Significant changes in Wonders

[old dog]

Andrew 1999 has posted what each Wonder grants, according to the strategy guide, in his excellent thread. I noticed some very interesting difference from Civ 2:
Great Wall: Doubles effects of walls in cities that have them. Doubles attack strength vs. barbarians. Expires with Metallurgy.
Shakespeare's Theater: Makes 8 unhappy citizens in that city content
Sistine Chapel: Doubles the effect of Cathedrals
Smith's Trading Company: Free maintenance for Marketplaces, Banks, Harbors, and Airports

Whenever I aimed to be a peaceful developer in Civ 2(which was often), I depended heavily on the Great Wall to ensure mostly peaceful co-existence with my neighbors. Now it will not ensure peace but only protect cities; double city walls is very good indeed, but only small cities will have city walls in Civ 3, and, in any case, this does not protect resources, fortifications, and other units.

I almost always depended on Shakespeare's Theater to create one super-city to double as an incredible science city and a good production city. Of course, 8 unhappy citizens made happy is still a very nice benefit, but it is no longer an overwhelming thing. And it looks like cities will more often grow larger in Civ 3, so this wonder could really have gotten out of hand in its impact.

The Sistine Chapel does NOT provide a cathedral in every city -- it doubles the effects of each cathedral you build. Many of us had wondered whether this wonder would give each city the cultural benefit of a cathedral along with the contented population benefit. This answers the question. However, this still looks like an extremely good wonder, since it is a way to achieve a very large number of contented citizens in a city -- essential for these large Civ 3 cities. This also means that the "religious" civ attribute is better than it looked, because you are going to be building a lot of cathedrals during the game, and they are expensive.

Smith's Trading Company always single handedly solved all my concerns over gold, at least until very late in the game. It is very noticeable that libraries and temples, two of the most common city improvements (and even more central to the game now that culture has been added), are not covered, which will weaken the impact of this wonder. At least at first glance, I think I would now pass on this wonder.

None of this is a complaint. I think all of these are probably gameplay improvements. These four wonders were so good in Civ 2 as to be abusive, and I think this will be more balanced. With these changes, I lose some of my favorite tricks that ensured victory almost every time I played. But, of course, there's no surer way to become bored with a game than to know you are going to win from the start.

[Akron]

One minor thing. It seems, from screen shots and all the info so far, that cities in civ 3 will actually be smaller than in civ 2. First, terraforming and double irrigation have been removed, which were both essential to getting cities that could support 35+ citizens. Second, there is no more pop boom. However, standard growth rates in civ 3 will be much greater than in civ 2, as I believe towns have food boxes of 20, cities 40, and metropolises 60 (?). The largest city I've seen so far in a screenshot was 28. In civ 2, my cities at the end of the game used to be on average around 30.

[Urban Ranger]

No transforming? Where did you get that?

[Akron]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
No transforming? Where did you get that?

Bump thread, page 5. He lists the things that workers can perform, and neither terraforming nor double irrigation is there. But you can clear forests.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=5

[Sratava]

You can always edit wonders with the editor.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

You can also clear jungles and swamps i think because those give desiese to your workers working those tiles.

[Wexu]

Wohoo! No land transforming! I always wondered, what kind of spell did those engineers use when they made hills from grassland...

edit: Rasbelin, lol, good one!

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Wexu
I always wondered, what kind of spell did those engineers use when they made hills from grassland...

O mighty pieces of mud, small rocks and
heaps of sand, please transform yourselves to
some great hills.

[Skanky Burns]

They probably just borrowed all the excess dirt i had from turning my mountains and hills into grasslands

[Ironwolf]

What is this "when the worker works a swamp tile they get diseases"?

[Awender]

Did you notice that every wonder can be built by several civs? In the manual they differentiate Major and Minor Wonders. During the gameplay I didn't experience such a thing.

For example: Pyramids are built by almost 8 nations ans so on.

[August Borms]

every civ can start building a major wonder but only one can complete it

[Auslander]

Originally posted by Awender
Did you notice that every wonder can be built by several civs? In the manual they differentiate Major and Minor Wonders. During the gameplay I didn't experience such a thing.

For example: Pyramids are built by almost 8 nations ans so on.

Minor wonders are available to all Civs. 1 per Civ. Only one Civ can build major wonders.

Minor wonders - Forbidden Palace, Intelligence Agency, Pentagon, etc.

They become available when you accomplish certain goals. Wall Street appears when you construct 5 banks.

Pyramids are still a great wonder.

[Awender]

In my game Pyramids are built by 5 nations. I have a game, where Pyramids can be found in 5 cities.

Should I emphasize more? I never change anything in the game (game editor or so on).

[Lord Maxwell]

Awender - zip up the save file and put it on the web please. (Or email it to me at fracui@hotmail.com) I'd very much like to have a look at it. Never saw this happening in my games...

[MaSsConFUsi0n]

double irrigation isn't in the game, but railroads over irrigated land now increase the food. railroads over mined land increase the shields. there is no transforming terrain like in civ2 (ie tundra to desert, etc).

MaSsConFUsi0n

[1Razor]

[SIZE=1] there is no transforming terrain like in civ2 (ie tundra to desert, etc).

MaSsConFUsi0n

Not sure if I'm happy about this, since when have engineers been unable to irigate desert to create an Oasis, or decimate a mountain and turn it into a forest (given the time and resources). It just doesn't ring true with real life I'm afraid...........

[gfrazieror]

I've just built Universal Sufferage, and have noticed that I can still build police stations. In Civ II, Women's Sufferage took the place of police stations. Does this mean that I can get, in essence, double the war weariness relief by bulding police stations in my cities?