. Worst of all though, there is no real reason not to be Communism or Democracy. In other words, whatever the older govs do, the new ones do better.

As we say in the software industry, that's not a bug, it's a feature. Communism and Democracy are supposed to make Monarchy and Republic obsolete. They are more advanced, more modern forms of government.

Mars · October 28, 2001, 08:58

What did you expect, of coarse monarchy and older tech govs are going to be obselete. I'm happy about elvis being out, though that manhattan project thing really scared me for a second. That seriously annoyed me in civ2. I always thought why should i build, if someone else builds it then i can use nukes without that damn wonder

zeh · October 28, 2001, 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Falconius
The guide is wrong. The Man. Proj. is already confirmed as a Small Wonder. A lot of the info in the guide was not updated in time.

For sure! This guides are all a crap.
Burn them all!

Comrade Tribune · October 28, 2001, 10:45

Quote:

Originally posted by old dog
One of the major factors for any ruler is that, regardless of what he does strategically to conquer or stay ahead of the rest of the world, he must first of all maintain control of his own country. And there is no perfect way to maintain this control -- whatever method has been tried through history, there has always been a downside.

The Civ games abstract this level of control in the form of city happiness, and, in my opinion, it works very well, except for sometimes seeming to be a bit too much of a predictable formula. But if you want to just build barracks and crank out military units without any consideration of the other aspects of ruling, it seems like there are lots of other games out there for you.

Meanwhile, what could make for a better "difficulty level" determiner than how tough it is to stay in control of your own people? None of us like AI cheats, so this seems like a great solution to me.

As to Civ 3, we'll soon see how it plays out, but I think the effect of the luxury resources will make things more interesting. And "war weariness" sounds more real and less formulaic than in the past.

Very good points. Totally agree.

Comrade Tribune · October 28, 2001, 10:48

Quote:

Originally posted by albiedamned
As we say in the software industry, that's not a bug, it's a feature. Communism and Democracy are supposed to make Monarchy and Republic obsolete. They are more advanced, more modern forms of government.

Maybe. But note that Despotism, in CivI, was so cleverly conceived that it stopped being obsolete, and became viable again, in the Modern Age.

albiedamned · October 28, 2001, 10:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

Maybe. But note that Despotism, in CivI, was so cleverly conceived that it stopped being obsolete, and became viable again, in the Modern Age.

You say cleverly conceived, I say misconceived. I doubt they meant it that way!

Comrade Tribune · October 28, 2001, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by albiedamned
I doubt they meant it that way!

But, of course! Where have you spent the last century?

Modern Despotism = Fascism.

Hophead · October 28, 2001, 11:08

I would have like to be able to mix and match parts of a government policy as you could in SMAC. But I guess there will be enough new stuff like culture to keep me busy.

facistdictator · October 28, 2001, 12:47

Hey monkspider why whine about limited goverments when they include a editor to make your own. I think the goverments they chose to be in the game where not that great either but thats what the editor is for.

MxM · October 28, 2001, 13:09

Quote:

Originally posted by facistdictator
Hey monkspider why whine about limited goverments when they include a editor to make your own. I think the goverments they chose to be in the game where not that great either but thats what the editor is for.

I think that there are at least 3 problems for using editor for this purpose:

1) IIRC, you cannot create new government, you can only modify existing ones
2) AI will not be able to understand value of the modified governments
3) You need to play test the whole game several times, before you will find that new government does not misbalance the game. It can be fun for someone, but usually it is not.

As for me, even though I prefer to have more useful government types, I will stick to original game design, unless somebody resolves all 3 points above (like official CIV III expansion)

Jaybe · October 28, 2001, 13:58

What I noticed is that they replaced Elvis with Groucho!!

monkspider · October 28, 2001, 13:58

I don't mean to seem like a "whiner" or a "foolish, sharing-old news guy". From what I recall, there were a large number of Apolyton members who wanted some of the anchient governments to still have some kind of advantage in the late game that makes them viable. Otherwise, you are left with only two government choices and that would probably fit most people's definition of "rigid" and/or "boring". Also, if the Manhattan project news is incorrect, then that's wonderful news indeed.
Also, extreme unhappiness on higher difficulty levels seems to me to be indicative of an incapable AI that can win by no other means.
I don't mean to rain on people's proverbial parade by reporting this. With the game's release a scant two days away, I'm sure everyone here is pretty pumped. I am as well. But let us not let our excitement cloud our judgement, if at all possible.

DarkCloud · October 28, 2001, 16:00

Dark Clouds! Yikes!

...I bet I could find a way to win the game with Monarchy!

I am an expert at it... For 4 years I never tried any other government! Then I found Fundamentalism

The Templar · October 28, 2001, 16:02

Hey Monkspider, don't listen to Ralf. If he thinks postings about the strategy guide should be value neutral - let him buy the damn thing and make a thread they way he thinks it should be done. Quit being such a thread facist, Ralf.

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Plus I don't like Elvis' music.

I don't care for it either. Good riddance!

Steve Clark · October 28, 2001, 16:15

Don't be dissing Ralf, he has more common sense in his earlobe than most of you have in your brains...combined.

squid · October 28, 2001, 16:22

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
build Manhattan project and everyone gets nukes rule is STILL in place!

That's about how it happened in real life.

Steve Clark · October 28, 2001, 16:26

A hypothetical question. Would any of you have bought Civ2 if you had the crappy Civ2 Strategy Guide before hand?

SteveJH · October 28, 2001, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Clark
A hypothetical question. Would any of you have bought Civ2 if you had the crappy Civ2 Strategy Guide before hand?

Yes I would of still bought it.. I put very little faith in strategy guides.

Ming · October 28, 2001, 16:39

I've never seen a reason to BUY a strategy guide for games like Civ. Why bother when we have sites like this one to provide us better information for free

SerapisIV · October 28, 2001, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
What I noticed is that they replaced Elvis with Groucho!!

Is that in all ages? Are you certain?

Gyromancer · October 28, 2001, 17:29

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I don't mean to seem like a "whiner" or a "foolish, sharing-old news guy".

Heh. Watch out for the old-news Nazis

Quote:

[SIZE=1]From what I recall, there were a large number of Apolyton members who wanted some of the anchient governments to still have some kind of advantage in the late game that makes them viable. Otherwise, you are left with only two government choices and that would probably fit most people's definition of "rigid" and/or "boring".

IMHO this is one of the most disappointing aspects of CIV III. Hopefully it will be relatively simple to mod the game like in CTP....

lockstep · October 28, 2001, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by MxM
IIRC, you cannot create new government, you can only modify existing ones

YDNRC (You did not remember correctly).

http://www.civ3.com/asktheteam_092801.cfm