Question for ancient navy experts

BeBro · June 18, 2000, 14:14

Around 265 BC, Geron II. of Syracus(e?) gave the order to built the "Syracusa" (or "Syracusia"?), the biggest warship of its time. Compared with the other Triremes and Quinqueremes, this ship was simply giant. According to my sources, it was able to transport 4000(!) soldiers.

Questions: Are these Infos correct?
Has anyone some pictures of this ship available? Any additional info are also welcome. Thanks!

Prometeus · June 18, 2000, 15:42

According to Michael Grant, "Hellenistic civilization", the ship was named ALESSANDRIA; this sea-moster could carry 5000 tons ---> considering an ancient man = 60 KG, goods, weapons, siege stuff, slaves ( who do you think was to move this ship ? ) and so on, well ... maybe yes !!!

The ship WAS REALLY BUILDED - a huge sea-monster.

I don't know about pics: maybe this'll fit, but is still unfinished ...

BeBro · June 18, 2000, 15:49

Thanks Prometeus! But are you sure that this is the same ship? I´ve read that after the construction of the "Syracusa" (or whatever), the (still hellenistic) leaders of Egypt decide to build also such a huge ship. I think this was the "Alessandria", but it was not the ship built in Syracuse...

Prometeus · June 18, 2000, 16:09

According to te same resource, this ship was never finished the egyptian one, i mean.

Got the pic i send you ?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

SCDARS · June 18, 2000, 17:19

Bernd, are you sure about the year (264 BC- just at the beginning of the 1st punic war) and the name "Geron II."? Gelon II. would seem more proable, but in the 1st punic war only Hieron is mentioned as syracusan leader...
I'll fetch some info for you, for now I can just recommend http://www.webcom.com/shownet/medea/...h/grkship.html
BTW, I hope I'll be able to reply to your last mail tomorrow...

Sorry, I'd to edit the URL...

[This message has been edited by SCDARS (edited June 18, 2000).]

BeBro · June 18, 2000, 17:51

Thanks Ingo, and I´m not sure about year and name. I have only poor information about this, mainly from a so called "historic" book about the development of naval warfare, but there are lots of errors in this book and so I think it´s not a good source.

I´ve also read at the Classis Romana website that such a ship was possibly a catamaran with two giant hulls...?!?

And thanks Prometeus, I received the pic

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited June 18, 2000).]

Prometeus · June 18, 2000, 23:36

Yeah, the Egyptian one was planned to be builded like you said before, according to greek and egyptian historicians wrote about it. But i'm not sure, this Grant's is not a naval book...
Classis Romana, hyouh said?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

Prometeus · June 20, 2000, 01:34

If you're going to made a restiling of Rome Civ2 scenario, remember that Carthage's fleet was mainly composed by biremis ships ( they preferred velocity - yikes, speed ), Romans preferred more heavy models instead ( quinquiremis-like ). Macedonian fleet also was a lot composite and ...
weird: since Antigonus II Gonatas and A. III Doson, they kept in line various kinds of ships, from the illiric "limbus" model ( a kind of ultra-light ship ), to more heavy ones, as well as heavily-armoured ships ( they were the decisive weapon at the naval battle of Andros against Egyptian fleet, mainly composed of light biremis or triremis).
Seleucid fleet was a "quantitè negligeable".
Too bad you can't perform Greek Rodian fleet in its full glory ( have you even see the "Navarch's" mausoleum on Rodi's island? ).
The Celtic fleet ... well, check out Caesar's "De bello gallico" about Venetic's tribe fleet, or later authors about Brittonic or Pictic-scots models - or send me an e-mail, i've made some rip-off from Rise and Rules of Ancient Empires a long time ago.
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

Prometeus · June 20, 2000, 04:48

Ooops, my e-mail is

fratelli.goddi@tiscalinet.it

P.S. i've finally found where the heck was my Celtic Britain Units.gif file - there are a lot of ships' pics here... just make a whistle !
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

BeBro · June 20, 2000, 05:31

Thanks Prometeus, but are you sure about the Carthagian Biremes? I´ve read that the Carthagians mostly used Penteres (the Greek name for Ouinqueremes, because these ships were built at first in Syracuse and Carthage, only later by Romans).

According to my books Carthagians build also heavier ships, based on the Pentere (Hexere, Heptere, Oktere and so on).

Thanks also for your offer to send me units, but I´d like to create my own "navy"

.

