balancing out

[yavoon]

quite good point white elephants, that is sometimes ignored.although I meant it implicitly when I sed scope, I did not say it.

the free for all nature of games can generally lead to just about anyone winning, which is much more evident in smaller games that can be played 1v1. though still, all things equal, the stronger factions have better chances. I was probably misguided in my attempt to guide the thread. but as u can see I had something I wnted to talk about, and no1 talked about it, w/ the exception of blake, and only after some stirring.flubber was of zero help, and really only aggrivated it with his forum nazi reflex action to someone saying something contrary to him.

I obviously can not stop the thread from going in any direction, as is observationally true, but its important to piont out I didnt want this. I know on every forum there are old forum lurkers who just luv their old held views, and jump like rabid heyenas on anyone not in line. I was hoping to avoid them(flubber) but I did not. flubber is amusing I guess in a way, but in another more accurate way, he's not. perhaps it is my fault, I should have taken more care to word my original post.

[yavoon]

also to make one distinction on flubber, its NOT that I don't want to hear from ppl who disagree, its that I don't want to hear from rabid forum nazi's swooping down with cat call 'EVERYTHING' SBALLANCCED GO AWAY.'

thats wut I wnted to avoid, cuz taht leads to the thread we have here, as opposed to wut I had hoped for, a discussion on changes. in that context yer welcome to disagree with me to your hearts content.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by yavoon in that context yer welcome to disagree with me to your hearts content.

Shouldn't that have been, "...to YER hearts content"?

Yer slipping yavoon, yer slipping.

[yavoon]

slipping? I'm practically fallen. if neone might care, these are the changs I thot I'd try out when I got the chance.

giving santiago +3 morale and giving Miriam free recreation commons.

unfortunately right now I'm just sitting at my computer writing papers.

[wheathin]

Far be it for me to suggest that Yavoon may have mis-spoken. I think, rather, he was simply imprecise, although the question raised is interesting:

Given a specific map type, in SP, how should the various factions be re-balanced to that map type to maximize the AI's ability to play them?

I think we all agree that certain maps (smaller, more land, lots of pods) favor momentum factions, while others (bigger, isolated continents, fewer pods) favor builder factions. Some options clearly benefit some factions: more fungus favors Gaians, tech-on-conquest favors Spartans and Beleivers, etc. While in MP human players can take some of this into account (and a human player in SP looks on it as a challenge), in an SP game the AI may just be hobbled, resulting in a game where instead of 6 challenging opponents you might only have 3 or 4 because the others have been crippled by the game parameters.

So, the real issue is, if I (or Yavoon) wanted to play on a map other than standard, what should be done to re-balance the factions in SP and give the AI a better chance.

Is that what you had in mind, yavoon?

[yavoon]

hrrm? I think I sed earlier that I play generally standardized settings. I do some things to help the computer, have lotsa land, make it rainy. but my map size is mostly standard, some small some large.

my native life is almost always avg, tho I spose rare MIGHT help the computer a lil? I just find rare a lil too weenie for me. I try not to make a map for a certain playstyle, as I think its cheating the strategy portion of the game. ie. I dont play huge, arid, rare native life, pod only at landing sites, if I wna be a builder faction.

I believe earlier I also stated that while I recognize balance is changed somewhat(probably less than u think) on the extreme types of maps, that I infact am not taking those into consideration.

but thank you for asking.

[knowhow2]

Wow this thread is like Christmas day for a five year old!

first of all, yavoon, I'm sorry, but I have no idea how to help you with your problem (problem being how to re-balance factions).

But I have to say that Spartans CAN'T impossibly be the one of the weekest factions. A question: what do you consider to be the greatest kind of victory anyone could attain in SMAC? To me it is The Ascent to Transcendence. Guess which year the brilliant minds in Apolyton managed achieve it in, 2179. It took them ONLY 79 turns, SEVENTYNINE !!!!!
Guess which faction? Not the UoP, not the PK, not Hive BUT the Spartans. Although it was done in a small map, I hardly think it would make that big different on a standard map.

