I have Civ3, expect an indepth review shorty

[yin26]

1. Lack of MP (a standard and expected feature)
2. Lack of a complete editor (a standard and highly expected feature, especially in light of lacking #1)
3. Lack of ANY(!) scenarios
4. Lack of sufficient testing on some major graphics cards
5. The most God-awful maps ever released this millenium
6. Lack of a zoom good enough to help distinguish many of the things not easily distinguised, etc.

All of those things say: The game was rushed. The game is incomplete ... and Firaxis is too embarrased to deal with it in a public and respectable way.

Civ3 will have to patch its way past Civ2.

[MarkG]

1. Lack of knowing when to stop

yin, get a patch

[yin26]

Markos, you brought this on ... now you are in a corner. The only way to fix those issues is, as you say, to PATCH them.

Funny, actually, that you were the one telling me to look at 'the quality of the actual game' ... then when I do, you talk about a game that hasn't even been released yet.

Odd ...

[Delthayre]

First off, thanks for replying regarding the language Yin (I've always been fascinated with languages, so I thought I'd take an oppurtunity to ask someone with some experience)

Now, on to responses to your points (and pardon me if I get antagonistic)

1. Lack of MP doesn't bother me that much, I'm taking a positive spin on things (It'll give me time to work on my skills until they do release it). But I can understand, to a degree why it frustrates (and at times drives you beyond reason) that it was not present. I still believe they will include it eventually. But, as I have said in the past: If they do not release it as a free download (even if it is also part of an expansion) I will raise hell.

2. I'm justifiably optimistic about this one. They said they'd work with the mod community to improve it and have said they didn't want to hold up the game just to finish the editor (I think they underestimated how much it was valued). I am someone angry that they gave the impression on their website that it would be a complete editor, that my friends is false advertising.

3. This annoyed me as well. I wouldn't be so annoyed if they had released a complete editor (if they had, the lack of scenarios would cease to be a problem within a week). Firaxis would do well to release a free scenario pack (of good scenarios, not rushed crowd appeaser) within the immediate future. A monthly proffesional scenario on their website would be welcome too.

4. It ran find on mine (a 3-year old 8mg Intel i740 based one at that) so I'm not qualified to comment.

5. I've seen worse (of course those were maps I made). I always enjoyed playing on the world map in Civ 2 (I know, an odd thing to do, but I enjoyed it none the less) and was hoping to use them in Civ 3, but their horrible quality (you really expect me to believe that is Italy?) has turned me off. You would think that with larger maps, they would have been able to capture more detail...not less.

6. Didn't bother me, but I can see how some people would want better zooms (I'd like more of a distinction between workers and settlers visually).

I will agree that it was rushed (I've learned to be patient on releases, I wouldn't have minded a delay) but by my standards it is not imcomplete.

I mostly satisfied. The new interface is a bit awkward at times, but it works smoothly for me and the new features (resources, trade, ect.) seem mostly well implemented.

So, in short, I think Yin has several very valid points (that come through more clearly and reasonable when everyones calmed a bit) but I'm more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Firaxis for now.

[MarBaS]

I can deal with no MP, Scenarios, the crappy maps, but the editor being so limited, there is no excuse for a crappy editor. The game can be changed the way we want it with it and it looks to be a big ball of crapolia.

[yin26]

Delthayre:

Believe it or not, I'm closer to your feelings than it might seem. My issue, however, is now we are in the "Hope for a patch" situation AGAIN. Of course, every game gets patched to one degree or another.

I'm just struck at the degree to which a Firaxis game will have to be patched and, indeed, whether or not we will have to pay AGAIN to get MP or a workable editor. That's my main gripe.

[monkspider]

This is a highly polished game, I am flabbergasted at how smoothly it runs Yin. Have you played it yet?
It's impeccable, believe me.
We'll get the editor soon, and the rest of your gripes are exceedingly trivial (sans the lack of MP of course). Civ 3 is probably the most wonderful creation of human civilization in history. Right up there with the Sistine Chapel and Beethoven's 5th Symphony. or at least I tend to think so.

