balancing out

yavoon · October 30, 2001, 02:17

I've been messing with the alpha.txt a lil bit lately. and I've decided to tinker with the factions a bit. I wna bring them up to atleast what I perceive as more parity(read:make da weaker ones better).

basically I feel the believers, spartans, and morgan are the weak end of alpha centauri. and its these three I wna change something to. have yall discussed this before? what have ya done? Also a lil trickier cuz I'd like to keep the relative uniqueness of the factions.

I not interested in changing Zak, Deidre, Lal or Yang cuz I think they're fine as is. but if u wna comment on them thats fine too

Blake · October 30, 2001, 05:11

All SMAC factions are balanced. (it's true - if you find some stronger than others it's just your playstyle)

However, if you want to make the AI play better then:
Miriam: Reduce agression (1 -> 0) This makes her more sociable, which I like....
Santiago: Give explore and/or build priorities, this encourages construction of formers....
Morgan: I find morgan is fine as he is....

If you dont want to go with AI factions, then a thing to try is to give every faction a starting former (unit, 1), this avoids the formerless deathtrap so loved by Santiago and Zak, helps Morgan a bit (free support for the former), helps Miriam a lot (she can start on terraforming a good 20 years earlier), free stuff is good for Spartans too, because things are expensive for them. It doesn't help Yang much, because he already builds formers, and also his heaps of support. The benefit is less for Dee, Zak and Lal, because they tend to get CentEco very early (or right away).
Also it removes none of the unique feel of the factions, and allows some interesting choices of early research (you can safely delay CentEco a little bit...).

Black Sunrise · October 30, 2001, 09:14

Quote:

Miriam: Reduce agression (1 -> 0) This makes her more sociable, which I like....

Makes her more likely to trade techs with people, too, which, for her, is a must.
Indra

yavoon · October 30, 2001, 10:52

I don't know how you could be more wrong blake. but its ok, I meet lotsa ppl like you, who think that somehow everything is balanced.

Miriam and Yang have very similar playstyles and there's no way miriam can do what Yang does. its great morgan has +1 econ, but he gives up 1 support early, he can only be size 11, and HE CAN'T POP BOOM. considering how u realize how powerful of an ability pop booming is. look at yang, who also can't, and look at all the bonuses he gets. Yang gets more bonuses than neone else.

oh btw I'm playing SMAC, not smax

. I really didn't wna discuss a huge balance thread, but to think that firaxis made all the races perfectly fair, is frankly, naive.

wheathin · October 30, 2001, 11:13

Ifyou want to enhance Morgan while keeping him in "character", give him a free EB at each base, like Zak's NN. That should make him quite a bit stronger...

Blake · October 30, 2001, 20:01

I've played SMAC for much too long to be naive about anything in it (except maybe some multiplayer). Played to their strengths all the factions shine under the right circumstances, played to their weakenesses, well, eheh. You get what you deserve.

Morgan: Morgan starts with Ind.Base, which makes him one step closer to IndAuto, add the bonus energy per base and he will arrive at IndAuto a good deal sooner than anyone else but Zak (also, Plan.Nets is on the way, and probes are Morgans best friend). Crawlers immediately eliminate the support and growth penalties. Additionaly, you get loads of energy per base tile. This means more bases is better than more population, you dont need to pop-boom, just found bases more densely to get a simialler number of workers.
If you think Morgan is weak, you dont know how to play Morgan. Simple as that. If your probophobic, base packingophobic or Free Marketphobic then Morgan will seem weak.

Miriam: Personally I dont like Miriams faction, I have not played it much. You need to trade tech and make friends, then just roll over your neighbours, never understimate the power of support. The believers do suck on huge worlds, and with tech Stag. This is just a result of being a momentum faction. However the Believers can run FM and popboom.

Spartans: I've played the spartans even less than the Believers, but you can have a lot of fun with easy elite troops. Also the spartans are fully FM capable, and can use full military under FM+Police+Know. They can also pop-boom and have extra police to make that easier.

