Scientific Development in the Anicent Era

CygnusZ · October 31, 2001, 00:20

As I'm sure we've all noticed, using expansionistic techinques was made harder with CivIII. It takes a few turns to get that second settler out now, and that extra worker is mostly only good for roads under depotism.

There's no doubt we need the roads though. Technology develops at a snails pace in this era! I'm not sure about you all, but I ended waiting 32 turns for Monarchy and Polytheism. It's too much time to wait for what should be simply advances.

Of course, this calls for alternate stratedgy. It seems to me that the most logical progression for the early era, if you're playing builder or hybrid style, would be to jump for the optional advance of literacy. That way you could at least build a library and get some additional research. Even then though, it seems like a long journey of 20 turn technology advances to get to monarchy.

The other idea I had was going for the Golden Age's at the start. One of the firaxian's mentioned that this was a good idea. I've gotten one golden age so far, and it was all that it was hyped of to be. Heck, an English city even defected to my side! Trade was rasied so that helped too.

Anybody else have any idea's how to overcome early game tech stagnation?

Sarxis · October 31, 2001, 01:04

Slider bars.

nlmalph · October 31, 2001, 01:07

Anybody else have any idea's how to overcome early game tech stagnation?

Expansionist civs have a big bonus in this area, the scouts and the increased chance of getting tech from goodie huts means you can get a lot of your tech for free.

As the other person mentioned, I raise my science rate a lot as well, but its still remarkably slow.

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 01:18

From my very limited experience (I'm on my first real game after a couple false starts, and I've just made it to the middle ages), here's what I can offer:

Definitely make sure to bump up your science rate right away to as high as possible without losing money. Use your worker not only for building roads, but mine alll your grassland to increase production. Even if you have fresh water and can irrigate, it won't do you any good for a long time since Monarchy and Republic are far up the tech tree. You can always replace your grassland mines with irrigation later if you want.

And the most important thing for getting tech going is to expand as quickly as possible, but try to do it in a ring around your capital. Corruption is horrible, but keeping your cities close to your capital mitigates it somewhat. Don't build any workers at first since they cost you pop points, and you need those points to build settlers. Try to time your settler production so that the settler is ready on the same turn you grow to size 3, if possible.

Anothet tip: if you're not religous, then go for Ceremonial Burial very early. The borders of your capital will expand on their own due to the palace, but the only way for your borders to expand in other cities is by building a temple. You can also build a library, but Literature is far up the tech tree. And forget about building a wonder in the early expansion phase.

Other very important techs are The Wheel and Iron Working, so that you can see the location of the Horse and Iron resources. Even if they're not in your territory, it helps to know where they are.

Grunthex · October 31, 2001, 07:26

I have some serious questions with the science rate and the way it works.

For example: Beginning of game, fouind city. No rivers around, no trade resources. Total trade: 1, allocate to science. Time to develop Bronze Working: 32 turns. Ok, 32 science, right?

Immediately set science rate to 100%. 3 turns later, a road gives me an extra trade, also going to science. Domestic advisor shows 2 income, 2 science. Great! Time to research? Still 29 turns.

Ok, so I just need to end turn, right? No. Goes down 1 at a time. 3 science: Same thing. NO INCREASE. I'm going to do some more experimenting with this, but at the moment, it looks like when you start a research, it figures out how long it will take you based on your current science, and increasing it does... NOTHING!

I know it's 4 am, but am I crazy? Can anyone else confirm this?

Sarxis · October 31, 2001, 07:59

Grunthex- I know what you are talking about. I too have noticed this phenemona, but I am not sure exactly what is going on.

I will take a closer look at it next game.

Sava · October 31, 2001, 08:23

Perhaps it is part of the game at that point. I think they might have put a cap on the science rate early on to force people to worry about expanding. I always felt it was too easy to climb the tech tree and have tanks before 0 AD, even on deity. If it keeps a realistic flow of time, I'm all for it. Remember in 4000 BC, there were no scientists. Some cultures did not even have a written language.

Sarxis · October 31, 2001, 09:32

Yeah, but it would be nice to let us know that our extra research is being wasted.

I am not sure at all how research is supposed to work early on.

CygnusZ · October 31, 2001, 11:31

Yes... I'm also certain there is a cap. Poking around the editor I found that:

Bronze Working has a "cost" of 3
Monarchy has a "cost" of 24
Literature has a "cost" of 10

Pretaining to the issue of cost... it either is the integer itself (unlikely), or a multiple of it. The other possibility is that it is the base integer multipled by set constant and then some more added on by each technology learned.

Here's my guess:

Technology rate= Cost*10+# of techs

Why? Because Bronze Working takes 32 turns to develop at the start. If we say that the tech rate is capped then we are working off a base of exactly 1 point of science. This works if cost*10 is the actual science rate. Then, we can put two on the tail end of the equation because each civilization starts with the 2 technologies.

