HOTW2 Continues 2nd November 2001

[OzzyKP]

Well the way I look at it Deity is correct, since we are changing the ending now that the game is almost over we need to get agreement of all players involved to do so. We can't force Deity to abide by our wishes that he finish the game our way. Of course he can't force anyone else from just dropping out of the game, saying the hell with all you guys, and wagging a finger at Deity for screwing everything up like Drake was going to do.

Both decisions are well within the range of options a person has, and we can't force anyone to not choose one of the above options. But both options don't respect the desires of the majority of players in the game so it is wise to persuade whoever is making one of these choices to rethink and choose a path that is more agreeable to all those involved without stepping on toes. When Drake was going to just quit and divy up the Zulu empire this is what we did, it was proved to him that this is a poor decision and would hurt the majority of player's enjoyment of the game. This is what i feel needs to be done with Deity, Prom and Drake now.

Also let me point out that option 1 cannot be accepted unless ALL the players agree to it as well. It is also a deviation from the previously accepted ending of option 2. Although if someone is truly intent on just ending their involvement in the game they can just drop out and we will continue without them.

So a quick summery of our options and situation. A majority of players favor an alternite ending. However they cannot force their wishes upon the other three but must make their case to convince the other players. Ending the game now has one vote I believe and also requires a consensus to be accepted. If there is a hung jury and gridlock then we are stuck with playing the game out (option 2) but with some restrictions to speed game play along.

1. Prom
2. Deity, Drake
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy, Capo

Since we are no closer to a solution than last week I suggest we not play this week again. I can't make it anyways. I can't make the following week either, and no doubt most of the Americans won't be able to either. So I suggest we take the next two weeks off to sort this all out.

[belinda9]

well, okay:
When I comment there's only 2 ways the game can be played, I'm referring to the sttings, because either you click bloodlust (which is a conquest game) or you click spaceships allowed, which ostensibly means the game will coninue until someone biluds a spaceship OR you reach a particular year.
now, is that right, or not?
But if no one manages to build a spaceship, thus ending the game with it's teeny little computer brain calling the civ to reach Alpha Centauir "winner" then what you are left with is
play til the time runs out
which may or may not give you various reasons to call one or another "winner"
personally, I could care less about who gets that tag.

When I vote #3, basically I guess then what I'm voting for is play until time runs out. That doesn't necessarily, in my opinion, mean that every player in the game has to be working towards the same "end goal" in that time period. Maybe someone will be trying to build a spaceship. Maybe someone else will be trying to take over the world. Maybe another will only be trying to acquire the same land area they once had; or to control a complete continent. whatever.
is that consistent with diplo?

And capo, I really didn't mean to piss you off with the (ok I'm sorry) rather snide comments, but you know, you do have a tendency to come on here pretty hard sometimes telling us this and that is not "diplo"
and I did read the CapTV FAQ
and I do have a rather "biting" sense of humor :-)

maybe what we need is a manifesto :-)
I would find that interesting reading

so that means, come Thursday evening we're NOT playing?
and if we DO resume, someone please remember I would need the modpack cause I got no HOTW nothing on my computer now -- not even a save.

[Prometheus]

I have no problem playing till 2020 as far as I know all the techs will most likely be discovered at the end of 1700 so if you want to play on fine, I am up for whatever we do decide. However if we are going to continue to play we need to play because if we keep putting it off it will lose momentum; if we skip this week then we will have to wait until December to play again with Thanksgiving coming up. So I am asking OZ to find a sub for tomorrow because if we are going to play we need to continue the game as soon as possible we all know what happens when we put off the game for weeks.

Belinda I will E-Mail you the Mod.

[Prometheus]

Err no E-mail for Belinda, here is the Mod I use...