I'm not going to debate terribly much the strengths of Spartans or Believers, because as a pure builder I shy away from those factions. But they can be truly spectacular on momentum. Both of them can also pop-boom (and we ALL know how strong that is!) both can also get +2 econ.

Balance more comes into issue in relation with map size:
Huge:
Strong: Morgan, Zak, Dee
Medium: Lal, Yang, Santiago
Weak: Miriam

Small:
Strong: Miram, Spartans, Zak, Yang
Medium: Morgan, Dee, Lal

Tech stag+Isolation:
Medium: Morgan, Zak, Dee, Lal, Santiago
Weak: Yang, Miraim

If you want to improve Miraims performance on huge worlds give her IMPUNITY, FUNDIE . Altough realistically she is going to suck in such adverse conditions unless you completely change the faction.

If you still believe Morgan is too weak, or refuse to pack in bases tightly (or refuse to go probe happy), relax the hab restrictions a bit.

There is NOTHING wrong with Spartans, but you could always remove the industry penalty. Keep in mind this would makes the spartans a penaltyless faction.

Zak IS overpowered, but I'm happy to just accept it as that. If you want to hobble him, a support hit would probably do the trick.
Yangs -2 econ hurts him plenty enough. In the worst case yang only has 1 energy to work with until founding a base near a river/energy bonus / planting forest.

Blake · October 30, 2001, 20:29

Just another post.
Some factions are more easily crippled by bad starts than others. In order of robustness:
#1: Zak. The University can just choose CentEco as first tech and be away laughing. On an island? research doc:Flex, in trouble? Nonlinear Mathematics.
#2: Dee. Already starts with CentEco, and can found a good deal more bases than other factions before drone worries. Hunt worms for pearls&army and crank up labs for research. Dee is spectacular on huge worlds, even with little fungus.
#3: Morgan. Free energy per base is INVALUABLE if your starting terrain sucks. In the worst case morgan can just found more bases to get more energy. This means more research, and sooner to the goody techs. Also an overlooked advantage is starting with SynthArmour. This can stop the Hive/Believer scout patrol rushes dead. (admitadly a scout patrol rush generally seems like a pretty illfated endeavor, but beggars cant be choosers)
#4: Lal. The Peacekeepers have no real benefit, in a bad start they dont grow quickly enough or get to IndEcon early enough to take full advantage of the talents. Biogenetics is a nice tech, though.
#5: Spartans. When isolated the Spartans have to rely on their own research, infrastructure is a bit slower than the others, and they have no real builder bonus. Altough losses to worms are a lot lower, thanks to the high morale. They are also one step closer to Doc:Flex in case of isolation.
#6: Yang. Poor Yangs energy is so pathetic that if he cant trade he can be doomed to stagment, sure you can sprawl bases over half the world, but what good are all your bases when the noodles drop by, or Zak rolls up with Fusion reactor. Stagmentation can be a real problem with the Hive.
#7: {{Drum Roll}}Miriam. The Believers, in the worst possible case they start isolated on a continent, CentEco is a good twenty years away, doc flex hundreds of years away... with a bit of luck they might do okay. But without an early conquest (or tech trade) they will always be behind. (Altough with Demo/FM they can easily overtake the Hive, -2 econ hurts more than -2 research.)

The moral of the story? Huge dry maps, isolation, blind reserach and tech stag can cause some factions to majorly out perform others.
On a more typical start they all have oppurtunities to use their strengths. Steps can be taken to make the factions more well rounded (you could say 'balanced'), but that makes the factions less distinctive.

yavoon · October 30, 2001, 20:38

haha, I know perfectly well how to play morgan. I agree, its amazing that u play the game that long and are naive to things like balance. then agian, I'm also confused because u all but make my point for me a few times, only your conclusion is different.

either way, u can think wutever backwards things you want. I'm not saying morgan is weak in any absolute way. surely they have strengths, and surely smac is a very large game in scope that u can through play/luck/indifference makeup lotsa time.

but when it comes down to it, morgan is weaker then the strong factions. its just a fact. u aren't gna impress me by giving me some two sentance strat advice, expecting that I haven't heard it before and somehow it will change my mind. cuz I have heard it before, and it won't change my mind.

