Fundamentalism is too powerful

[Scouse Gits]

FB - glad you are back.

We can argue this point a number of ways. My initial reaction is this. If you feel you need the period in democracy (and have to build UN) then fundy is not too powerful! This lead in technology you prefer to acquire, is achieved under other forms of governments.

On a large world, have you ever played the fundy only game? No democracy allowed!

From 4000BC you set your research goal as democracy. You don't trade for any tech not on this path. (For the turns when you have no advances towards demo - set the goal for navigation - Magellan is important) At demo you immediately build SoL with a store of caravans. Switch to fundy at once and conquer. You will soon be "Supreme" and "No 1 in Science". Your home continent mainly builds caravans for trading, so you enjoy a steady rate of tech/gold, your front line cities churn out the troops and diplos.

After democracy my research goals are Steam Engine, Railroad (Darwin), Leadership, Tactics and Amphibious Warfare (for the port facility - not so much for marines).

So far on 2.42/deity/raging hordes/civs re-starting/large world - the best I have managed is 1780.

Yup - fundamentalism is powerful - but the jury is still out on the "too" bit!
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SG (2)

[Ming]

Again, the big three final governments (fundy, demo, and commie) are all powerful and have their specific uses.
One might say that Democracy is the one that is too powerful. WLYD's to crank up population to max levels coupled with no bribes is deadly. You don't even need the happiness wonders to maintain troops in the field with the amount of trade you can generate. Just keep the lux level high, and go kill everybody.

Commie is powerful because it gives you the best of all worlds... decent trade, martial law, solid production and VET SPIES!

And fundy is powerful for all the reasons already stated.

I think they have done a good job balancing out the modern governments. No matter what your strategy is, there is a government that suits your needs!

[Cookie]

Normaly when I play I rush to Democracy and build Shakespears Theater in a city which can produceatleast 75+ shelds a turn. This means that I can have an army of 74 field units and one defender and so when someone declars war on my i can just got straight to his capital and cripple his civ. But thats just me

CC

[Az]

Cookie :

anyway ...as one has stated at page 1 : commie has the power of the "we love our comrade " . I remember myself just adoring that play ... world map ... take russians
play monarchy .... build lotsa roads with low food settlers ... then change to Communism .. put
luxuries at 40%
science at 40%
tax at 20% .. and then a combination of spy-nukes and AEGIS-defended transports and you march through new york . and do it before appollo program so the space race is far and the AI wont get it's production bonuses.
( the Soviets vs. Americans was one of the best parts of the game , actually ...)

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Prepare to Land !
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited June 17, 2000).]

[SCG]

quote: ... then change to Communism .. put luxuries at 40% science at 40% tax at 30% ..

Thats the spirit Always give 110% in everything you do *grin*

Edit: hey! you caught your mistake while I was posting
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Father Beast]

Gits,
Fundy is powerful even though I come from democratic first. it would be more balanced if I had to stick with a government, but since I can go fundy after milking demo for all it's worth, it gains a lot of power from standing on democracy's shoulders.
Fundy only challenge, eh? looks like fun. I swear, every time civ starts to get the least bit stale, I come here and hear enough suggestions to immerse me for quite a while longer.
maybe it would lose a bit of it's punch if you had a few cities revolt every time you changed to a "lower" form of government. but since you don't get fundy until later on, would it be a "higher"?
I notice that you get republic (but not neccesarily monarchy) on the way to democracy tech for the SOL. do you bypass monarchy and stay a despot until republic and have a few WLTP days to boost pop? or are you a real purist and stay despotic until you get the SOL and go fundy?
Ming,
I know you are the acknowledged master strategist around here, but I can't seem to see the advantage of commie over fundy. I don't get a production or trade hit, and in fact get a boost because of tithes and unit support, and WLD's are easier to arrange without unhappy people. Vet spies are easy to get around with SCG's idea of throwing the newbies at a nearby unit. Martial law? Hah!
I have to agree on reflection that perhaps the democrats immunity to bribes may be a bit much.
but explain about communism being on a par with fundy. just for vet spies?

[tonic]

My V2.42 rules.txt says 10. With so many mods it's perhaps not surprising that "8" would appear in some.