32 Turns = 3*10+2=Happy Happy Spearmen

I'd be interested if anybody agree/disagree with this formula. Also, if somebody would like to help try to figure out how the cap works it'd be helpful info.

Problem Though -- Hmm, the whole cap thing though is such an attempt to slow down the pace of the game. What's the point though of even developing a civilization based upon the principle's of science if all those resources go down the drain?

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 13:44

I would consider it a major flaw in the game if it's really true that the number of turns to discover a tech is fixed at the time you start research, regardless of additional science points you add during research.

If this is the case, then the best strategy would be to maximize science output just before starting research, then swing to 0% science until the next discovery. I can't believe there is such an obvious flaw in the game - this requires some more experimentation. Unfortunately I'm not home right now to try it.

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 15:30

A friend of mine just thought of a possible explanation as to why increasing your science doesn't seem to bring down the time to the next discovery. Perhaps the game is doing you a favor. Maybe the actual time to get that first discovery should be much more than 32 turns, but the game caps it at 32.

I plan to play with this when I get home to see if I can figure out what is going on.

Dan or anyone from Firaxis, if you wanted to chip in here and explain, I'd appreciate it greatly!

rah · October 31, 2001, 15:54

I do think you guys are hitting max. I played with some different starts and when I had good trade squares to work I would change which square was being worked and it did change the number of turns to develop the next tech.
Think about rounding. 50% of one currency probably rounds up to 1 science beaker. Even if you switch to 2 currencies, it still rounds to 1 science beaker and you wouldn't see any change.
At 60% it would round the same.

RAH

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
I do think you guys are hitting max. I played with some different starts and when I had good trade squares to work I would change which square was being worked and it did change the number of turns to develop the next tech.
Think about rounding. 50% of one currency probably rounds up to 1 science beaker. Even if you switch to 2 currencies, it still rounds to 1 science beaker and you wouldn't see any change.
At 60% it would round the same.

RAH

Grunthex did specifically say he was setting science to 100%.

rah · October 31, 2001, 17:42

Sorry, I tried to answer everyone at once.

BUT I did change workers and it did effect the turns to discovery.
So something must be different. It also changed when I changed the sliders. But at the time I had 5 or 6 currencies.

HalfLotus · October 31, 2001, 17:42

It takes FOREVER to get to Monarchy. Try playing with a civ that has 1 or 2 pre-req's for Monarchy or Republic. I ended up going straight for Rep. my first game. Build roads everywhere. They give commerce bonus on all tiles I think. Once you get to Monarchy, the tech rate picks up.

Grunthex · October 31, 2001, 18:00

Quote:

Originally posted by CygnusZ
Yes... I'm also certain there is a cap. Poking around the editor I found that:

Bronze Working has a "cost" of 3
Monarchy has a "cost" of 24
Literature has a "cost" of 10

Pretaining to the issue of cost... it either is the integer itself (unlikely), or a multiple of it. The other possibility is that it is the base integer multipled by set constant and then some more added on by each technology learned.

Here's my guess:

Technology rate= Cost*10+# of techs

(Some of your stuff snipped out)

This is not a solution yet, but there is also a built in tech stagnation based on the size of your map. The Normal map size has a tech stag of 120. This is confirmed by the editor help file. The Large map is at 160. So techs come 33% slower on Large. Not sure how this all works, but you need to consider it for your formula. For the record, all my 32 numbers came from Large maps.

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 20:08

I ran a more detailed test, and here is what I found.

At the start I had 2 commerce, 1 from the city square, and 1 from the square I was working. It said 32 turns for my first advance (bronze working). I checked the city and it was producing 1 treasury, 1 science as expected. I raised science to 100%. The city switched to 2 science, 0 treasury. But it still said 32 turns.

I played a a few turns until my first pop growth. Each turn the number of turns remaining for the advance went down by 1. When I grew, I was able to work a second square which gave me 2 more commerce, for a total of 4. At 50% science (2 science, 2 treasury), the number of turns remaining was 22. It was 23 the turn before I grew, so no change. When I raised science to 70%, the city produced 3 science and 1 treasury, and the number of turns went down to 18. When I raised science to 100%, the number of turns went down to 14.

I then started another game. In the second game, I had a square which could give me 2 commerce right away. Add in the one from the city square, and I had a total of 3. At 50% science, the city put 2 to science and 1 to treasury, and it was 32 turns to the advance. But when I went 100% science, the city put 3 to science and it was 24 turns to the advance.

So all I can conclude is that at the start, it makes no difference if you have 1 or 2 science, but every point beyond the second helps. I don't have an explanation as to why this occurs, but that seems to be the behavior.

CygnusZ · October 31, 2001, 20:18

Hmm... so it's like there are "beaker barriers". That seems a bit odd. Not every beaker gives science, but the 1st and 3rd beaker do.