yavoon · October 30, 2001, 20:51

since I hear its popular to make two posts now, I guess I should too.

u r correct in saying that vastly altering the starting conditions changes who has the upper hand. that u can make extreme conditions to give different ppl upper hands, I prefer moderated conditions, and thats wut I play. you can say I'm ignoring the extreme, and ur right, I am. but thats ok.

u r incorrect about most of ur assemsnets, like normal. morgan I pack my bases extremely tightly and make retarded amts of probes.

spartans are weak, they aren't nearly the early agression faction miriam or yang are. which is ironic cuz the only ppl they can outbuild is miriam. I'd say yang, and indeed it might be close, but yang can usually power by them w/ his net of +4 industry over the spartans. with spartan u basically rely on perfect tactics, which u can do against the computer, never lose a unit. but his morale is easily negated by mismatching, since early armor can't handle early weapons in the open field. the only impressive exception is some uber early unity rover rush w/ santiago. which of course u can do well w/ miriam too.

btw I'm thinkin of giving santiago +3 morale. which does one special thing, a trained unit out of a command center, that then goes to a monolith is elite. atleast I'm pretty sure, been a while since I played santiago. neway, this would give santiago a gigantic early advantage, in that they can make early elite infantry(is there nothing cooler?)

I don't know what to do about morgan

he's hard, maybe I just overpower him and see when I shoot past my mark. its hard to overpower a builder tho, cuz ur up against zak, who is like builder god.

I was thinking something like +3 support for miriam, or something, that'd be cool to play even. net effect of relieving miriams need for clean units for a very longass time. and it wouldn't really make her ne more powerful early(as how many bases are past size 4 early?)

yavoon · October 30, 2001, 21:48

omg u reminded me. I wna put SAM the anti aircraft ability lower on the tech tree. for just that reason, getting noodles earlier than someone else can be abnormally devastating.

Blake · October 31, 2001, 02:57

When your not worrying about high populations Morgans benefits easily outweigh his penalties. 100 starting cash goes a long way to getting early rec tanks / commons. Then when you switch to FM your getting about 2 more energy per base than a normal freemarketeer, and when you add wealth and a bit of commerce you probably get about 4 more energy per base. This easily outweighs the -1 support.

Morgans ONLY real weakness is the inability to pop-boom.
Unfortunately pop-booming is grossly unbalancing, so I suppose a faction unable to do something grossly unbalancing is a weak faction. In SMAX Morgan can quite easily pop-boom. So SMAC Morgan is weaker than SMAX morgan.

Ufortunately, the only way you are going to be able to remedy the inability to pop-boom is to give Morgan the ability to pop-boom. Such is the way with unbalancing features (everyones gotta have access to them). A few solutions:
Change aversion away from PLANNED. Simple. Morgan can then boom.
Meddle with the Alpha.txt to create alternate routes of pop-boom. One combination could be:
Demo -> +1 Growth (for +3 total)
Wealth -> +1 Growth.
So a faction could then either pop-boom by Demo/Planned or Demo/Wealth, or Hive+Planned+Wealth
Or, the best solution, remove pop-booming all together by reducing planned or demo to +1 growth.

Okay, so I admit Morgan is weak. But only in SMAC, and only on the basis of the unbalancing pop-boom. And the only way to remedy that is to give morgan access to pop-boom, one way or another

Anything else will either make him too powerfull in non-pop booming situations, or still too weak when pop-booming is easy.

Believers and Spartans are weak Builder factions, they can both beat the snot out of traditional builders if they get in early with armed units. Giving them more warmonger bonuses (support, morale) is not going to change the weak builder aspect

, you would be better of giving them bonuses to make them better able to survive in a builder game.
For Believers, Impunity, Fundie, Interest, 0 comes to mind, -2 research hurts quite enuff, without it being deducted twice. Interest, 0 is +1 energy per base, as 'donations' or something.
You may want to remove the PLANET penalty too. Makes FM just a little easier to run for them.