[monkspider]

Plus the AI is even top-notch, isn't that all that really matters Yinny, my friend?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Markos, you brought this on ... now you are in a corner. The only way to fix those issues is, as you say, to PATCH them.

you keep imagining things in my posts and/or interpreting them as you wish

so i will try to make it more clear to you: you claimed that firaxis "screwed up big".
in response to that, i said(right from the start) that the issues so far(and i mean the real issues, not the features that were cut and announced to be cut before the release) can be solved in the first patch. given that most games do require patches(wow!) i fail to see how firaxis "screwed up big"

[yin26]

I'm not taking issue with the SP part of the game, which sounds promising. I'm taking issue with 'the rest of the game' that even Markos admits will only come ... if at all or with a price tag ... in future releases.

You asked me to evaluate the game 'as is': It's not finished. And need I remind you (since you want to bring up the gaming industry) that SOME companies SOMETIMES just pretty much abandon things ... hmmmm ....

"But NOT Firaxis!"

LOL!

[yin26]

"They'd never rush the game! They know what they are doing! Shut up, Yin!"

Well?

And you expect me now to trust the patches ... which, by the way, are ALSO controlled by Infogrames, if I'm not mistaken.

Gonna be a long winter, folks.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
I'm taking issue with 'the rest of the game' that even Markos admits will only come ... if at all or with a price tag ... in future releases.

i'm not admiting anything. it's what firaxis states, before and after the release

You asked me to evaluate the game 'as is': It's not finished.

so once again you evaluated a game without playing a single minute with it....

say, how about writing one more review?

"They'd never rush the game! They know what they are doing! Shut up, Yin!"

you are confusing me with other people yin.....

[Delthayre]

*Sigh* by all indications it seems a great deal of the problems seem like they might be publisher side. Y'know what, I'm getting sick of this crap from publishers, they have no respect for the players sometimes. Most of us would rather have a good game late than a good, but feature lacking game early. I'm still happy with it, but again, I am frustrated at the publisher. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, it is to early for the dirty facts about the Infogames/Firaxis relationship to come out. If it was not for Firaxis's (by my standards) excellent, if limited, track record, I would be more open to the idea that they are more at fault.

Has there ever been a publisher that didn't rush games and stayed solvent? I think there is, but it can be hard to remember since I have to sift through the screw-ups.

In short (for clarifcation)
FIRAXIS: A good studio that admitedly made a few mistakes.
INFOGAMES: Just another publisher that thinks in dates and dollar signs.
Those are, perhaps, overly strong positions, but I have a long standing hatred of upper corporate america.

I guess I'm fortunate that I don't mind waiting for patches (one of the few respects I'm laid back in, otherwise I'm a frantic mess).

It is a good thing that the single player is quite playable and mostly stable (I had one crash, but that was because I had been running the system for quite some time and the RAM was mostly eaten up by other things by that point...restart and no problems).

Now, given what Yin said...I'm going to break out the flannel!

Optimism is good for the soul, but pessimism keeps you sane...as always, seek balance.

[Zanzin]

I think the real question is though -

Is it worse than how CTP 1 & 2 were released?

Maybe Firaxis thought they could get away with a dodgy release, given the history of the most recent predecessors in the series

[korn469]

this is not my review just my thoughts after playing it for a while

*no texts bugs encountered so far
*i have been playing on deity, the AI is fairly smart, however its production bonuses and perhaps a hidden combat bonus (not sure i haven't read the guide) makes it a good opponent
*lack of rush buying in despotism virtually takes away the players ability to get a lead on the AI, and the AI has established strong tech and economy leads on me in the first three games i have played...however i can hold on own on the battlefield
*AI is good at expansion, however it is harder for the player to expand
*the graphics are good (compared to civ2 and smac) they do all they need to
*the sound has statics in it
*in my second game i was playing on the huge map of earth with 16 civs, i was amassing an army ready to take out the russians and zulus for control of south america, however the turns took about 2 minutes to process, so i saved that game (i was holding my own)...i have a p2 400, 128mb ram, 32mb ati radeon, 4x dvd drive
*the interface is tricky, it took me forever to figure out how to establish an embassy...and i still haven't been able to upgrade units
*the new tech advance system is kinds tricky, but it has prevented me from beelining for military techs, things have been switched around, this time i am the player sending tons of old units out
*wealth doesn't seem that good
*no penalty for switching production

all in all its ok so far, but i still need lots more time to come up with a better evaluation...more to come, so stay tuned

[Dale]

*Remembering back 12 months to the immediate time after CTP2 release.........*

Seems like the exact same arguements to me.