[belinda9]

no email for belinda? hmm I wonder howcome?
I thought it used to be there....
thanks, pro! you're a prince BTW, I think you the only one I didn't get back on my icq list, either so if you're around sometime, buzz me on it so I can "catch" you again

[deity]

Originally posted by ozzy
Well the way I look at it Deity is correct, since we are changing the ending now that the game is almost over we need to get agreement of all players involved to do so. We can't force Deity to abide by our wishes that he finish the game our way. Of course he can't force anyone else from just dropping out of the game, saying the hell with all you guys, and wagging a finger at Deity for screwing everything up like Drake was going to do.

Both decisions are well within the range of options a person has, and we can't force anyone to not choose one of the above options. But both options don't respect the desires of the majority of players in the game so it is wise to persuade whoever is making one of these choices to rethink and choose a path that is more agreeable to all those involved without stepping on toes. When Drake was going to just quit and divy up the Zulu empire this is what we did, it was proved to him that this is a poor decision and would hurt the majority of player's enjoyment of the game. This is what i feel needs to be done with Deity, Prom and Drake now.

Also let me point out that option 1 cannot be accepted unless ALL the players agree to it as well. It is also a deviation from the previously accepted ending of option 2. Although if someone is truly intent on just ending their involvement in the game they can just drop out and we will continue without them.

So a quick summery of our options and situation. A majority of players favor an alternite ending. However they cannot force their wishes upon the other three but must make their case to convince the other players. Ending the game now has one vote I believe and also requires a consensus to be accepted. If there is a hung jury and gridlock then we are stuck with playing the game out (option 2) but with some restrictions to speed game play along.

1. Prom
2. Deity, Drake
3. Raz, Belinda, Ozzy, Capo

Since we are no closer to a solution than last week I suggest we not play this week again. I can't make it anyways. I can't make the following week either, and no doubt most of the Americans won't be able to either. So I suggest we take the next two weeks off to sort this all out.

he he

Now listen sonny, didn't anyone teach you to respect your elders?

And if I find the SOB who said I was an old man I'll turn his civ into a pulp!


The problem with that vote is that Option 3 is really a myriad of options that will take us all a year to agree on!

I'm happy to debate the ways diplo games should end based on the experiences of HOTW2 but you can't change the ground rules of HOTW2 itself at the end! It's basically cheating, regardless of majority views. There is an ethic of an even playing field that comes first.

Maybe we should all just save the last save as a scenario, make all players AI, switch off end of turn and just watch it play out!!!!

[OzzyKP]

So are people playing tonight or no?

[Rasputin]

Well i am here to play so if no one else turnsa up it wil lbe just me agaisnt 6 AI civs but HOTW2 will continue, please note my new ICqw number 138269538

[deity]

I hope today is postponed.... have a few family issues today, including an unwell adult daughter.

I'll keep an eye on things here though but if cancelled will have to go out.

We should make sure that the other diplo game starts today so HOTW2 players can be rotational players or subs in it.

I definitely can't play in two weeks time and with Summer coming along my availability will become slightly more erratic so I'm happy to fill in OR rotate! Which I didn't like when Raz first suggested it but it would be interesting if I rotated with Capo for example in the other diplo. I would like to see if I could build up something (together) then see what he would do with it in the late game!

[Docker]

Rasputin can't post right now , he can read but not post, , so he sent me ICQ and asked me to post the following...

We shouldnt start new Diplo gmae till mod pack is agreed too. I would love to play as a Civ called "The Mad Monks" .

We need CapTVK to make a map for us, I dont think a world map is best I think a unknown one is better. Large size though plenty of room to develop nations.

Extra units like Frank suggests sound good but I am not an expert in unit changes so would go with deitys experience on that.

[Docker]

Well no one turned up so the Mighty WAAR empire built Manhatans and launched full on Nuke war and wiped out Australia and China,

Just kidding guys, still waiting !!!

[drake]

This is a fork -----E

This is HOTW

This is a fork in HOTW:

------EHOTW

Any questions?