And one last thing. It's about Miriam. You don't have to do your own research. Your submissive will do for you. She is perfect against AI in any Maps as long as she don't get stuck on a small island without neighbours, but will suck greatly against 6 human opponents. Conquest, conquest and conquest.

-knowhow2

[yavoon]

well first the gaians beat you, isnt there a gaian transcend in 2172 or something? u also must realize, and I'm sure it was mere oversight on your part. that I have spoken several times on the extreme types of maps being played, and the spartan transcend happened I think on tiny map w/ rare native life, I forget the other settings.

u also must realize that the spartans can take extreme advantage of the stupid ai, whereas to fool u on their strength. for u can go w/ the spartans and not lose a unit almost the entire game. negating spartans huge weakness, replacing units. which of course is completely unrealistic against a better ai, or a real opponent. which can really hurt an attacker even w/ inferior technology.

I have but one thought on the believers, they are a slow starting momentum faction. how can that be good? they get centauri ecology at like 2120, they get planetary networks in like the 50's. so now u can steal tech, but wut if yer next to builders and u can't steal nonlinear? believers need luck to boost their start, they need lotsa energy credits to buy tech, or they need to find a buncha free techs, they need some whirlwind diplo trading, or something, nething. or u end not being able to mount an offensive until like 100 years in, in which case zak is all over ur inferior tech ass.

thanks for input tho

[DavidByron]

Uh.... I transcended in AD2168.
(toot toot!)

I could probably do better by a few years now. The parameters were completely rigged and this was part of the challenge. It was also a difference of play styles between Zsozso (with the previous 2172 record) and I. His style was based on cooperation and building, mine totally ignored alliances and went for a massive number of small cities (Builder vs Borg). I beleive Borg play style is far more efficient ... its just very dull because there's a lot of details to want attention.

[yavoon]

quite true byron tho I think u made a very small map am I right? although this may not be cheating, I always considered the challenge only using the ingame map changing options(ie size/mts/water/native life/rainyness) to be the true spirit.

not to like dig on u or nething.

[DavidByron]

No you could use any game options you wanted short of editing stuff. There's a long discussion about precisely what is considered legal on the 2172 thread.

[yavoon]

I know, as is wut was in my last post. "it may not have been cheating"

I was givnig u my view of the spirit of the challeneg, not saying u broke ne specific challenge rules. as is again backed up by my saying its not a dig at u. man I have the hardest time finding the right words w/ u guys.

=]

[Basil]

Yavoon:
I'm not clear on whether you're looking for:
1) Improvements to the three factions when the AI is playing them.
2) Improvements to the factions when a human is playing them in SP.
3) Improvements to the factions when a human is playing them in MP.

I wouldn't change any of them for human SP play.

For Morgan I would remove the -1 support penalty. I don't think that would bring him completely up to par with the University and the Peacekeepers, but it would go a significant way (especially for the AI), and it doesn't change the fundamental spirit of the faction, at least for me.

For the Spartans I really don't know. I agree with you: I find them weak as well (although that could be due to my play style; they are horribly suited to me - I'm a hybrid with builder leanings). They are very good at a game-opening rush, but fade after that. But I can't think of any fix that fits them. If you give them +1 support it would certainly help the AI play them. You might want to tweak their AI interests as well - they are the only faction whose priorities are Discover/Conquer, and it really doesn't work well.

I find the Believers balanced under the default game settings, which includes pod scattering on and blind research. If you turn pod scattering off and allow directed research then yes, they'd be in bad shape. Maybe reduce the Research penalty to -1 if you make either of these changes (since both of these changes increase the importance of Research)? That preserves their relative strengths and weaknesses. If the AI is running them you might want to change their AI priorities from Conquer/Explore (their default) to, perhaps, Build/Conquer (same as Yang).

Incidentally, I think the Believers would do fine in a game with 7 human-controlled factions. It's almost certain you'll be able to deal with one of the other 6 for tech, and once you get probes and ships you're home free.

