HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by belinda9
capo's going to continue to be a noshow despite his best intentions, drake doesn't want to play anymore because he's all frustrated and Aussies are kicking everyone's ass around anyhow and taking forever to do it, to boot, so
what's the point? Just because you've spent 9 months on a game doesn't mean you have to beat a dead horse.
write up the epitaph and let it go

While I by no means believe that this is the end of Diplo gaming I do believe this is the end of this game, as Belinda said there is no point in beating a dead horse. I will show up as always but I believe that this game has been great while it lasted and is a testament in its self to Diplo games (for all those who care about its legacy and all.). But I think it would be best to call it quits.

While Capo’s idea of playing to 2000 has merit, perhaps in another game it could be implemented, but AC is to deeply implement in the psyche of the game (Zulu foreign policy as well as Aussie) to change what has been perceived as end game conditions.

So I say we each write an ending, doesn’t have to make since to each other’s ending but just a history of future events.


VOTE SO FAR

END GAME: Drake, Belinda (I think, if not just change it), Prometheus.

CONTINUE: Deity, Rasputin, and Oz

Capo also wants to continue but (no offence Capo) he hasn’t been here in a few weeks so I am not counting him, as in my eyes he has not been there to play the game (though superb posting).

So what we have here lady and gentlemen is a tie, but I think it also says something that half of the active members of the game are ready to call it quits.

Since a good portion of the people wont be there on Thrus/Fri I assume we will take a break at least, if not I will be there anyway if anyone wants to play a quick game just for the sake of it.

[deity]

Well, whatever, I've discounted playing this week... I'm working late this week. And no way can Raz miss out.. so let's keep discussing this.

The problem is that the more we state the victory conditions the more artificial it becomes. Drake wants a neat bundle but the point is a proper game should be full of unknowns and surprises.

We are spilling too many beans now which is spoiling the story

I said OK to 30 min timer but this has uneven effect on everyone due to lag. ozzy very much benefited by this but that's OK. I can handle that!

[drake]

You act like finding out this is a conquest game, rather than a diplo game is a nice surprise deity

No way can we go for the 2000 ad end. Thats a good oh......probably close to 200 turns away, and at the pace we've been going we're due to finish, in oh....about 4 years

Deity, though while I appreciate your desire to keep the game "natural" we have to have guidelines to play the game by and rules....and yes, at this point, goals. If guidelines aren't established, we're talking about a never ending story.

[The Capo]

First I'd like to say that while I understand Prometheus' statement, I do take offense. I've been the only one to really suggest a compramise here while everyone else just bickers about what is not going to work, that's fine say its not going to work and explain why like Drake did.

Since the sentiment seems to be that I am a non-factor I'll prove you guys wrong by showing up to play when we decide to continue.

If playing to 2000 ad seems too long then we can change the date to like 1800 or something like that. Working with AC and Conquest as our only options is foolhardy if we want to keep the essence of this game intact, that's my main point.

While I haven't spoken to Raz about it he seems to agree with me that AC is not a proper ending, and that Conquest is very undiplomatic if not unrealistic. Drake hasn't said it in so many words be he also seems to have problems with these endings as well.

Nobody else has really emoted their side, Deity has been very vague and indifferent but if I was in his position I suppose I'd do the same thing. Instead of saying "HOTW3 is ruined now because of what HOTW2 established" we should do what we did with HOTW1 and apply its lesson to the next game. In HOTW1 we had issues with the players and rules, that is why HOTW2's rules were very specific and simple. Now with HOTW2 we are having issues with the ending of the game and what a diplogame is, well this is what this game was started to do; establish the diplogame.

We have to use what's going on now as a precursor to the next game, so in effect we have to finish this game out to figure out what needs to be done next time around. If you guys don't want to do that we're going to be hard-pressed to fix HOTW3. If we are going to bicker about things like this until no end then we might as well start working on HOTW3 because this game is already dead.

So we can either keep this thing alive and do what we gotta do, or we can stop this pointless bickering that is getting us nowhere and start work on HOTW3. That's what I see here, that's our problem here.

Also on the same note, if you want to end the game you should just leave. Don't sit here and drag the game down if you don't even want to play it, then to disinclude me because I wasn't around for a month in the voting is retarded as well Prometheus. If you are going to disinclude me then just come out and say that I am out of the game, not just out of the vote.

There's no reason to continue the game if you don't want to, Prometheus, Belinda and Drake if that's what you really want to do then its not very hard to walk away. As for the rest of us I think we should finish this bad boy because it deserves to be finished, we deserve to see it finished, and no matter what happens it should finish.