For the spartans, remove the Industry penalty (this makes them a penaltyless faction!). Or you could give something ridiculus like +3 police, for real easy drone control.

But Spartans and Believers are Momentum factions, they dont play on the same playing field as builders, so comparison is very difficult, it depends entirely on how you like to play

.

Blake · October 31, 2001, 03:08

Oh yeah, and continuing the multi post tradition, everyone is weak compared to Zak. The real obvious solution is to cripple Zaky a bit, -1 support would hurt him a bit, or take away some of his research bonuses (for example, remove the +2 research, but keep the netnodes).

The universities overpowerness is mainly on the basis of getting crawlers earlier, when Zak snags the VW he gets that nasty free netnode+free holo theatre per base combo, which is worth about 120 minerals per 30 mineral CP. So another idea is to change his free facility, prehaps to bio-lab, or research-lab, or remove it altogether and give something like +1 labs per base. Whats the deal with Zak being the only faction getting a free facility anyway

? Now I think about it removing that free netnode would fix Zak's overpowered problem, he would need another bonus and maybe relaxed penalties, though.

DavidByron · October 31, 2001, 03:24

Couldn't Morgan pop-boom with Democracy/Creche/Golden Age?

Blake · October 31, 2001, 03:38

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidByron
Couldn't Morgan pop-boom with Democracy/Creche/Golden Age?

In SMAX, Yes
in *SMAC, No

Anyway, thats what I meant by SMAX morgan is stronger than SMAC morgan.

* In Mac SMAC the GA's actually work properly, so Morgan CAN GA pop-boom in Mac Smac.

DavidByron · October 31, 2001, 03:42

Ok, its been a while since I only had SMAC. I remember something about that. Guess they never fixed it......

Time to buy the expansion maybe?

Flubber · October 31, 2001, 08:51

Yavoon

I have heard the unbalanced factions argument so many times and I remain largely unconvinced. You cite the spartans as a "weak faction" while not 6 months ago i was in a thread where there were a bunch of people telling me they were overpowered since they can boom, FM AND hit you with superior troops.

I believe everyone is entitled to their opinions but I have come to the conclusion that the factions are relatively balanced. Sure there are circumstances which tend to the strengths of one over the other but that will always be the case if they have different attributes. and Yavoon . . . simply stating your asserion that "Morgan is weak, its a fact" is hardly a strong argument

The proof as to the balanced nature comes from these boards. EVERY faction has its champions. If you posted a thread as to the strongest faction, the answers would be all across the board and you would find that some experienced players would be choosing factions you dub as weak. Personally I think that the believers are weak but that might be because they do not fit my personal playstyle. . . because there are people with differing views.

The only factions that I accept as being overpowered are the aliens. Anyone else is up for debate IMHO. I will even defend the Cult and am having my second go-round with them in MP as we speak.

big_canuk · October 31, 2001, 09:28

All factions have their strengths and uses. All people are entitled to their opinions without being lableled naive.

Cases in point:

Believers: Chosen by cousLee(one of the best smac players of all-time), in FW2, as a partner faction for the UoP, on a large world. You can *bet* this decision has caused the 'poly and cgn teams to alter their early game tech bees and build priorities. In this case believers can go cash, and UoP can go research.

Spartans: At some point soon, I really want to play the spartans to get those elite crawlers, and especially formers. Should make formers maybe 25% more effective and crawlers a bit easier to work with, making up for the industry penalty and more. And again, one cannot overvalue the metagame aspect of affecting other players priorites, because you have the ability to do just about anything as the Spartans.

Morgan: His great weakness, is that he is so good in MP, that all the factions gang up on him. If he gets to the CV early enough, it is *bye* to all the other factions.