A general balancing change I make is to give a -1 Support modifier to Free Market (the SE setting) if I am playing with pod scattering off, since pods are more important to non-marketeers. (This change is obviously linked to the change for Morgan, above.)

[knowhow2]

Just wanna make a comment on the 2179 thing.... I wasn't actually sure about that year so I don't mind being corrected .... but anyway wasn't the latest thing still with the Spartans but just with laser weapon (instead of impact) because of the high morale? I probably should go and look it up but I'm just to lazy .

2168, is this official?

[yavoon]

well I play very limited MP w/ my friends. I'm certainly not balancing them to help myself against the ai. If for no other reason then I don'tplay those factions very often. I'm just balancing them cuz I think they are not as strong as the others. whether this be against the computer or another player.

I'm hesitant to ake -1 support away, but i assure u it crossed my mind. as its very annoying. for now I decided to try and give morgan impunity wealth. at first I don't like giving impunities cuz it locks ppl into certain SE choices, but when u consider how often morgan will pick wealth anyway, it didn't seem so bad.

just as a note, I play w/ podscattering and directed research. I guess I like stuff to do early? I'd play w/ blind but it feels so much more unstrategic that it annoys me.

as for the believers, which faction won't have social psych and ccent ecology at 2120? then believers race probes, which fo crouse is on the way to the virtual world(the best secret project) and industrial automation(where everyone beelines). so I think its very likely the believers simply won't have any techs they can leverage in a trade. and relying on probes to have tech can get quite unreliable.

I think i will change the ai's priorities like that, thanks. u know if there's anyway to change the bonuses given at transcend? or would I have to go around and change every faction but my own to give the ai like a massive support rating or something?

[Barry Brenesal]

Originally posted by knowhow2
Wow this thread is like Christmas day for a five year old!

But I have to say that Spartans CAN'T impossibly be the one of the weekest factions. A question: what do you consider to be the greatest kind of victory anyone could attain in SMAC? To me it is The Ascent to Transcendence. Guess which year the brilliant minds in Apolyton managed achieve it in, 2179. It took them ONLY 79 turns, SEVENTYNINE !!!!!
Guess which faction? Not the UoP, not the PK, not Hive BUT the Spartans. Although it was done in a small map, I hardly think it would make that big different on a standard map.
-knowhow2

With respect, I think you supplied the counter to your own theory: on a small map. Small maps favor factions that can produce stronger armies, more of 'em, and more advanced. On a smaller map, both the Spartans and the Believers tend to rule. On large maps, the Spartans can luck into a position of dominance, but just as easily fall afoul of Yang's greater production capabilities or Deidre's mindworms. Given long enough, Morgan's money or Lal's gradual buildup can overwhelm 'em all, too.

[Blackavar]

I've read the posts in this thread, and would like to share mine most infinate wisdem on this topic. There's a lot of people
saying that the factions aren't balanced against each other, and that you should fix these imbalances by correcting each faction's weaknesses - giving the Spartans no industry penalty, giving the believers impunity fundie, all that.

Some of you even seem to be complaining that the different
factions don't work so well on different types of maps.

I think I have to bring in a metaphor, here - the classic war game triad of infantry, cavalry, and long-range weaponry. Each of these three types of forces are strong and weak in different ways, and strong against one other but weak against the next.

Infantry beats cavalry, it has staying power but is slow.
Cavalry beats long-range because it can hit them before it's shot.
Long-range beats infantry, because infantry can't get out of
the way fast enough.

The smac factions are like this - strong on one aspect, weak on another; on balance this means that they all interact fairly equally except where the map is designed to specifically complement one strength. A seven-sided triad is a hard thing to make, and I think the Smac designers did a damned good job.

Rock-paper-scissors. Let's make it so that the scissors are stronger and won't get hurt so much by the rock - let's turn the paper into cardboard so that it can't be cut so easily. Let's turn the rock into a flint arrowhead so it can destroy the paper.

No! The triad makes the game strategically fun. There are weaknesses you can exploit, strenghts you have to do a run around.. and weaknesses of your own you have to nurse, strenghts of your own you can utilize.

