Civ3: Who's resolve is first to falter? - Page 5

Alexander's Horse · November 15, 2001, 23:52

Hmmm, weakening, maybe I should buy this game - AI good at war - I'd like to see that

Steve Clark · November 16, 2001, 00:03

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
This was at deity level..... seems i still need to master emperor a bit more

You're bragging again, my friend.

Bird · November 16, 2001, 00:30

Horse: "good" is a relative term, but the ai is definitely better at war than before. One of the things that helps the ai, I think, is the elimination of ZOC's. The ai in my game has avoided traps to get to where it wants to get.

Alexander's Horse · November 16, 2001, 00:42

I didn't buy it first off but maybe now I will have to - just to keep up with the master class

deity · November 16, 2001, 00:57

Installing it right now....

Alexander's Horse · November 16, 2001, 01:14

Damn - now I'll have to buy it

My son Hydey already has it. I told Mrs Horse I'd pick up the kids and she could do the shopping but I just told her I'd meet her at the mall

War4ever · November 16, 2001, 02:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Clark

You're bragging again, my friend.

Steve i must admit i was way over my head in that game....hell i am having trouble on Emperor

do you guyz raze cities early? i find myself keeping every city i conquer.... sometimes this comes back to haunt me....

Damm egyptians and their war chariots

Ming · November 16, 2001, 03:33

One thing that makes the AI smarter at war is that they now "select" what they are going to attack. In Civ II, if an AI unit was next to a city... it attacked the city, not any other of your units it touched. In the field, they tend to ignore fights it can't win easily, and instead, attacks what it should be able to beat.

Yeah, it still attacks when it doesn't have a good chance, but it is far smarter at war than the AI in Civ II. And Bird is right also... the lack of ZOC's allows them more flexibility, and does limit your ability to box them in.

Xin Yu · November 16, 2001, 03:35

Played a couple of hours tonight. Two interesting findings.

First, I was researching writing but traded with an AI for it. I was hoping it would reduce my turns for literature, but it didn't. However the tech queue did work -- I set the 'big picture' of writing-literature and after writing is obtained it asked me whether I wanted literature. If I did not set it up that way the computer would have randomly selected a tech for me to research.

Second, I could buy workers from AIs for 30 golds each. The workers appeared in my capital after the trade. However the option disappeared after I obtained 2 workers from Germany. Looks like only workers inside capital city could be traded. If you contact with an AI early you can use this method to boost your economy while delay the AI -- whenever the AI pop up a worker from its capital you buy it. It's free of support.

Ming · November 16, 2001, 04:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Xin Yu
If I did not set it up that way the computer would have randomly selected a tech for me to research.

I thought the same... but Rah figured out that you can change the science you are working on by just going to your science advisor screen. You can change at any time, but you lose all the progress... it doesn't transfer. So if the computer picks randomly for you, you just change it... nothing lost.

Carolus Rex · November 16, 2001, 06:35

This game sounds great! Two more weeks, two more weeks...

BTW, when Civ 2 came out Fundamentalism was too powerful IIRC, so they downgraded the science rate even further. Fixing the corruption levels (if they indeed are unbalancing), and the other things Rah mentioned, in a patch, should be a walk in the park!

Carolus

Smash · November 16, 2001, 06:53

There is a bit of a hole in the government scene for conquering.Only Monarchy is available for longterm warfare types.The representative governments can be used but war weariness is a pain.Communism is a long ways down the tech tree and there is no SoL or similiar.
You need to celebrate a monarchy and hope you won't have to go for other landmasses for awhile.

Bird · November 16, 2001, 10:13

Speaking of war, I really got caught with my pants down in my game. I was doing well, probably second behind the red civ, which had a huge landmass all to itself. I had been peaceful and mostly cooperative with the other civs the whole game, including the Aztecs. The Aztecs had betrayed the Germans earlier in the game, so they weren't entirely trustworthy, but we had trade agreements and right of passage agreements. Once the trade agreement expired, they launched a sneak attack, taking 4 large cities on the same turn, razing each one. This came at a stage in the game where most of my cities were either improved to the max or getting there quickly. It hurts to watch size 17 cities razed. It really does.

Lesson learned, though.

War4ever · November 16, 2001, 11:19

Bird i like the fact that the ai razes cities.......although the realism of losing four such cities might be in question, at least this ai throughs obstacles for us to hop through......

i am going to have to check out this science switch...its been just killing my research to have the "game" pick my research for me after a trade .....

one thing i have noticed..... is that i don't seem to get sciences from captured cities.....and i know i am not always in the tech lead every game

Steve Clark · November 16, 2001, 11:45

Are you sure about the science switch losing the progress? I vaguely recall switching several times without losing anything. For example, all of the techs in the same "class" (like the first column) starts out at 32 but if you got one down to 17, they are all at 17 now thus, you can switch up to the last turn without penalty. I think.

rah · November 16, 2001, 12:23

I'll have to check that, I was dealing with different classes.