[The Capo]

I think that we should probably be realists, I tried and tried to convince everyone else otherwise. Before I continue though I don't think Deity's comments, or at least idea, that "changing" the ending is cheating. Because we aren't really changing anything, we are just agreeing on an ending, as a matter of fact when this game began we discussed how long it would take to end it and how it would end. We never actually admitted we would just be using Civ's ends to the game, and that's a cold hard fact, if you want proof just ask Chris.

So we wouldn't be changing anything about the game at all if we said we'll just end at x date or x variable or whatever. To FURTHER dismantle the cheating argument; we also established that a winner, per se, would NOT be declared in HOTW2. That's what we agreed upon, which also further helps the argument that we did not come into this game with the necessary need for a "Civ 2" ending.

But alas, I think Drake might be right and by virtue Prometheus. HOTW2 is dead, it can't survive this because the game's mentality is over now. All of these discussions are going to factor into what we do, or at least be an issue at some point. If that is the case, and it will be, we can't play the game the way it should be played. So in honor of our achievements in this game, and let's not forget them just because of this incident, we should probably solemnly put this thing to rest, decare Deity the winner of HOTW2 (even though it was against our initial "no winner" policy) and begin working on HOTW3. I think we deserve an HOTW3, I think it will be much better after this, we'll be prepared more and we'll have a better flow.

Now due to holidays I suggest a start date for HOTW3 at around January 15th to February 1st. I think that takes care of major holidays and gives us time to tweek the game to our liking and figure out how to fix a few things we didn't like and generally agree on our parameters.

So we should probably end this thread and start an HOTW3 one, with all interested parties (ie those who aren't disgusted with what happened in HOTW2) in tow so we can begin the third installment of OUR series.

See, I think the biggest test of HOTW2 is going to be whether or not it ruined HOTW3, so we'll find out soon enough.

Thanks a lot guys, it was an AMAZING game.

[GNGSpam]

Hiya guys

Ill be brief and frank

From what ive gathered Deity is insurmontably in the lead right now. So just end it. Whats the purpose of going on if he is staring down the barrel of world conquest? Im sure the Alamo might appeal to all of you, but im getting the impression that it doesnt to Diety and a substantial portion.

Quite frankly you all dug this mess, and it doesnt suprise me it turned out this way. We had trouble keeping people in slots the whole game, but it was ok as long as the core stayed intact. Specifically Diety, Drake, myself, Capo, and Prometheus.

The game, in all honesty, began to fall apart with the withdrawl of the old Mongolian player, War, and introduction of Sun. Sun was never consistant and humstrung the game constantly. He was also incompetent which degraded the level of play. Follow this up with the general flakiness of Israel (name escapes) and we see the cracks.

Eventually it all fell apart. Capo became inconsistant, Sun had to be replaced, it seemed impossible to replace Israel, etc etc

So we called it quits.

At least thats what I was told.

Then you ressurected the game, convinently dismantled Mali since no one was playing, and presto!

Inconsistancy hamstrung the game.

But that didnt kill it.

Capo, Drake, Deity, and Prometheus should all remember when I played. Does anyone remember the power situation there?

Basically when I left the game was composed of two alliances. China, Mali, and Zulu v Israel, Mongolia, and Australia, with Capo as the ever wild Wild Card.

Did any of you ever stop to consider why I opposed Deity?

Im sure the impression percieved was that I was some manipulative mastermind intent on world domination.
I was, I make no qualms about it. But I wasnt the only one.

The reason Diety and I were so diametrically opposed wasnt that I somehow mystically represented the forces of evil and he the forces of goodness.

No, we were opposed because we had the same damn goal.

Of course you all see this now, all to late. But dont act like I didnt warn you. I repeated the mantra of "dont trust Deity, dont believe Deity" etc etc

None of you listened once I had left.

Quite frankly Drake, you deserve to be destroyed because you of all people were told the most of who to fear.



Now a quick word about the nature of diplogames. Do we still have the impression that war is wrong and has no place in a Diplogame? Oh sure sure, you say "just wars" are ok, but if no one ever committs an unjust war, how can there be a just war? What I mean is, if everyone waits for a plausable excuse for war, then there will be no war.