Each faction is unique - and darned it all, I like a good weakness to keep me on my toes. The only thing about 'balancing' I might like is to make the Believers impune to that darned double-sided research hit - but I have to admit that's my bias. I've just never liked them - a probeaphobe to my heart. My main strategy in most of these games is to outgrow and outproduce.

If you're familiar with Moo, my favorite race is one with Aquatic and Subterranean bonuses - huge population boosters. Add in Unification gov't, and you get large industry potential too. I'm a classic builder.

[yavoon]

thats very pretty and idealistic blackie, but not very analytical.

and on my own sidepoint, rock/paper/scissors is usually the easy way out of a tough to balance situation. but very often not the best.

[knowhow2]

Originally posted by Barry Brenesal


With respect, I think you supplied the counter to your own theory: Small maps favor factions that can produce stronger armies, more of 'em, and more advanced. On a smaller map, both the Spartans and the Believers tend to rule. On large maps

You make a good point(s). But I think you have to read my post one more time. I hardly think it would make a big different on a standard map NOT large map. The difference from a small and a standard map isn't that great. And as yavoon keeps writing in his posts (with all right) we are talking about STANDARD maps and the effectivety for each factions (or something like that). So my humble comparison was that Spartan Warmight on a small map shouldn't differ that much from Spartan warmight on a standard map. Never meant to say that Spartans are invincible on ALL maps.

However it seems that the 2179 thing was done on a TINY map, then it would be a difference compared to a Standard map. So I will gladly refrain from using that as an argument in the future. But still, Barry B, you should read other peoples post carefully in the furture before telling them how wrong they are.

-knowhow2

[Xian]

The whole point of this thread is pretty dumb, because its extremeley boring to play against the ai after a while anyway, and any change made to "help" would only be for balancing ai faults, and would probably mess up the "Persona" of the factions. (The only exceptions i could think of would be making a recreations commons a church for the beleivers, so they start with one)

If you want a real solution, youd only need to improve the ai...

the factions, while not TOTALLY balanced, arent so much weaker or stonger than youd actually be able to notice as a single human being playing the game objectiveley. Everybody plays different, but nobody plays every-single way. If morgan (of all factions!) seems weak to you, you dont play that style.

Did you get fired from Firaxis Yavoon? Why be so bitter against the company?

[WhiteElephants]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by yavoon
I have but one thought on the believers, they are a slow starting momentum faction. how can that be good? they get centauri ecology at like 2120, they get planetary networks in like the 50's.[QUOTE]

I don't know that I'd be researching Centauri Ec. or Planetary Nets. right away as Miriam. I would prefer the laser tech and Doctrine: Mobility for an early rover rush with her +25% to offense. If you happen to catch a unit in the open with your rover you're battling with a 3.125 on offense (2x1.25x1.25) and the same goes for infantry against a base (if I remembere the bonuses correctly). That, of course, isn't couting the morale bonus from running Fundy or any other morale bonus applied from various means -- command centers, monoliths, etc. Given Miriam's support bonus you shouldn't have too much trouble raising a large army in no time.

I think if you're going to play Miriam like a research/builder faction you are playing to your weakness and into the hands of your enemy and not playing to your strengths.

[Barry Brenesal]

Originally posted by knowhow2

However it seems that the 2179 thing was done on a TINY map, then it would be a difference compared to a Standard map. So I will gladly refrain from using that as an argument in the future. But still, Barry B, you should read other peoples post carefully in the furture before telling them how wrong they are.
-knowhow2

&knowhow, first off, I wasn't telling you *how wrong you are.* I was simply offering my own POV regarding your comments. There's a big difference between the two as I see it, and if you don't, we'll just have to differ--if you can accept that much.

Now I did read this thread, and this is what I saw as its basic premise, right in the very first post:

basically I feel the believers, spartans, and morgan are the weak end of alpha centauri. and its these three I wna change something to. have yall discussed this before? what have ya done? Also a lil trickier cuz I'd like to keep the relative uniqueness of the factions.