Most of these arguments are self defeating, so we might as well stop and suck it up. Nothing is perfect and diplogames sure the hell aren't an exception to that rule. So whatever, I say we let the chips fall where they may and see what happens. HOTW2 will always be known as the great diplomatic expirament, let's not cry just because we don't like the results.

Peace.

[belinda9]

Whew. You don't know how glad I am to be here!
First of all, this is my present situation: a couple of days ago, my hard drive fried on me. Major catastrophe!! (For one thing, I had about 3 weeks of uninvoiced work I had yet to deliver on the thing!)
Luckily, my wonderful tech guy managed to retrieve some stuff off of it (mainly my aforementioned work) but I am still basically starting over with a blank hard drive; which means I am still replacing programs, etc. Just got reconnected online today. This also means I have yet to reinstall civ and even when I do I won't have the modpack so if we gonna play on, I will need that.

1.) OK I'm stupid: what the hell is AC abbreviated of? thank you
2.) I don't care. Whatever you all decide the end conditions are is fine with me. I'll war or not or maybe just be the damn wild card so none of you guys will know just what that crazy Mali woman is going to do. works for me If y'all just want to play on until endtime, that's ok, and I'll still show up (when I get back up, that is) I definitely vote for some kinda timer, though!
3.) Some time off is good: at least a week so I can get my hardware/software problems resolved, have a chance to catch up on the work I'm not getting done and get the modpack back, etc.
Today is Wed. and I am definitely not going to be up to speed until the weekend at least because new hard drive install is scheduled for Fri. and I'm on a temporary (small) backup now and don't want to put more stuff on it than I have to if I'm just going to be moving it over in a couple of days (especially since this guy charges me by the hour!)

I have no problem with continuing the game if/when we skip this week. If we go on, I will promise to try harder on the rp aspect, ok? And capo is welcome back anytime if he's gonna be there. If he's AI I'm still after his AI cities. If he comes back, we can negotiate like rulers
If y'all don't hear from me for a few days you'll know why.

[drake]

Hey b, good to see you're back online. We missed you last night in the gaia crew

Uh, anyway, AC stands for "Alpha Centauri" (spaceship ending).

[OzzyKP]

Drake is right there is absolutly no way we can keep going till 2000, that will take forever.

Though it does present a third ending option. So far we have:

1. Play until a mutually agreed upon date (before 2000 I hope!)
2. Play until AC (Alpha Centuri)
3. Play until all the players have been eliminated except one. (conquest)

Other possibilities:

4. Play until a player or alliance accumulates a set amount of cash. (100,000 or so)
5. Play until a player or alliance can hold all wonders of the world for a set amount of time.
6. Equate the United Nations with world peace and after it is built we all start singing kumbya and walk off into the sunset holding hands as brothers.
7. Build UN and negotiate a peace deal to placate all the warmongers and then if total peace can be maintained peace for a set amount of turns we go to option 6.
8. The first nation to take Deities' cap is winner, or if Deity can hold onto his cap for X amount of turns he wins.
9. Play till year X and then determine winner based on how they treated their nation's environment, minus major points for polution and minus minor points for irrigation and terrain change.
10. Capo can tweak the game so that Aliens land in the form of hyper-powerful barbarians and the world has to band together to meet some scenario condition to free earth from the Aliens.
11. Game ends upon Global Warming.
12. All nations join together in "Hands Across The Globe" demonstration and all nations line up land and naval units which forms a continuous chain around the world.
13. Continue till Future tech X.
14. Continue till living standards of all humans up to par. (i.e. all cities must have certain buildings built)
15. Metalhead empire evolves from the smoking husk of the UAS and takes over the world with their killer riffs and head-banging.


I dunno, there are many possibilities, i'm sure we could all do some brain storming and find some ending that we agree upon which doesn't necessarily have to be the one that the game picked for us. This is a Diplogame, we create the game ourselves, so why not make up a suitable ending? It can be anything, our imagination is our boundries (and our ability to persuade the other people in the game).

It seems no one is happy with the standard endings of world conquest and space ship so think up something else. I put up a list of possibilities pick and debate things from my list or make your own lists to give us more options. The possibilites are endless.

Personally I like the Alien ending, has anyone played the Alien scenario? We could do it like that, but make it harder. It is plausible, think of the movie Independence Day. And we don't HAVE to band together, perhaps if Deity thinks he'd be better able to save the world by conquering everyone he could try that. Or perhaps building the space ship could be tweaked to give us some special edge on the Aliens. There is a lot we can do with this ending, I like it. Maybe we could bring this to the Civ2 Creation forum and see what they can come up with. They might be very interested in this. Anyways, thats my opinion.