History is filled with wars of aggression. Civ2 was designed with this very much in mind. Take a look at the unit roster. 2 trade units, 2 settlers, and dozens upon dozens of combat units.

What helps happiness? Army units.

Why build Railroads? To move units faster.

What do you spend most of your shields on? Combat units.

Folks, Civ2 was very much designed with War in mind because Civ2 is a (admittly vague and general) representation of history.

Your supposed to recreate the rise of Civilization with all the struggles, and conflicts involved.

The concept of the diplogame, regardless of how others played it previously, was SPECIFICALLY agreed upon by all memebers of the original game. The concept was laid out as thus.

In the diplogame we are going to try and act like Historical leaders. This means roleplaying as the leader. This means making historical choices. This means not powerplaying, but rather attempting to act like nations.

Nations are aggressive. This does not preclude war, this in fact acknowledges it as a part of the game. Rulers throughout history have fought, and it was expected these countries in the game would fight.

Drake, you were part of this. So was Capo and Deity. Prometheus wasnt an original creator but he came in very soon after it started (unfourtantly not before the AI hamstrung his country)

You all knew what we intended. In fact most of us were excited by the prospect, to break out of the old diplogame mold of doing nothing but building stuff. How boring is that? Not strategy, just following the same repetative city builds, marketplace then temple then aqueduct then harbor blah blah blah

No we wanted a game with action, intrigue, conflict, negotiations.....diplomacy

So now, dont fault Diety for embodying what the game set out to do. I tried to do it myself, and I applaude Deity on his victory, though quite frankly id be disappointed if he hadnt wont.

End the sick game, let it die, kill the life support.

My unasked for two cents

[deity]

Hi Chris

Yes, it would have been interesting to see how it would have turned out with you still in the game. Belinda did a fantastic job and added enormous depth (and war) to the game, mind you, but a game with the same original seven players would definitely be the best way to go.
And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

Capo, I'd like to be considered for HOTW3 but I'll accept whatever the final choice is. I regard that as your game. Your schedule suits me fine.

[belinda9]

OK so HOTW is history.
We could have drug it on a little furthur but for what?

and OK I wasn't there early on before it was "screwed up" but I don't have a unpleasant feeling about the game as a whole. I would rather have been in the sub pool than to have been thrown into the Mali, but I learned a few things
And I had a good time, which to my mind is the most important reason to play!

So I'll just see what happens with the Monday night Tales of Gaia and throw my name out for the sub pool of HOTW3

bet they gun for you from the get-go this time, deity. LOL

[GNGSpam]

I too am also back for HOTW3.

But we arent starting it immediatly, because we desperatly need to streamline the way we play. Similiar kinks cannot be repeated you know?

And no, Deity wont win this time

[deity]

Originally posted by GNGSpam
I too am also back for HOTW3.

But we arent starting it immediatly, because we desperatly need to streamline the way we play. Similiar kinks cannot be repeated you know?

And no, Deity wont win this time

he he

You think not?

Maybe with player collusion; but players like drake and capo would never consider such a strategy

Anyway, Capo and all, I think HOTW2 was a brilliant, broke new ground and sorted out a few things. Sorry to use the 'c' word - not really appropriate here. You are a fine group of players and I hope to keep playing you all! Without sounding too big-headed I'm happy to take the poorest start if I'm selected in HOTW3....

[GNGSpam]

Start means nothing in a diplogame, something which I think we proved (Mali had worst start in the game, Prometheus had the AI ruin his start, and Ras was hunkered in without the ability to colonize)

The main beauty of HOTW2 as I saw it was that we established a real world community, where the goings on in one side affected others. Classic example was the first war between Deity and Capo. I threatened to go to war on Capos side, and consquentially attack and threaten to take over NA from China. Deity not wishing to see me take over NA cuts a deal with me, and China joins my alliance with Drake. It was a game breaking event. It involved the whole world. It involved diplomacy of the highest order.