Not your post, certainly, but the thread began as a straight-on comparison between various factions, without regard to world size. Secondly, yes, IMO the difference between a tiny and moderate-sized map is considerable. So I stand by my comments, as you may stand by yours.

[yavoon]

whiteelephants, I GUARENTEE YOU, that if u do not get formers ASAP as miriam, you are dead. really dead, unless u have some ridiculously good starting position, nothing but rolling/rainy/rivers.

ok so u get mobility/laser first, now its 2135 ATLEAST. and u can build yer first recon rover. u still can't terraform, or build roads. u get SOB? ok well now its like 2160-70 atleast. and this is being almost generous. I think miriam tech comes in like 12 turns if ur doin decent early. u gna get ecology yet? or maybe u get ecology after mobility/laser, now its 2170-80 when u get human brain.

now of course this is w/o diplo so it loox much worse than it is. but still, miriam does not have easy diplo time. she gets 2 techs at year 2120. social pscyh, most ppl even ai's get quickly.

I can also see you don't make many early attacks, cuz you never go for mobility early, u get plan networks, and use the probes rover chasis. so now u can steal tech too. infact in all of my early attacks, it sjust a race to planetary networks. make mad probes, and follow that up w/ army. unless I'm doing something to abuse how bad the ai is.

[Adalbertus]

The discussions in this thread (and others) leave me with the impression that the factions are quite well balanced if played by humans. In some cases, the AI is simply too dumb to play the faction correctly, or at least as well as the others.
This raises the question about how this game (and other civ games) are developed: Is the balancing done in a basic multiplayer mode and the AI programmed later, or is balancing done on the basis of a human player against the AI? The only game where I know this is FreeCiv, which uses the first approach. Anyone an idea?
Btw. in most of my games (on a huge map), Dee is the strongest (and if not the second) AI faction.

[yavoon]

Adal, u think Miriam has a snowballs chance in hell against Zak? really, cuz thats cute. I always thought I could imagine start locations that would give miriam the advantage, or some ridiculous amount of early luck that would let miriam take a lead. but it'd take so much that'd its silly to think about.

[Xian]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
The discussions in this thread (and others) leave me with the impression that the factions are quite well balanced if played by humans. In some cases, the AI is simply too dumb to play the faction correctly, or at least as well as the others.
This raises the question about how this game (and other civ games) are developed: Is the balancing done in a basic multiplayer mode and the AI programmed later, or is balancing done on the basis of a human player against the AI? The only game where I know this is FreeCiv, which uses the first approach. Anyone an idea?
Btw. in most of my games (on a huge map), Dee is the strongest (and if not the second) AI faction.

EXCACTLY

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by yavoon
I can also see you don't make many early attacks, cuz you never go for mobility early, u get plan networks, and use the probes rover chasis. so now u can steal tech too. infact in all of my early attacks, it sjust a race to planetary networks. make mad probes, and follow that up w/ army. unless I'm doing something to abuse how bad the ai is.

Most consider using the probe rover chassis on a different unit as a cheat, though I imagine that getting Centauri Ecology early wouldn't really be out of anyones way when playing Miriam. With some amount of luck you could probably manage to trade for it for Social Psych since I would imagine that everyone would be going for Centauri Ecology first and would eventually want Social Psych.

Adal, u think Miriam has a snowballs chance in hell against Zak? really, cuz thats cute. I always thought I could imagine start locations that would give miriam the advantage, or some ridiculous amount of early luck that would let miriam take a lead. but it'd take so much that'd its silly to think about.

Given that Zak has a negative probe modifier and Miriam has a positive probe modifier (with a propensity to run Fundamentalism as well for another +2 probe) I can imagine she could do a pretty bang up job of stripping Zak of his tech lead. Granted I'll concede that Zak is probably the best faction to play, but you know as well as I it's not simply a matter of Zak vs. Miriam, there are several other factions to take into account among many other variables.

In a SMAC MP game we (me playing Morgan, and my pactmate playing Zak) were soundly trounced by the Miriam player (Buster). Now given our appreciation for Zak you'd think my alliance would have steam rolled Miriam, but that wasn't the case.