Blake: He's prolly the most un-naive person here! :-D

yavoon · October 31, 2001, 11:23

ahh flubber, but I stated several times that I DON'T want this to be a thread about balance. where a buncha nutcases come out of the woodwork and feel its their sworn duty to flame me for my opinions.

asto the tired and obvious argument by blake that santiago is a great "momentum" faction. this is like spewing. deidre is a better momentum faction, she gets mindworms early, can go police state w/o getting her research raped. and like I sed, mismatching really negates the supremeness of early morale. I don't know how any of you can say that miriam can hang next to say Zak, or even Lal. One of the easiest ways to die as miriam to anyone but a computer is early. 30 years in u got jack **** for tech, ur basically running around w/ scout patrols, and ur formers might be finishing. and the amt of time it takes u to get up to impact rovers and probes(the most common really early attack method). other factions can almost literally be in the stratosphere. how is that so god damn condusive to being a great momentum faction? ur correct in saying that the time u get to crawlers makes a huge difference, since it lets u start pooling minerals to build sps, and in general start rakin in the big production.

but see, I'm being pulled by all your evil off. I didn't start this thread to argue with a buncha hippies over hw they think "life is fair."

oh btw, I was thinkin once miriam gets going and can settle down her -2 research. she would be much nicer, her main problem as I see it, is she gets hopelessly behind early, w/ that 10 year thing, and the -2 research, and there's so many techs she needs early. human brain togo fundie, nonlinear to go impact, plan networks to go probes, ind automation cuz she's playing smac

, she might even wants mobility to get command centers(steals the rover chasis from the probe team), I'd say loyalty, but thats really really really stretching it, oh and of course cent. eco. if u dont get linear, ur a builder faction for the first lotsa years. and now ur in deep ****, cuz u sure as hell can't keep up w/ ne of the good builders in the game. Miriam in a nutshell is a momentum faction w/ a slow start, great combo eh?

neway I was thinkin even drop miriam's support to +1 and give her some kind of another early start boost, I'm gna have to think about it. I still like giving santiago +3 morale

. oh and blake, u sed if I took away industry penalty(which I wont do), that santiago would be penaltiless, u forget she can't go wealth, which is almost as annoying as not being able to go planned or demo.

oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg

how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot

ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?

oh blake, good ideas on weakaning the uni, I'll think on it=]

yavoon · October 31, 2001, 11:29

ahh flubber, but I stated several times that I DON'T want this to be a thread about balance. where a buncha nutcases come out of the woodwork and feel its their sworn duty to flame me for my opinions.

asto the tired and obvious argument by blake that santiago is a great "momentum" faction. this is like spewing. deidre is a better momentum faction, she gets mindworms early, can go police state w/o getting her research raped. and like I sed, mismatching really negates the supremeness of early morale. I don't know how any of you can say that miriam can hang next to say Zak, or even Lal. One of the easiest ways to die as miriam to anyone but a computer is early. 30 years in u got jack **** for tech, ur basically running around w/ scout patrols, and ur formers might be finishing. and the amt of time it takes u to get up to impact rovers and probes(the most common really early attack method). other factions can almost literally be in the stratosphere. how is that so god damn condusive to being a great momentum faction? ur correct in saying that the time u get to crawlers makes a huge difference, since it lets u start pooling minerals to build sps, and in general start rakin in the big production.

but see, I'm being pulled by all your evil off. I didn't start this thread to argue with a buncha hippies over hw they think "life is fair."

oh btw, I was thinkin once miriam gets going and can settle down her -2 research. she would be much nicer, her main problem as I see it, is she gets hopelessly behind early, w/ that 10 year thing, and the -2 research, and there's so many techs she needs early. human brain togo fundie, nonlinear to go impact, plan networks to go probes, ind automation cuz she's playing smac

, she might even wants mobility to get command centers(steals the rover chasis from the probe team), I'd say loyalty, but thats really really really stretching it, oh and of course cent. eco. if u dont get linear, ur a builder faction for the first lotsa years. and now ur in deep ****, cuz u sure as hell can't keep up w/ ne of the good builders in the game. Miriam in a nutshell is a momentum faction w/ a slow start, great combo eh?

neway I was thinkin even drop miriam's support to +1 and give her some kind of another early start boost, I'm gna have to think about it. I still like giving santiago +3 morale

. oh and blake, u sed if I took away industry penalty(which I wont do), that santiago would be penaltiless, u forget she can't go wealth, which is almost as annoying as not being able to go planned or demo.

oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg

how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot

ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?

oh blake, good ideas on weakaning the uni, I'll think on it=]

T-hawk · October 31, 2001, 12:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
Just another post.
Some factions are more easily crippled by bad starts than others. In order of robustness:

Don't forget another aspect of starting - pod popping. There are some variables here too.