[belinda9]

How's that for suggested compromise, capo?
some good ones there, Oz, though personally I didn't much care for the alien thing (sorry)

Do we really have to have a goal? (Thanks for the AC explanation, BTW-- I knew I would feel stupid, and I thought that's what it might be, but wanted to be clear) The only reason I ever liked the AC goal was because it was always the only alternative to bloodlust, which I find distasteful (shut up Oz! LOL)

We could just all try to achieve our own little secret agendas by the Year X and then see where we are. I like the tree-hugger option, too, BTW -- or even some combo of #9, 14 and 6? Despite who builds UN we could always make it where to achieve "member status" you had to meet certain standards agreed upon by the World (yeah, THAT would be a trick! ) and your final standing could be influenced by your standing in the UN (how everyone else "feels" about you as a people;and after all, world influence should be worth something, eh?), your treatment of the environment and whatever factors we want to throw in there besides the usual.
It really doesn't even have to be all that really cut and dried: I don't really care all that much about what "ranking" the Mali come away with -- but then, I understand the Mali were not really ever "mine" as much as the (e.g.)Aussies/deity or the Zulus/Drake anyway. More important to me is how I remember the game when it's done.
After all, I would think actually finishing the thing would have to affect how your final feelings were regarding the game. And consider this-- what's REALLY the goal when all is said and done? After all that time and effort put into a game, it's how you want to feel when you see/hear of/remember HOTW

and how is that?

Like capo with HOTW?--(he always speaks of that one with rancor, doesn't he? )
As a waste of time? -- and lots and lots time for some !
As a game that was really great for awhile but petered out?

Or as a game that was more or less "won" by more one than person on more than one level? Because you could still come up with enough levels to have almost anyone succeed at least one or two of them :who had the highest, most sustained spike? (i.e., brought their civ from almost nothing to pretty much of something--Raz has an arguable claim on that, but capo could still make a run at it! ) who was the most efficient by Year X? Biggest might not rate as high there as some. Zulus always real high where world opinion counted: isn't that the main thing that scared Australia into a "preemptive strike"? But there's still plenty of time to exercise world influence, too; especially if you have to "be admitted" to UN somehow.
You see what I mean? Even if we just say, To heck with it, we'll all just meet back on X date and swear to finish the game by X date -- there's still enough left to warrant some really good postgame evaluations like that and leave everyone involved with a good taste in their mouth as they walk away.
Don'tcha think?

[OzzyKP]

Doodily-do-doodily-do Doodily-do-doodily-do

Drake -"Wow, we beat Deity, well that wraps it up, but there's one last thing. Lets just see who you really are Mr."

*Drake removes Deity's mask*

Drake - "Why its old man Withers, the guy who runs the haunted amusement park!"

Deity - "And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you snooping kids!"

[drake]

One vote for scooby doo ending

[The Capo]

I thought I'd be really cute and put an event in the game in which humans come from the future to conquer us before we set off a nuclear holocaust that destroys their future and forces them to live underground (please note the unused yet accounted for units in the scenrio)...

No that was a joke, but it could be cooler than aliens.

Lemme read all this crap and make an actual post... BRB...

[Rasputin]

oki how bout we pick a Year X to end in and then conduct a vote of all HOTW2 palyers (not just the 7 current ones but all subs too ) and hav ethem vote for the winner based not on the usual concepts of size or strenght as shown on PG or Civ Score, but a simple vote for who we the players beleived played (and even posted) the best based on a diplo style... The players can vote based on any thing they want but hopefully they will take into account things like Role Play, Diplo Style , posts, Achiements in the game, Diplomacy, Negotiaitng, etc etc....

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Doodily-do-doodily-do Doodily-do-doodily-do

Drake -"Wow, we beat Deity, well that wraps it up, but there's one last thing. Lets just see who you really are Mr."

*Drake removes Deity's mask*

Drake - "Why its old man Withers, the guy who runs the haunted amusement park!"

Deity - "And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you snooping kids!"

LMAO!

Hey, I don't look too old do I????

[deity]

I think we are going right off the rails here!!

Civ has a process that we all know and love.

We heightened that process to enjoy an unfolding story that highlighted diplomacy, relationships and characters.

Civ is designed to end in one of two ways. This is the expectation from the outset. Why the surprise?