If you get one though trade or the gl that you are working on, you lose whatever when you move to a new one.

Hmmmmmmm

RAH

Bird · November 16, 2001, 12:47

War4: don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the razing. I got caught with my pants down (I had 3 defenders in each city, but hadn't upgraded sufficiently). I'm not sure 3 defenders would have been sufficient anyway, which in and of itself demonstrates a difference between Civ 2 and Civ 3. Like I said, though, the lesson has been learned.

War4ever · November 16, 2001, 12:59

yes Bird you need more than three defenders.....the ai attacks in a swarm (still not really coordinated) lack of ZOC makes for a near impossibility to hem them in and they tend to travel on Mountains to go where they are going!

if you capture a setler does it turn into two workers? and why is it sometimes i capture scouts and other times i just kill them

if you need a road to the rival cap for trade how do you trade if you don't have that? i never get roads to the cap but sometimes by accident i have a road connecting to a city which is connected by road through their empire...

on the high levels i am running out of cash..... and those massive barb grow ops can be downright brutal if you don't get a vet right away.....

the worst is becoming a vet from barbs only to have the last one kill your weak warrior

Makeo · November 16, 2001, 15:40

well i have it only to find my ancient computer won't run it. I'm just below minimum requirements. i thought i would be able to get by.

War4ever · November 16, 2001, 16:25

makeo you must be running a dino...... i am a p2 266 and i am using 66mz ram but like the ai...i have alot of it.... for this kind of computer 256megs i believe

and it works for me.....

Bird · November 16, 2001, 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
makeo you must be running a dino...... i am a p2 266 and i am using 66mz ram but like the ai...i have alot of it.... for this kind of computer 256megs i believe

and it works for me.....

Hehehe. Sounds like you've been drinking already! What language are you speaking?

Hey makeo, I had to buy a new computer to play the game. I refuse to say publicly what kind of machine I was using.

Xin Yu · November 16, 2001, 17:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

I thought the same... but Rah figured out that you can change the science you are working on by just going to your science advisor screen. You can change at any time, but you lose all the progress... it doesn't transfer. So if the computer picks randomly for you, you just change it... nothing lost.

Maybe you don't lose all the progress when switching, and it may just stay with the old advance? For example if you are 10 turns away from writing and you switch to map making, then after you done with map making if you come back you get 10 turns left for writing. Of course if you buy it from some body then you lose all the accumulated turns.

Makeo · November 16, 2001, 17:16

i have a 233mhz processor with 32 meg of ram.

War4ever · November 16, 2001, 17:59

Makeo that sucks

BTW are you still in UTOPIA?

Xin....thank god someone pointed out the ability to plan science....

i am just rumbling through the game hail mary.... without remembering how i do things.... its the blind leading the blind

Is anyone building the four city perimeter in each direction from you cap ala civ2....i tried it and it works quite well in open spaces....

it slows growth towards your rival but allows for sustained growth in every direction.....

War4ever the not quite as good as he thought

Makeo · November 16, 2001, 20:02

yep. i'm still in utopia. i keep getting raped. i've lost more land than i've captured.

Xin Yu · November 16, 2001, 20:20

Here is the whole plan:

Play huge map. Select expansionist+commercial. Build your first city and start exploring.
First tech: writing, second tech: literature. Keep 1 science output for 64 turns.
Never trade techs; sell techs to get cash instead. The only exception is Masonry, for building palace then switching to a wonder. Also get communications to other civs at any cost.
Contact AI each turn and buy every worker available.
First thing to build: granary. Rush as soon as possible. Then build a settler (do not rush this tims). If play on deity, adjust luxury to quell unhappiness.
Build the second city ON RIVER, as close to the capital as possible. build granary, then workers untill you can build palace. Start building palace as soon as you can.
Meanwhile, from the first city build about 3 workers to work the city radius of the second city. Then build another settler. From now one, keep on building settlers to put down more cities.
Only switch to fighting units when barb appears.
Your scout should go straight to one direction, trying to find as many civs as you can.
Your only shot is to get the GL. Then sell advances to other civs. Then you'll be able to build a lot of wonders and enjoy culture advance.

deity · November 16, 2001, 22:30

God I suck!

3 cities by late BC;
capital near a jungle kept getting diseased;
barbs kept taking out cities but at least I kept them!