Pluses:
Deirdre. Duh. First mind worm capture guaranteed and you're off to the races. Same when you get to sea pods.
Zak. Can immediately use alien artifacts.
Spartans. Morale definitely helps against the mind worms, and getting a materials pod helps against the -INDUSTRY.

Mixed:
Yang. It makes a HUGE difference for him how much money he gets from the pods and killing worms. Getting a lot can offset his --ECONOMY for a while. But if he gets unlucky, or if pod scattering is off, he can be stuck without the money to even switch to Police State/Planned until like 2160!
Miriam. Popping terraforming pods (special resources, monolith, farm, forest, river) will greatly help against her late terraforming. Commlink or tech pods help much too. But if she gets an artifact, it can be a LONG time until she can use it, and -PLANET hurts against mindworms.
Lal. The usual for him.

Minuses:
Morgan. He's advised to be careful pod popping early, as he doesn't need the money, and with his -SUPPORT losing the independent Scout can really hurt early exploration. Wait till you get rovers. And FM hurts against mindworms too.

Hint for anyone who can capture mindworms: Turn on the Confirm Combat Odds preference. You don't get the confirm box until after the capture attempt fails -- in which case you can cancel the attack, and instead try capturing a different mindworm or try again next turn!

big_canuk · October 31, 2001, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by yavoon
oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg

how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot

ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?

I'm sorry Yavoon, i guess I didn't make myself very clear.

On the Believer's and UoP, your point is exactly the one I was trying to make. The Believer's have their place. A partnership with the UoP is one of them.

On the crawlers issue: elite crawlers are not a big asset. It makes the "crawler crawl" a bit easier getting them out to the harvest points, and to rehome to new bases. It makes cashing them to SPs a bit easier. The big advantage for Sparta is elite formers(with 2 moves instead of 1). They don't have to waste a move getting to the square to terraform. They don't have to build roads ahead, so the terraforming fleet can move in and build. And crawlers and formers to not have the ability to be trained (or to be monolithed). That means the only faction that can make them is the Spartans.

bc

Flubber · October 31, 2001, 13:13

Quote:

Originally posted by T-hawk

Hint for anyone who can capture mindworms: Turn on the Confirm Combat Odds preference. You don't get the confirm box until after the capture attempt fails -- in which case you can cancel the attack, and instead try capturing a different mindworm or try again next turn!

T-hawk-- Thats a great idea and I have switched worm targets to get a successful capture IIRC, but unfortunately it just does not seem to work if you try capturing the same worm by different units on that turn. I remember playing as the Cult and encountering a worm while running +3 Planet IIRC. I had four units that could strike at the worm so I thought it would be an easy capture. I almost always play with odds ON so I tried it with each of the four units. Each one did not capture the worm so I got battle odds each time. I ended up killing the darn worm.

I have no proof of this but it seems that once a worm decides to fight for its life, that particular worm will continue to fight regardless of how many units attempt capture on that turn. I am not certain if the resistant worm may be captured on subsequent turns.

Yavoon

As far as I can see, you are the one doing the flaming here but I'm just a hippy nutcase so you can discount everything I say.

Seriously though . . . how can anyone talk about balancing the factions without discussing whether or not they are balanced in the first place ??

OH well, your sarcasm is somewhat entertaining even if your premise is flawed and not really supported by anything YOU have said.

T-hawk · October 31, 2001, 13:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber
I have no proof of this but it seems that once a worm decides to fight for its life, that particular worm will continue to fight regardless of how many units attempt capture on that turn. I am not certain if the resistant worm may be captured on subsequent turns.