1) Either someone was going to get a spaceship or two going and win; or lose their capital!

2) OR someone might rule the world

You can't change this basic game play.

But of course we enrich with much depth along the way.

In the end you need the KISS principle - the WAY the game is designed is the bottom line.

We can only continue as we were. It's the only, way but the time turns are taking I recognise is a problem, so I suggested the timer compromise - 30 minutes.

That's all we can do. You can't just change things when it doesn't all work out!

We are playing a game called Civ2MP that is designed to be played as..... Civ2MP, and that is the playing field!

GOD, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THE GAME WOULD EVER END IF WE ALL DEBATED VARIOUS WAYS OF ENDING IT... LMAO!!!

he he

[The Capo]

We did not play HOTW2 to enhance the flow of the Civ2 game at all, we played HOTW2 to develop the very new and untested concept of the "diplogame."

There's a huge difference, and while someone with your skills in a plethora of settings may not be able to fully comprehend this, a straight up hardcore Diplo-till-I-die guy like me fully understands. Conquest and AC are both not acceptable endings to a diplogame, the very fact that diplogames have ended under these parameters really disgusts me (at least as much you can be disgusted about a friggin computer game).

So I guess what I'm saying is we should think of a good ending, although I am down for whatever.

Peace.

[belinda9]

ok I know from previous experience that you consider yourself to be God of Diplogaming, capo, but you seem to be THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD with whatever this idea is of what diplogaming is that you're carrying around in your head, cause I ain't finding it anywhere else.

It may be a different style of conducting a civ game; BUT it IS still a CIV game; as deity says. Civ games are either spaceship or bloodlust..now, if you're not playing bloodlust, but no one builds a spaceship, then you have a third alternative, which is the "oops, time's up" ending, which would not necessarily Have a "clear winner".
Preferably, everyone in a game knows what the "rules" of the game are beforehand -- but as that has never been the case here before, why quibble over that now?

I'm amenable to discussion on continuing the game, but I don't want some "deux ex machina" bulls t pulled out at the last minute.

[OzzyKP]

Capo's arrogance may have clouded what he was trying to say.

The entire point of a diplogame is to play like real life and to make our own rules for the game, not just play the game as is out of the box. Even look in CapTVK's diploFAQ it i believe discusses alternate endings. There is absolutly no reason why the game HAS to only be decided by conquest or spaceship. It is likely that those are the ones chosen since everyone is most comfortable with them but no good diplogame should be hemmed in by these constraints. One problem though which I think Deity mentioned is the fact we are debating the ending now that we've reached it, these are issues you all should have discussed when you first started the game. I guess if you want to get technical Deity could have a case about changing the rules during the game which is a no-no unless everyone agrees.

Personally I would rather we had a different ending, a creative, diplogaming ending to truly show that this game is the tops. But I understand that Deity has been counting on conquest and/or spaceship for quite a freaking while or he wouldn't have built up all those troops (and the world complacently let him) so it would be very unfair to him if we just took a vote and changed the whole game on him.

Hopefully we can pick an ending that everyone can agree on, but it doesn't look like we are reaching a conclusion.

So i'm making myself diplogaming dictator and declaring we do the Independence Day ending. If you all don't like it you can stuff yourselves.

(ha ha, sorry, just had to do a Capo imitation there, but Independence Day ending )

[belinda9]

whatever

(rolling of eyes)

[Rasputin]

ok heres my 2c worth.

1. If we play unti lconquest, I dont beleive any one can beaqt Deity so game has already finished.

2. If we play till someone launches SS, Deity will either launch in which case we need to detroy his cpaital , hard but not impossible, but I bleeive in that case Deity will continue conques tto prevent anyone having power to take Capital, if some one else launches SS, deity has enough power to take his enemies capitals as shown already in South America, so Agian game is essentially finished Deity winner.

3. If we play on to some new "Diplo" ending, after al lthat is the game we playing, then anyone can win still.

4. It is not fair on Deity to change rules at end like this, so basically either 1 or 2 is in place, so Deity is winner.


So Deity but you havnet givne us any other options, turns are too slow (eve n30 minutes is long ) to conitnue palying to simply let you see the end screen, you are winner and the game is over.!!!!!!

[Prometheus]

Errr I second that… Rasputin basically said everything I wanted to….

Capo, I have no problem walking away from the game, in my mind it is done, if we are going to continue fine I will play on, never said I wouldn’t. Though it is funny if Belinda, Drake and myself dropped there would not be that much of a diplo game left. This is still Civ, if we were going to have a different ending than the game allows then we needed to specify that at the beginning of the game.