Would we have to make a chart that showed exactly which # beaker's helped toward scientific development and which beakers didn't?

I'm not willing to let go of the theory (yet) that year in the game plays into the rate of technology development. The game seems to want to keep you from leaving the Anicent Age too early.

Buck Birdseed · October 31, 2001, 20:48

What happens if, after starting research on a tech, you lower the research level instead of raise it?

albiedamned · October 31, 2001, 20:57

I don't think it's "beaker barriers". Increasing to 3 science helped me, and increasing to 4 science helped me more. I think there's just no difference between 1 and 2 science. I also think (although I didn't test this) that it only applies at the very beginning when you only have 1 city.

I suspect what is going on is something like the cap I mentioned earlier. In reality that first tech should take longer than 32 turns with only 1 science, but the game does you a favor and imposes a cap at 32 turns.

CygnusZ · October 31, 2001, 21:58

I can buy that.

Sarxis · November 1, 2001, 01:44

There definately is something going on in the research calculations. Not that I don't like it, I just always like to know how things work.

albiedamned · November 1, 2001, 01:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunikoba

There definately is something going on in the research calculations. Not that I don't like it, I just always like to know how things work.

Me too. Hopefully a Firaxian will read this thread and elighten us.

Grunthex · November 1, 2001, 02:14

Quote:

Originally posted by albiedamned
I don't think it's "beaker barriers". Increasing to 3 science helped me, and increasing to 4 science helped me more. I think there's just no difference between 1 and 2 science. I also think (although I didn't test this) that it only applies at the very beginning when you only have 1 city.

I suspect what is going on is something like the cap I mentioned earlier. In reality that first tech should take longer than 32 turns with only 1 science, but the game does you a favor and imposes a cap at 32 turns.

This is almost certainly correct. Once I hit 4 science or so, I notice the difference with every point. And you never ever ever see more than 32 turns to research a tech. It appears it is a helpful limit put in.

Now of course the question becomes the mechanics behind it. If (numbers mine) for example tech A costs 160 science, does the game automatically give you minimum 5 science/turn, and go from there?

It *seems* that is how it works, but I don't know a good way to do the experimenting any further. Anyone with ideas, pipe up.

Strollen · November 1, 2001, 03:28

One think I notice on the science is that it works differently than Civ2. Instead of each advance you get costing an increase amount. I'm pretty sure that each advance in Civ 3has a fixed amount passed on where it is on the chart.

So for instance if you research the fast path to Monarchy getting Monarchy will take a very long time (30 turns.) On the other hand if you research the stuff on left hand side most advance will come reasonably fast 4-10 turns.

Lord Maxwell · November 1, 2001, 05:29

I recommend that you keep very close watch on how much science output really helps you. I noted this when I was down to 10 gold and losing 1 per turn. So I cut my science from spending 31 gold each turn to spending 15. Which made Republic go from 24 turns from finished to 26 turns to finished. I can live with an 8% increase in time for +15 gold per turn when I only have 10 gold. (I was going straight for republic, only stopping by masonry first, so it was pretty early.)

I'll watch the science spending with religious zeal now. Every turn must get a test tweak. (As the AI seems to love money for some obscure reason. It's too early for anyone to be able to rush buy with cash, so god only knows why he wants it. But he gives tech for my dough...)

Steve Clark · November 1, 2001, 12:01

Superb work, albie, that was exactly what I wrote down last night in my first test game. This will require a new way of thinking.

Did I understand "Monarchy in 30 turns" for Lord Max's post? I think it's alot more than that. I haven't studied the turn length but I can envision Monarchy by 1ad in some cases.

Ray K · November 1, 2001, 13:03

Guys, everything I've seen indicates that there is a cap of 32 turns for researching technology.

Do you know what this means?

When every technology is going to take a long time, ALWAYS research the most advanced tech. That way, you get the most bang for your beaker.

Once you have plenty of cities, you can then pick up the easy advances when they only take 5-6 turns.

albiedamned · November 1, 2001, 13:53

That is a good strategy idea, Ray K. This might the first example of us users cracking the AI and finding ways to outperform it!

Grunthex · November 1, 2001, 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Superb work, albie, that was exactly what I wrote down last night in my first test game. This will require a new way of thinking.

Did I understand "Monarchy in 30 turns" for Lord Max's post? I think it's alot more than that. I haven't studied the turn length but I can envision Monarchy by 1ad in some cases.

Making a staggering beeline for Monarchy, filling out most of the rest of the Ancient tree with my expansionist scouts, I can usually hit Monarchy now between 500 BC and 100 AD.

The advantage is that due to the 32 turn limit, by the time you're doing Polytheism and Monarchy, you probably don't have the tech base this early to dent the time, so you throw 90% into the tax coffers and let the freebie carry you to Monarchy. Then you're rich, and ready to rumble.