That's correct, based on my observance. A resistant worm CAN indeed be captured later -- IF it moves. That is, the map coordinate of the target is checked against or used as a random seed against your mindworm capture percentage. Furthermore, a particular square always has the same result for any wild (non-Planetmind) mindworm.

BTW, wild worms WILL attack a stack that consists of both captive native and non-native units, and in that case the captive native unit can be chosen as the defender. Note that this applies to Isles carrying Alien Artifacts -- wild IoDs will attack them.

big_canuk · October 31, 2001, 14:25

Quote:

Originally posted by T-hawk

BTW, wild worms WILL attack a stack that consists of both captive native and non-native units, and in that case the captive native unit can be chosen as the defender. Note that this applies to Isles carrying Alien Artifacts -- wild IoDs will attack them.

Ahhh.. Now why didn't you post this 3 weeks ago. In a recent MP turn, I got greedy and popped a pod with only 1 movement point left with an IOD. No prob, I thought, if its another IOD it won't attack. Imagine my dismay, when my IOD, with AA on board went to the bottom. I kind of thought it was because of the AA. Thanks, now I know so.

yavoon · October 31, 2001, 15:19

have u been rading my posts flubber? I do indeed support my assertions. and my validation that I don't want a buncha ppl coming in and flaming me for my opinions is that I'd prefer if u disagreed with me, u just move on. rather than feel it ur sworn duty to flame me. I think its hypocracy that u can't see the balance differences, but I"m ok w/ that. u all talk bout how abusive pop booming is, but are too ignorant to notice that a faction that can't pop boom might be weak.

u talk about how amazing crawlers are, and can't realize that someone who can't get to them fast enuff is in effect far behind.

its really quite funny. this seeming lack of analytical ability.

as to t-hawk, ur right t hawk, I am NOT talking about partnership games. as to whether u can invent a scenario where miriam is useful, tugging on zak's coat tails is definitely one of them. but honestly, I'd still rather be hive.

all the opposing side seems to be able to do is spit 2 line strat suggestions. like some newbie. OMG u mean build bases close together and morgan is ok? I wasn't under the impression that morgan was the only faction that could build bases close together. thank u for clearing that up. I have had definite substance in my posts, along w/ sarcasm and a lil flaming. but its because I'm kinda depressed that I didnt get to talk about the changes I wnted to. and instead had to run around defending myself to a buncha unintelligent one line thoughts, that unfortunately carry no analytical substance. besides blake, who actually had cool things to say.

so I apologize to blake for atleast some of what he sed was cool

Flubber · October 31, 2001, 17:06

Yavoon

At least you are consistent in your inconsistency. For example you talk of the importance of a pop boom like it was the be all and end all but one faction that can boom (Spartans) is on your weak list while one that cannot (Smac-Hive) is on your strong list. With Morgan you never consider his abilities to get to +2 Econ while running Demo/Green/Wealth and pick up a green army at the same time or the massive research possible with Demo/FM/Knowledge. Morgan is a money faction and one that can get crawlers about as quick as Zak and the initial cash means faster rush-builds. The suggestion to pack in the bases was there because (it bears repeating)Morgan has poor support, gets more energy from the base square and has lower pop limits-- but you just slam someone for mentioning it. Man if you get uppity any time someone points out something you happen to know . . . well lets just say its not very friendly.

As for flaming . . I have not done that and do not intend to start. This board has been very polite. You are relatively new on this board (at least under this identity) so posters may point out some more basic stuff that you already know. I find it interesting that you feel the need to "defend " yourself if someone expresses a contrary opinion and in fact have moved to complaining about the fact that anyone did.

My point is a a simple one. Although I personally cannot play all factions equally well and am worse at some than others, I see that as a function of me. It is not necessarily the faction that is weak --its just that a player may not be particularly skilled with that faction. So when someone such as yourself believes that a certain faction is "weak" (or in your case 3 of them) then I think you have to also consider the practice and opinions of other players. The Spartans for instance have some very strong advocates that believe they are one of the strongest factions, so excuse me if I don't just accept your analysis which seemed to be that industry penalty+ no wealth= weak.