Did someone here say "whatever the rules txt says"? I would have thought that it sets the parameters for your game, no?
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

FB - I do go to Monarchy quickly. If as usual, you have to choose a tech to research not on the path to Monarchy, try Map Making. The early trireme is useful for many things, but the first job is to sail around your continent opening up the whales and fish that were previously unexplored. Little sleazy coastal towns need all the help they can get! In some games the Lighthouse is built. It depends which version of "the sleaze" seems to fit the game best.
In the years from 2500BC, the AI is starting to build wonders, so the game plan is shaped by which wonders can be obtained. The Hanging Gardens is my first choice. If I can also grab the Colossus in the capital, the "Trading Sleaze" will be viable. All trading caravans are re-homed to the celebrating city prior to being sent overseas. This ensures a steady rate of gold and advances when in fundy. The other version is the "Pure Sleaze". Less emphasis on trade but with the Great Wall, Lighthouse or Sun Tzu you have other plans!
I avoid becoming a republic because of the shield support problem when cities are small. You don't want to disband any members of your military with fundy in your sights.
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SG (2)

I would have to say that I don't think Fundy is that powerful. UNLESS you get one wonder, that makes fundamentalism with 80 taxes, 20 luxuries impossible to beat:
GREAT LIBRARY
Tied for second to every tech...
Cash to rushbuy wonders in one turn...
Nobody ever unhappy...
Low corruption...
Pretty much no unit support...
It's just impossible to beat.

[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited June 18, 2000).]

[Kestrel]

I also think "Fundamentalism" in the Original game is too powerful.

That's why I have increased the cost of the Fanatics unit from 2 to 3 in the modified games that I play.

[Scouse Gits]

FB - I have never played CIV 1 - so I can't comment on your question.
The Fundy conquest game would be hard to lose once you have developed strategies for dealing with it. Everyone will tackle the job in a slightly different way. Here are my main tips playing deity/2.42/large world. (Very often "waterworld")
1) Have a large and ruthless navy. Use it! It is not there to kill off enemy ships so much as to destroy enemy cities. Always support the navy with ground troops and diplomats.
2) Discover as much about the world as you can - as early as you can. Map exchanges are a priority.
3) Trade with AI civs on different continents.
4) Build all the happiness wonders. This sounds strange playing in fundy, but there are two reasons: a) Your treasury will increase from the tithes received from Mike's or Bach's. b) By denying the AI the use of these wonders it is harder for them to sustain democratic governments.
5) Conquer to a plan. Don't just send out a boatload of hooligans looking for trouble! Even a poor strategy is better then no plan at all.
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SG (2)

[Father Beast]

Gits,
it sounds as if the fundy only game is the civ2 version of old civ1 "despotic conquest". remember that? that was when you built endless numbers of chariots and catapults and could conquer the world in BC. the guy who wrote about it in the civ1 strategy section said that it's a guaranteed win every time.
is the fundy only the same way? is there much chance of losing?
despotic conquest doesn't work in civ2 because of the high levels of waste in despotism. civ1 didn't have waste, and this method didn't care about corruption. Fundamentalism has a low level of corruption, so it can be used instead of despotism, and there will probably be some science and city improvements, but it seems like almost the same game.

Oh, and Ming?
you haven't responded to how you figure communism and fundamentalism are fairly balanced in the game. are you there?

[Az]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 06-17-2000 05:39 PM Thats the spirit Always give 110% in everything you do *grin* Edit: hey! you caught your mistake while I was posting [This message has been edited by SCG (edited June 17, 2000).]

oops.

[Az]

and I say : hit tundy with that diplomatical penalty REAL hard ! also give the a hard time in finance . because fundy is like the best goverment ever . some1 ever tried the luxury recepy on fundy ? its the best dude .. all that money . you put luxury on 50%-60% and the other on 20%-30% and make that fancy-tech democracy bleed to death in the nuclear fallout of a lifetime!

[Father Beast]

OK, some of you said I can change the unit support in the rules.txt. What else can I change? the happiness? give them a trade hit?
actaully, that wouldn't be bad if I could do that. eliminate the tithes and give it despotic-like trade limitations.
might make it more balanced.