"Unfinished"
"Publishers"
"Bugs"
"Rushed"

blah blah blah.

To all the people who bagged CTP2 and said Civ3 would be better, where are you now?

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by Dale
*Remembering back 12 months to the immediate time after CTP2 release.........*

Seems like the exact same arguements to me.

"Unfinished"
"Publishers"
"Bugs"
"Rushed"

blah blah blah.

To all the people who bagged CTP2 and said Civ3 would be better, where are you now?

I am right here! CTP2 deserves to be bagged- CivIII is:

"Finished"
"Published"
"Stable"
"Polished"


And actually, I spent $5 on shipping just so I could get rid of my copy of CTP2, manual and all!!

[Dale]

Originally posted by Anunikoba


I am right here! CTP2 deserves to be bagged- CivIII is:

"Finished"
"Published"
"Stable"
"Polished"


And actually, I spent $5 on shipping just so I could get rid of my copy of CTP2, manual and all!!

Anunikoba, I don't doubt that it is. (I find out when my copy arrives on the 19th) I just find it interesting that the same arguements are being thrown around. Time will tell, like time found that the MODders of CTP2 made a great game (and still doing it) out of a crappy game.

[PrimitiveCiv]

So everybody is whining about how Infogrames screwed the consumer over and forced the premature publishing of a game with no scenarios.....no MP.......and major compatibility issues.

Ah....isn't Capitalism great

Complete exploitation of a consumer that was ripe for the taking! The incessent drooling over CivIII allows this kind of thing to take place.......just suck it up and buy the game like everybody on this forum will do.......

[TCO]

Originally posted by yin26
Well, to a guy like me who thinks PR and common courtesy are an important part of getting me to give up my money: It's a big mistake. A BIG ONE.

To people who could care less and just want to play whatever comes on the CD: It's not a big deal at all.

Yin, I reccomend disaggregating the issues of fan communications and game quality. You put too much stock in how much the developers communicate with the internet junkies.

[yin26]

so once again you evaluated a game without playing a single minute with it....

LOL! THIS IS MY FAVORITE ARGUMENT! (And I hear it all the time). Yes, Markos, if I close my eyes reeeeeeeealy tight, wish on a falling star, and blow candy fairy dust on my Civ 3 disk, and the installation will magically show me:

MP better than ever ... you can play on a constant server ... even take over for people leaving games. AMAZING!

Not only will the editor be in there, but it will be voice activated! I can simply say: 'Computer. Real world map circa 1530, focus on Asia. Difficulty level Alpa.' And it will on its own scower the Net downloading the relevant data for the Civilopedia, including authentic sounds from the era as best recreated at George Lucas' studios!

The scenarios will be so good that major universities will assign them for homework!

The graphics will work ... WITHOUT a graphics card AND they'll restore my eyesight to 20/20!

The maps will be consulted by the military and historians for their stunning accuracy.

And I'll be able to zoon in so close I can see Elizabeth primping her hair in the royal chambers!

You crack me up, Markos!

Korn:

As I said, your review will determine for me whether I buy the game or not ... and whether I 'go on the war path' or not, so to speak. So far, it sounds great.

I look forward to the full review once you've figured things out some more.

Delthayre:

My main concern here is that it's hard enough to get things to a 'harcore' acceptable level with patches even when the release comes out highly polished with all features in place. My experience with this genre is we have about 4 patches to work with ... if we are lucky (before any x-pack, of course). So the first one or two will be spent primarily getting in the features that should have shipped to begin with.

It's kind of hard for Firaxis to worry about the little stuff when they don't even have MP and an editor in place. And I think, ultimately, Infogrames and the general public (even) will simply be happy when those basic features are in play ... leaving many of the 'little' things frozen in the code forever.