The fact of the matter is that this game depends solely on a persons ability to get bigger faster than their opponents. Each faction has there own somewhat unique way of doing this and it varies from map to map. Once you throw in the variables of diplomacy that occurs between humans and their varying skill levels its anyones game no matter the player's faction choice.

[yavoon]

I feel like a god damn broken record. ATLEAST 4 times I've sed that YES, the game has a large scope, WHERE adn this has been sed "luck/skill/indifference" can makeup for a lot of things. I HAVE ALSO sed that the FREE FOR ALL nature of a large multiplayer game is very complex. and can lead to almost neone winning. THAT BEING SED. and this is MORE quoting "the stronger faction still has the better chances."

do u even read wut i write? cuz its frustrating to repeat this. probe modifier is prolly the weakest social area. omg -2 probe. air units can't be bribed, and stationing 1 probe in succeptable bases means miriam needs 2-3 probes per operation. cuz morale modifier's on probe teams is really inconsequential for determining the winner(no matter wut its almost always gna be 50/50). I dont know, its like you ppl don't think analytically. no wonder you get beat by miriams.

as for the social psych thing, a lot of ppl end up getting social pscyh very early unless they are going on a COMPLETE beeline to ind. auto. early social psych allows an early project base w/o needing something lucky like a rocky/min bonus. and grabbing one of the early projects is very important. so like I sed, miriam NEEDS centauri ecology. and most ppl get social psych neway, surely zak does on his way to SOB, if thats where he goes. which is quite likely if he wants to run freemarket later that he will beeline SOB first, then ind. auto. neway, the end result of all of this, is Miriam's first tradeable tech is at year 2130+, and this is prolly information networks, cuz miriam wants probe teams ASAP. and info networks is again on the way to ind. auto. you see how its just not working out that good for miriam and diplomacy?

incase someone missed the disclaimer earlier, go shoot yourself.

[yavoon]

that post was angrier than i wnted, I was just flusterated.

sorry.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by yavoon
do u even read wut i write? cuz its frustrating to repeat this. probe modifier is prolly the weakest social area. omg -2 probe. air units can't be bribed, and stationing 1 probe in succeptable bases means miriam needs 2-3 probes per operation. cuz morale modifier's on probe teams is really inconsequential for determining the winner(no matter wut its almost always gna be 50/50). I dont know, its like you ppl don't think analytically. no wonder you get beat by miriams.

Right. It must be the rest of us who can't think analytically.

Despite my analytical handicap I would also suggest that you could probably manage to bribe a stray Zak unit or two out from under him at a relatively cheap price, though I haven't looked into it the exact prices. I know bribing Miriam's units were no cheap investment.

There is also the chance that you'll run into a fringe un-probe occupied base of Zak's which would make the probing easy pickings and with the +2 probe you'd have a good chance of it not being caught unlike most other factions.

neway, the end result of all of this, is Miriam's first tradeable tech is at year 2130+, and this is prolly information networks, cuz miriam wants probe teams ASAP. and info networks is again on the way to ind. auto. you see how its just not working out that good for miriam and diplomacy?

Not true. Miriam's first tradeable tech is 2101. No one else has Social Psych and in a rush of early expansion I don't consider it a high priority, though a tradeable one nonetheless.

I'm curious why you put such an emphasis on Secrets of the Human Brain? I could understand if you intended to run Free Market, but you need to get Industrial (something or other -- B2) first. And even then it only effects your ability to defend. With Miriam's +25% to attack (I believe it applies to PSI combat as well) you really shouldn't have too much of a problem getting the jump on the stray mindworm moving into your territory, not to mention the morale bonus of running Fundy, though that wouldn't also effect your tech rate.

I'm also wondering if you've ever tried palying multiplayer to really appreciate the differences it makes? I can honestly say that there is nothing that could have prepared me for it.

I'm not going to deny that Miriam is "weaker", I just think that there are possibilities for her that you have overlooked in your anallytical pursues and the only reason I find her weaker is because she is less adaptable, or flexable, than other factions, but in that catagorey she is not alone.