Thats what HOTW2 was about.

[The Capo]

Yeah, and also Chris it wound up forcing the VERY principle-based Adriatic League to fight a war by itself based on almost nothing other than pride. Which also wound up being what HOTW was "about." But alas...

There's a lot you can say about this game, most of its really good too. There's hardly much I find that I really despise about the game itself, I'm very proud of it. At first I felt a really personal ownership of it, but as I played with the few of you I've never played before that all dissapeared. And Deity HOTW3 is not the Capo's diplogame, it is OUR diplogame, it is Apolyton's diplogame and that's just what its going to be. There are no Diplomatic Dictators here.

I guess what I can do is just go down the list of all the players and tell everyone what I really think (BTW to the newer players us original guys said we would type up little memoir type post when it was over):

Deity - I started here because for all intents and purposes he was the AL/EU's arch nemises. I had and still have tremendous respect for Deity, he was very astute without going out of his way to be which is worth something. People like effortlessness. But Deity, I knew all along you put into place long term goals for yourself and went after that from the start, I knew your plans the entire time. I mean anyone who was playing in this game knew that no matter what happened in the world Europe was not friendly with Australia, well this is why. You newer people would find it hard to believe that people knew Australia would do what it did late in the game, but no, the originals new from day one what the Aussie posse was up to. I am personally surprised Drake took it the way he did... dammit Drake! I told you for years and years before those soldiers of his even set foot to defend defend defend, and what'd you do? Trade, build, trade, build. Well its the only way to learn. But don't get me wrong, Deity has played me like a pawn before, he finally admitted it like almost 2500 years later but he did play me like a pawn, well him and Chris those bastards! Back in the day when we began colonizing the New World an Australian ship was passing through the Mediterranean, which was a violation on the part of one of the FAWT treaty members (AL, Mali and Israel). It was perfectly likely that the ship came through the Suez, and accoring to Chris, the Australians had asked the Mali to keep silent so as not to arouse the suspicions of the Adriatic Legue (EU). Eventually we find out about the ship and a "Joint Navy" attacks the ship (it was created in Greece but given to Mali) to prove FAWT solidarity. That wound up leading to the first World War, my loss of "leader of the Western movement" to Chris, my loss of my ally Israel who turned on me at the worst moment and would fight nearly ten wars with me afterwards, two huge alliances with me as a wild card in the middle, and a teaty that would give away almost half of my New World posessions and give me a versailles-like treaty that I never really recovered from. So Chris sinks the Aussie ship, walks away with more power, I didn't sink the ship and I get my ass kicked. Chris that's showin em FAWT solidarity. One last point Deity admitted just a month ago that the ship did have a settler as Mali-AL intelligence believed, Deity also admitted the ship was heading towards Corsica to build a city. At least I got it before it became worse. So that's what Deity did...

Drake - Now Drake was very interesting during this game. During the begining he was sickeningly isolationist. I didn't like this because I felt he was sticking to the "Old Diplogame" mold, truth be told I think only Chris (GNGSpam) has the same ideas as I do as to what a diplogame should be. Anyway Drake was very isolationist but once contraversey over New World land claims (made by Australia and his allies) Drake promised to finance the Adriatic colonies. Drake's finances managed to get me Mexico central America, Cuba, the Bahamas, the southern United States and Hawaii. It was pretty impressive, the only thing Drake recieved in return was Greenland. It wasn't really until the Axis alliance (Mali, Zulus, Chinese) broke apart that the Zulus and I became allies. Ever since then he was constantly on my defense as I kept no showing and Israel kept attacking. I feel the worst towards my absences with Drake than anyone else, because I'd swear up and down to him that I'd show. That's the thing, for all his b*tching, for all his whining (he was the glue that held the game together) he was really dedicated to this game and for that he must be applauded. Our website, which was an amazing innovation and I think should still get another run in HOTW3, was gorgeous during the first few months of the game. The charts and diagrams were amazing and easy to follow also. He was always there for games, never missed a damn one (just like Deity) and played his heart out. Its a shame that he may not be around for HOTW3, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. But yeah Drake was definitely headed towards a clash with Australia, just like Europe was. But the again neiter of us idiots were as directly pointed at Australia as...