Now I don’t like AC or world conquest as the ending to a diplo game but since this issue was not discussed before those are the endings. But I don’t think it is fair to change it mid-game unless we all agree on an ending and since that has a fat chance in hell of happening I think we should just call the game here and write our own personal ends to how the world turned out.

Now this wont be the last Diplo game and in those future diplo games state at the beginning the ending conditions so this issue does not arise again.

I am putting forth a vote

1. End Game (consider Deity the winner by AC or World Conquest)
2. Continue until some one wins by one of the following AC or Conquest
3. Play with some alternative ending which we will decide later.

1 = Prometheus
2 =
3 =


Vote, decide, there is no as Oz so sarcastically says it “diplogameing dictator”. It is no ones game it is everyone’s and therefore I for one will abide by the group and will be happy to play on but I believe that this game has reached its finish, there is no shame in ending it now.

[Rasputin]

Rasputin votes 3 !!!

[The Capo]

Oz made the point that we came into the game knowing, whether or not it was in the back of our heads, that AC and Conquest were the only ends to the game.

Alright, well I'm pretty DAMN sure the whole group knew this was a diplogame, and further I'm pretty DAMN sure that knowing that they didn't think we'd have a pure war game. Therefore what I'm saying is, if you apply logic you used to back up the idea that conquest is fine since it is a rule we should know about, then I'm suing your same logic and applying it to the fact that in a diplogame this is naked aggression and should not occur.

Think about it.

[belinda9]

why should naked aggression not occur?
now, I studied logic and stuff many long years ago, and your line of reasoning is faulty, capo.
but then, I've never seen all the high holy capo rules of diplogaming, either!
If you think diplomacy rules out naked aggression, you haven't been studying your American history, either! (or you've only had the sanitized tell-it-to-the-American-schoolkids-in-the-version-we-decide garbage they fed you in high school)

having said that, though, I didn't come into this game with any expectations at all -- so I have no problem saying we can have any kind of ending we want. I don't care. I can say an "deux ex machina" ending is lame (my opinion) but still go with the flow.
so I vote 3 -- preferably to a certain date or Future Tech I

either 1 or 2 and the game is over anyway, as far as I'm concerned, whether you waste anymore time on it or not. It would just be a question for jockeying for the #2 or #3 slot or the personal satisfaction of having accomplished some personal goal within the game.

so far then the vote counts at 1 for #1 and 2 for #3

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by The Capo
Oz made the point that we came into the game knowing, whether or not it was in the back of our heads, that AC and Conquest were the only ends to the game.

Alright, well I'm pretty DAMN sure the whole group knew this was a diplogame, and further I'm pretty DAMN sure that knowing that they didn't think we'd have a pure war game. Therefore what I'm saying is, if you apply logic you used to back up the idea that conquest is fine since it is a rule we should know about, then I'm suing your same logic and applying it to the fact that in a diplogame this is naked aggression and should not occur.

Think about it.

lets forget the debate and jsut vote ... !!!!

[OzzyKP]

1. Prom
2.
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy

[The Capo]

3

[deity]

Option 3 is not an option unless ALL players agree.

We either continue or concede otherwise our integrity as players is very much questionable... think about it.

[drake]

2 is my first choice
1 is my second choice
3 is my last choice

[The Capo]

I would like to know how exactly our integrity as players is at risk if we rectify this problem every Diplogame is going to have.

I may have caught a lot of slack for my choice of words lately but that doen't change a thing. The point is that neither AC nor Globa Conquest are fitting ends to a diplogame at all. If you want to play some Civ "Purist" card and tell us that the game was made to end one of these ways then that is your perogative. But right now four out of the total seven players want to amend the ending conditions, two want to play the "Old Fashioned" way and one just wants to give up.

Right now changing the ending is what we should do, further Deity the paragon of "voter rights" throughout the game has now found it convenient to say that votes don't matter.

And Belinda as far as your "Capo's Holy Diplogame" comment, the fact is I don't know what perfect diplogame is and probably never will. What the "HOTW Series" was started to do was attempt to find out by trial and error, but so far we've only managed to scratch the surface.

Peace guys.

[drake]

I honestly don't know what to think.

We have all been building in this game like a "normal" civ game. Not in anticipation of some fantastic ending. We can play the rest of the game that way, but as far as I see it, the symbolic year (2020) has passed and the game is pretty much over.

So now that the votes have been counted, what exactly is option 3?