Prometeus · June 20, 2000, 06:31

Yup, i'm quite sure about that.
First - the proportion of Carthage war fleet was 1 to 1 ( i mean one biremis/triremis for every pentera/heavier ship ) - according to my source book "The Phoenician travels".
Second - during the First Punic War, a Carthaginian admiral ( Aderbal/Hamilcar/whateverhewasnamed ) planned this strategy: "Instead of one big fleet, let's make a lot of small ones, in order to reach and ravage Italic coastal towns. A small fleet'll escape Roman's naval surveillance more better than a big one...",
and a biremis suited better for such kind of piracy tactics ( Carthage owned Western Sicily at the time, it was no problem for coastal travelling ships to reach Italy ).

Yeap, you're right, also Carthage's warfleet used penteras/quinquiremis and heavier ships; to be more exact Carthaginian builded the most heaviest phoenician ships ( note: and when i say a LOT, i mean they builded a lot: the Carthage's military Arsenal was a big construction - it stored from 300 to 400 SHIPS, according to a historical newspaper;pratically, it stored the most of carthaginian fleet ! Also, just in case, 200 heavier models can be managed to stay out near commercial docks - maybe they were too heavy to put them into, what a bunch of lazy-bones)... only they where not the favourite war ones - they were a supply/commercial-reserved kind.

Yesss, Romans started later then Greeks or Carthaginians ( they hated sea so badly they called him "the fool's field" ).
Indeed, a wreched Carthaginian "pentera" was the initial model for the making of the Roman Navy ( all the work was done by Italic Greek allies - talking of lazy-bones - because in Rome were less than 100 people able to build a ship! ). Don't forget the "corvus" trick adopted by Romans !!!
Another cute trick in ancient sea warfare was the Rodian Pausistratus' one, the "fire-pot" : a pot, fixed to a wood bar and filled with fired coals, in order to be drawned on enemies by teasing a rope ( it was the "Greek fire" ancestor ).

According to this book, the Egyptyan planned-to-be-build ship should become a QUADRIGINTAREMIS ( 400 !!! ).

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

Prometeus · June 20, 2000, 13:38

Yikes, i apologize with you, BeBro...
i've already sended before the "Celtic Britain" units file to you - it was the one in pics-Zip file!!!

Sorry, Prometeus
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

BeBro · June 21, 2000, 13:21

Don´t worry, Prometeus!

By the way, the Classis Romana website is at: http://www.classis-romana.de/

It´s a great site about the Roman navy. I´ve found it on Hendrik the Great´s site, which is a really good source!

Prometeus · June 22, 2000, 00:35

Thanks a lot ! A very useful site...

For the latest news on Roman naval archeology ( these ships were found only A YEAR AGO - make a hole in italian ground, and you 'll always find something !), why don't you try

http://www.navipisa.it/

Pay attention! The home page is in italian... but there's a link to an english version on bottom of that page.

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 22, 2000).]

BeBro · June 22, 2000, 15:58

Prometeus, I uploaded some new units to my (German) website, including many ancient ships. Click the homepage button, if you are interested and go to the Multimedia section (I can also send the units to you, if you hate German

).

Stefan, Pyrrhos´ ship must be a Heptere (seven rows of oarsmen..."Siebenruderer"), if my info are correct. Lets hope that I don´t running out of units slots for Imperium Romanum 2.0...

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited June 22, 2000).]

St Leo · June 22, 2000, 23:43

Another hint - check out the rip-off from Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires made by StLeo...

Prometeus is referring to:

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

Stefan Härtel · June 23, 2000, 00:51

Perhaps you should also note the flagship of Phyrros of Epeiros. It was captured by the Carthaginians during the wars of Rome and Carthage against Epeiros (in the 270s). The ship had 7 decks of oars, and was the largest ship that was ever in the Carthaginian fleet.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
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Prometeus · June 23, 2000, 00:59

A good hint for BeBro, Stefan!!!
Another hint - check out the rip-off from Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires made by StLeo...

P.S. Many carthaginian triremis were copied from syracusan ships, captured after the battle of Catania against Dionisius of Syracuse in 370 B.C. ---> you can use the greek triremis to perform the carthaginian model, because they were the same...

BeBro · June 23, 2000, 05:33

Cool, St.Leo, I really love the flags and the icons (especially the Egyptian pyramides, the sphinx and others)! They would add lots of atmosphere to my scenario...

Stefan Härtel · June 23, 2000, 05:37

BeBro:

quote:

Während im 6. Jh. noch die Pentekontere (ein fünfzigrudriges Schiff) der gängige Schiffstyp war, wurde seit dem 5. Jh. vor allem die Trierer (ein Schiff mit drei Ruderreihen) eingesetzt. Im 3. Jh. wurde die Tetrere (ein Schiff mit vier Ruderreihen) -angeblich eine Erfindung der Karthager- gebaut, und in den Römischen Kriegen kam vor allem die Pentere (ein Schiff mit fünf Ruderreihen) zum Einsatz. Am Bau größerer Schiffstypen waren die Karthager nicht interessiert. Nur einmal wird eine Heptere (ein Schiff mit sieben Ruderreihen) erwähnt-und dieses war das Admiralsschiff des Pyrrhos gewesen, das die Karthager erbeutet haben.