Chris - Jesus, I don't even know where to begin. The guy is a diplomatic phenom, no ifs ands or buts about it. He's like friggin Klamens Von Metternich reincarnated into some American guy. Its that freakin sick watching the man work, but at the same time its so entertaining and at the same time awe inspiring. This guy managed to convince us that Mali was THE dominant power, and not to rain on his parade but I'm sure that had more to do with his political position than any type of concrete power. But that's all well and good, as a matter of fact its perfect in this type of game. He and Deity also went a long way to prove that a generally desert based nation can be the most powerful in their amazing diplo-Deul between the Axis Powers and the Pacific Pact. Yeah, Chris told me a lot of things, and taught me a lot of things of how to diplomacize, and now that he's up for HOTW3 its going to be really great with him involved. Chris' definite moment, just like Deity's, had to be the events surrounding the first World War. I mean that was probably the golden age of HOTW2. The AL was at their height, Australia was just getting started towards its destiny, the Zulu empire was strong but didn't really say much, Mali was a fiesy up and comer, and China was just breaking from its AI shackles (althugh it wouldn't stand up to its Pacific Pact allies almost two thousand years later). Its just the way Chris used this situations to his full and utter advantage was astonishing, he managed to get his only competition in the West massacred, and didn't lose a single drop of Mali blood in the process. I still think it is revenge for the Louisiana Incident between the AL and Mali, but I'm not sure.

Prometheus - Now this guy I am really proud of, but I still think he has a long way to go before proving he's a great diplogame player. We picked him up after SunTzu no showed the first session and we played China as AI. War4Ever, in his infinite wisdom (but complete and utter lack of courtesy) decided to surround the AI Chinese and settle out a great part of Asia, including southern China itself. For all this Prometheus managed to take the scraps he was thrown and turn it into a successful nation. I'm talking Deity was starting to worry at the end of the game. So I'd be happy to have Prometheus back for HOTW3, we'll see.

Rasputin - Man oh man. Raz I'm going to tell you straight out; I hated your ass the entire time. It wasn't until later that I realized how good you were at this stuff, your diplomacy could work but your posts and upkeep of a national character is very good. Drake really didn't like you at times, and like I've said I eally hated you at first. The thing that I couldn't stand, but will admit its very much my fault, is that everytime I was AI you'd attack me, defeat my AI then act like you beat me. The hilarious part is that we've never actually engaged in combat before, all you've fought is my AI. That's the only thing I couldn't stand was his constant equation of my AI with me. But for a nation that was the smallest winding up the strongest at the end of the game is pretty amazing. Israel/WAAR fed off of Europe and Mali for their emire, Israel once had NO colonies in the new world, now it owns everything that was onc Adriatic or Mali. Now that's pretty impressive.

Easthaven - Ahh East. My buddy, my pal if you will. I really liked Easthaven and I hated having to do the "You're kicked out" honors. It wasn't cool because I felt bad doing it, I've been in so many games with this clown its amazing, and its always purely coincidental. But while he did play he was important, he was Mongolia in the Great War... hey East remember when I decimated your entire border patrol... because yes, I do remember when I LOST THE DAMN WAR! Nice work buddy.