I am curious. . . yavoon, have you played much multiplayer? Because I thought I knew a fair bit about this game until I started playing MP. Win or lose you see a lot of ways that factions can be used differently. Perhaps you have played a ton of MP in which case it would be interesting what the experience of the various factions have been in your games.

The debate rages as to balance, but for the Smac 7 I see reasonably good balance there. I would play any of them except Miriam (since I have never figured her out). I tend to think that the factions are reasonably balanced on a standard average world. Go very big or very small and the picture can change radically.

yavoon · October 31, 2001, 17:33

again two line strat quips. I thank u so much flubber for doing it over and over. why do I have to respond to this? it must be the sickness of my pride. ok lets go.

first hive, yes hive can't pop boom, but when u look at wut a hive running police/plannd/wealth can do, its prolly the most severely brutal faction in smac. so its not that I didn't take pop booming into account, or that I consider it the be all and end all.

but then u take someone like morgan, who starts slow w/ his minus support. can't pop boom, isn't good at momentum. wut is he to do? he will INEVITABLY be behind the pop booming builder factions, his support hit takes him out of the momentum faction race. and his size 11 restriction hurts him even further, that is once he gets to size 11, like 50 years behind everyone else already having gotten there.

how many times do I have to say I'm not impressed by your one thought strategy quips, like somehow I'm gna go OMG U MEAN MORGAN CAN GO DEMO/GREEN/WEALTH I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. plz

ur deluding yourself. how much bonus does +2 econ give to specialists flubber? thats wut I thot. all this great talk about 10 specialists/base and boreholes, both of which reduce the effect of +2 econ. and really make it mostly an early game consideration.

btw, in my book flubber, u have flamed me, don't make me bring out quotes of u mocking me, or taking cheap shots at me, cuz I have enuff things to worry about. the largest balancing factor in smac is undoubtedly its scope. the starting positions can very greatly, luck/skill/indifference(like I've already sed) can makeup for a lot. but that doesn't mean everything is fair. or things can't be thot on and improved. I really tire of defending such weak attacks as yours. and since it seems u don't read my posts, repetition might as well suit me. giving one liner strategy quips WILL NOT impress me in the least. nor will appealing to some ambiguous authority. cuz frankly if u can't see the differeing values of the factions, then u indeed aren't worthy of authority.

Avenoct · October 31, 2001, 18:26

Yavoon, you are truly entertaining, if enraging, to read.

Maybe a misconception you have is that you control threads you start?
People, some of the brightest at Apolyton, came out to try to help discuss this topic. If they don't address your topic, maybe restate more clearly? I think that the topic has been addressed. Some suggestions for balancing the factions you feel are unbalanced have been made. Let go man/woman, it's going to be o.k.

-Smack

Flubber · October 31, 2001, 18:44

A few points

1. I reread my posts and no flames. The sarcasm was yours. I have disputed your arguments and that is all.

2. In a bug free game (SMAX), Morgan can pop boom relatively easily with Golden Ages ( and I know you probably knew that too). Other than that you will probably respond to any argument with your sarcastic indication that you knew that fact. people could do the same to you-- OMG MORGAN HAS SUPPORT ISSUES AND A LOWER POP LIMIT. There, I guess I made my first effective statement since it was in your debating style LOL.

3. I repeat my question as to whether you have played much multiplayer. It is a learning experience for most players as it continues to be for me. I believe that the game has sufficient complexity that the learning never stops. You may have played a ton of MP and come to your beliefs from that experience.

4. To me the only true test for whether factions are balanced or not is in MP since the AI is idiotic. Since there is no way to quantify the different attributes we could argue in circles forever. I won't bother with this topic further since as you have said, you really don't want to hear from anyone who disagrees with you.

WhiteElephants · October 31, 2001, 21:37

As annoying as the way yavoon chooses to type, I have to agree with him that not all factions were created equal. BUT throw in three or more human players into the mix and anything goes no matter if you choose the strongest faction or the weakest.