(From Werner Huß, "Karthago")

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

SCDARS · June 23, 2000, 17:25

Stefan, in which "Verlag" was the book you quoted from published?

Is it recommendable? I've always been searching for a good book dealing with the Punians...

Stefan Härtel · June 23, 2000, 17:46

Here's the information:
Werner Huß, "Karthago"
C.H. Beck, (from the "Beck'sche Reihe: Wissen"), Munich 1995.
Itis my primary source of information about Carthage, and I highly recommend it, as well as all other books from this series (you can find it in virtually every german book store: They're the thin colourful ones, all available for DM 14,80).
There is also another one in this series about Hannibal- excellently written, very informative and with lots of maps.

You can also look for "So lebten die Karthager" by Charles-Picard, but this one can be found only in second-hand bookshops as it was published in 1959.
The "Fischer Weltgeschichte" has also published a book about Rome and Carthage ("Der Hellenismus und der Aufstieg Roms"). They're the thick black-and white ones, all available for DM 26,90 (although they are not as widely spread). I haven't got that one, but I ave 4 others and think it's recommendable too.

Prometheus:
The quote does not say much more than that the Carthaginians built Penteconteres, Tetreres, Trieres, and Penteres, as well as the capture of the flagship of Pyrrhos of Epeiros, the Heptere.

By the Way, I have never heard of the Alessandria - wait: scanning my sources: nope.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

Prometeus · June 23, 2000, 23:34

Tiny colourful ones... wait a minute... yes!!! I think Garzanti published them in Italy also, under the title "I corsi della storia"!!! World is a little place to stay, huh?

About the Alessandria: i'm quite sure about this source; Grant worked at the Trinity College, Cambridge, UK...

Prometeus · June 24, 2000, 00:43

No fair, Stefan!!! The quote's in German...

Anyway, thanks to my good luck the "Rise of Kok Turks" scenario i'm currently working on doesn't have to perform ships....

To StLeo
I guess i'll have to use one of your icons to perform the "Silk Road" wonder...

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 23, 2000).]

Stefan Härtel · June 24, 2000, 06:18

I dunno... they're all by German authors. On the other hand, there are some very popular history books here, all translated from French...
BUT, its not all about history! There are also books about science, medicine, philosophy et cetera.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

Stefan Härtel · June 24, 2000, 06:29

By the Way , Gelon II was king of Syracuse from 240-216 BC together with Hieron II (275-215 BC) (a double-king monarchy, just like in Sparta). Perhaps the ship was not designed in 265 BC but possibly in the 2nd Punic War. Remember, the 1st Punic War ended in 241 BC, and Syracuse was nominally subject of the Roman Empire. Also, remember that the Syracusans built astonishing defense machines with Archimedes- he could've also been responsible for that ship.
Just a quick thought of mine.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

BeBro · June 24, 2000, 06:41

Thanks for the info Stefan!

And I´ve found something new about the big ship: It was build in Syracuse as "Syracusia", but later renamed into "Alessandria" (for us Germans: "Alexandria"). Yes, It has really been build, but his appearence is still unclear today...
The ship was to big for the most ancient ports, only Syracuse and Alexandria had ports that were big enough!

By the way, I think, a scenario about ancient Syracuse would be also a good idea, but perhaps I should finish my other things first...

Prometeus · June 24, 2000, 15:13

Same ship, two different names... aw aw aw!! "Too much ado about nothing" - Shakespeare

. We were speaking about the same thing...

By the way, Stefan, Garzanti published books in the same format, but in various series ( one for history, one for science etc. etc. ), and autors are mostly German ( Herm, Lehmann, Siegert, Schreiber ... ).

Stefan Härtel · June 24, 2000, 16:37

None of those names appear in the bibliography. Could you give me some titles?

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

Prometeus · June 24, 2000, 23:29

A few examples:

Herm, Gerhard: "Die Kelten"
" " : "Strahlend in Purpur un Gold" ( on bizantine empire )
Schreiber, Hermann: "Halbmond uber Granada"
Lehmann, Johannes: "Die Kreuzfahrer"
Siegert, Heinz: "Wo einst Apollo lebte" ( on Thracians ).

I keep on thinking they might be not the same books you were referring to....