Is this the end of the world? No! But it is disappointing, particularly since (believe it or not) I held Firaxis in much much higher regard. I never imagined Firaxis could be forced to release a game without those features with SID at the head of the company.

*sigh*

Just waiting for Korn's full review now...

[yin26]

GP: Read my above post for a fuller explanation of what I mean. I'm talking about maximizing patch cycles, not making us get goose bumps by sending us PMs.

[Jason]

You aren't going to buy the game, or are going to just to criticize it in more depth. Might as well drop the tired pretext of evenhandedness given prior posting.

You are correct in saying that you don't have to own a game to judge it, there is truth there for sure. What people mean, I think, is that some of the more... dedicated naysayers here are discounting with contempt the testimony of people who are playing the game. 2 days after release. Which is a bit tedious.

Flame away.

[yin26]

I'll say this again: The SP sounds pretty good. But that doesn't change the fact that a few megabytes are missing from the game.

[monkspider]

Hey Yin,
Don't you think it seems kind of silly, at least in theory, to criticize a game so fervently without having played even a second of it?
I know that arguement cracks you up. But while it's true they don't give you MP, don't you think there's at least a possibilty that the game is such pure, gaming bliss that you can overlook the lack of MP flaw and consider it a great game? Every game has flaw or two. I think that while MP on paper sounds like an extremely important thing, but I think that the excessive quality of the rest of the game makes up for it. Quality beyond quality. Once you get playing this game that is far more polished then the Firaxis gang had to make it (and it would have still sold like hot cakes), you will see that the lack of MP flaw isn't an entirely fatal one. Don't you at least agree that it is a possibility theoretically Yin?
I must agree that you experience this pure gaming bliss before you are so quick to dismiss it.

[yin26]

If the SP gameplay proves to be outstanding, I'll merely think to myself that Firaxis should be roasted instead of saying aloud. How's that?

Honestly, if MP and the editor are given out for free, this will all be forgotten (if the SP is solid, I mean). It's the thought that we'll have to pay for MP and the editor that get me. Now, if the MP is something really amazing (on-line world sort of thing), and I don't have to pay for access to the servers, then I don't mind it being an x-pack thing. That's worth it. Take their time, I say.

But the editor? No ifs ands or buts. If they try to charge for that, there will honestly be hell to pay ...

[monkspider]

Fair enough, I still stand by the arguement that the absurdly excessive greatness of SP makes up for the one flaw of lack of MP, but it's virtually unheard of to charge for additions to the editor, is it not? If they actually charged for additions to the EDITOR of all things, I may find myself in your camp Yin.
And who knows, maybe AH and the gang can jimmy-rig up some sort of MP yet

[yin26]

*Trumpets Herald!* We are agreed!

[jones]

[SIZE=1]And who knows, maybe AH and the gang can jimmy-rig up some sort of MP yet

This may sound silly to you but keep in mind we have the DMCA here in the US. What I mean is if someone decodes the savegame file format enough to write a utility that mmakes PBEM possible, irnfrogramres can claim its a DMCA infraction (and I don't see why they wouldn't since I am sure they plan to make money from a civ3 MGE pack).


Also: Markos why not create a Civ3 - Advocacy forum instead of moving on-topic threads.

[korn469]

ok after playing last night for around 10 hours straight here is something i have noticed

although the combat system seems similar to the one found in civ2/smac...it is really fundamentally a different system, not in the way it operates but the way they balanced it

SMAC was a finesse game, where as long as you stayed on the offense (even if it was just counter attacking) then a much smaller force could take out a large force as long as it had tech parity and good morale

Civ3 is more of a brute force game, supporting a large army is not only easier in Civ3, it is almost a requirement

in SMAC, a force of 3-4 elite rovers could give a player a legitimate chance of conquering a continant...in civ3 mobile units have lost some of their early punch, they are fast moving infantry...no more double attacks (triple in SMAC)

civ2: World War 2 style blitzkrieg
SMAC: Gulf War style tech/morale superiority blow out
civ3: korean war quick thrusts followed by bloody war of attrition