Serves me right thinking I could do Deity level right off

I did when switching from Civ1 to Civ2 but this is a much bigger leap.

It is an excellent SP game with a great interface and could form the basis for a great MP game with much re-programming.

I'm avoiding strats like Xin's that you won't be able to use in MP.
I'm preferring to play without too much help from the AI civs and only tech trading as a last resort.

How about a Civ3 MP forum so this group of familiar Civ2 MP folks can maintain a coherent dialog without putting all thoughts in this one long Civ 2 thread?

Nap Bonaparte · November 17, 2001, 00:55

I think that we all have been playing MP for so long that we have forgotten how to beat the AI. In MP we try to outgrow each other.
You could beat the AI in CivI by cranking out diplos and chariots/knights. You could beat the AI in CivII by cranking out diplos and crusaders/dragoons.
I dont think that it is possible to outgrow the AI in CivIII at Deity level. You need to get in the face of the AI ASAP and take out your neighbors. Let them build your cities for you. Leave them with 1 or 2 cities left and then sue for peace and take all their techs and gold. I used to build GL but its not necessary and it expires very early. You need to trade with the AI to stay competitive. When MP comes out we will all need to develop new strategies. A few observations....

1). Corruption is horrible even with courthouses, culture,democracy,communism,WLT_D's, and Forbidden Palace. You wont be able to get the MP advantage of controlling 50 cities to your opponents 20 like we have in Civ2. Once you get more than 8 hexes away fro your palace the corruption gets real bad.

2).Mobil units are key. They retreat when they are losing to slower units so they live to fight another day. They will be your best source of leaders to rush build wonders(like Forbidden Palace). My favorite ancient unit so far is the Iroquois Mounted Warrior: 3.1.1.

3). The power of rush building by sacrificing population in despotism and communism cannot be underestimated. IMHO this makes the Pyramids an extremely important wonder . Religion will be realized to be a very important civ attribute so you can switch between govt's to maximize rush building between gold and pop( not to mention switching govt's to alleviate war weariness or making it easier to rush build temples in newly conquered cities).

4). Starting positions seem more unbalanced and unequal that ever before. In one game you can start with a couple of cattle specials next to a river and the next game

you have a few squares of grassland surrounded by jungles the size of the Amazon and deserts the size of the Sahara.In one game you can start with 1 luxury special near you and the next game you have 3 luxury specials and iron, horses, saltpeter and coal to boot.

5). Trade routes are boring. Trade routes used to be a major part of MP strategy. Now you just trade for luxuries and strategic resources you dont have.....but you cant build up your individual cites with killer trade routes.

Im sure many, many strategies will be developed for MP but it appears as if it will be difficult for an individual to dominate in growth or trade as much as it could be done in Civ2 MP. Maybe we will have to resort to more armed conflicts......

War4ever · November 17, 2001, 03:13

The biggest advantage of all is the extra city i got being the French when i popped a hut...never received a set from any tribe other than expansionist.

Your right about land though..... i have a city with two furs a cattle and wheat on a flood plain... fish and gold....and i only needed a border expansion twice...... in the distance is another fish and two more incense with the next increase...

Then i go games as nap suggested with hills jungle.... mountains and plains

i still have some units that walk funny on roads?? not really sure why they can't always use all their MP

The only early wonder i go after is the pyramids....... they make expansion easy....

As for the pop rush in despot......... to me it seems the easy way out...many times i only need to kill one worker to finish a temple

Playing on the Pangea maps..... i often fo for the donut or wring of cities aproach..... works quite well and any cities that sneak in are easily absorbed culturally as they should be

unfortunately this game while being cool in some areas is really lacking in others and i fear that without a patch for some flaws, mp will be a disaster and i feel the replay value of this game is still undecided

Alexander's Horse · November 17, 2001, 20:38

Okay I bought this game

Got the LE too

I've played a couple of sessions at Chieftain or whatever the lowest is - I want to take my time and learn the game concepts and interface. I was bored in my first session but enjoyed the second session more, probably because I have a war to fight

Just took my first city - razing them is quite cool - I thought I'd get nothing but I got 4 workers out of it. No problem using roads, and I've got my slaves building more at the front

Had to negotiate a right of passage agreement to get at my enemy. No problem with techs and my civ is in republic with lots of units out. Built The Oracle for the first time

Forbidden city, Pyramids and Lighthouse.

One problem I'm having is setting up trade routes across the water (I'm on an island). I have ports but the game is telling me I don't have sea routes (I have embassies with all civs). I only have triremes for ships though. Maybe that's the problem.

So far so good