Belinda - I remember when Chris left the game, or was more shooken from the game, that's probably a better explaination than anything else I can think of. I looked at my ICQ and I saw this name Belinda, and I remeber back in the day, I think it was for Diplo V or VI, I was the Iberians in this particular game so I think it was V, but memory is pretty fuzzy. So its Tales from the Diplomatic Front V(I), and I am pretty much getting people to join. We have a huge number of people trying to get into this game because it was back in the day during a pretty extensive Diplomatic craze. One of the people that asks to play is Belinda, she explains how she's only payed in SP games and how deuls don't sound too exciting and she wanted to try a diplogame really badly. Now at this juncture I had no definite answers as far as playing goes, just a really long list of people saying they wanted to play but weren't sure. Belinda said she WOULD play, no questions about it. So I told her she could play. Next thing I know I'm kickng her out so Common Terry or TheNothing could play due to Apolytics, I forget which one it was. Yes I understand this story may make me seem very old, but it wasn't THAT long ago that it happened. The funny part is I still remembered it vividly, so when I asked Belinda I thought she'd still be pissed (cuz she chewed me out for "lying" to her) about the whole thing and either just ignore me or worse, she'd yell at me. Neither happened as you guys know, and we got a very nice Mali player out of it. Granted she fought in some pretty brutal wars (like the Fascist-Commie war where me and Israel both attacked, or the last Israeli incursion when she almost lost her country). Lo and behold she stuck it out like a souldja' I'd be happy to have her on board for the sub pool if that's what she wants, but hey, why not regularly? Oh BTW, if she posted a little more than she regularly does, she'd easily have THE MOST AMAZING posts I've ever seen.

Ozzy KP - The Ozman, this is another surprise in this game that I thought I'd never see. I mean not too many people realize that HOTW, the whole idea of HOTW that is, was actually a jointly thought-up idea by myself the the Ozman. There was a little squabble over the idea of "Created v. 'Real' " tribes being used in the game, and you know how I can get when there are squabbles. So we split away, Ozzy pretty much leaving Civ life altogether and myself starting the HOTW series. I really thought after that moron Nap Bonaparte ruined HOTW1 that HOTW2 would fail, I'm very happy to see it go well and with Ozzy as part of it. Hell Ozzy was a part of HOTW2 from the start; it was his map we used! But as a contributing player, and Mongolian leader, in HOTW2 he really managed to change the way of world politics. The Pacific Pact had been slowly crumbling for years, an Ozzy's enterance marked the end of that. Mongolia went out as the Union of Asian States attempting to unify all of Asia. Succeeding in taking European north Siberia and launching a war on China (that should still rage on to this very day). I dunno, if we would have continued the UAS would have been a major player in the endgame, and I'm sure Ozzy could handle that. BTW, in HOTW3 we're PROBABLY going to play on a non-Earth map, and if we do we are all making up our own tribes... you DO know what that means... right Ozzy?

SunTzu - Well, what can I say about SunTzu? He was a very integral part of the game, in a manner of speaking. He ruled over Israel, China, Europe and I believe Mongolia as well but I'm not sure at this point. He added an aspect of the story that, if anything, unified the world as one stage. The SunTzu lineage was apparent in a lot of places and effected a lot of things. I mean let's face it, if the Australian military's academy is named after the guy he must have done something... right?

For time purposes I'd like to thank the following individuals who played in this game with us, to anyone I forget I apologize:

Berzerker

Sekong

Mr. Dimbleby

Hydey

Dangime

War4Ever

Slowwhand

Again, to anyone else that played in HOTW2 I thank you for your time and effort.

[GNGSpam]

This guy managed to convince us that Mali was THE dominant power, and not to rain on his parade but I'm sure that had more to do with his political position than any type of concrete power

No I never was anything resembling a strong country. I think from a pure power perspective I was 5th, only over the Chinese (hampered by the AI) and Israel (hemmed in from colonization).

I started off with possibly the worst land, I mean half of my capital cities radius was friggin desert! So I did what I could, I did what all weak powers have done throughout history, I built a coalition =)

Anyways it was a great game, diplogames are marvelous in that respect, the poor and the pitful always have a way to power.

[Rasputin]

Well following in the Tradition that Capo started, I too will post some parting memoirs..

I was a late joiner to the game, but I had followed it avidly from the start, I had read and re read all the posts in each and every thread. Tracking the map changes and stuff at Drakes brilliant website too.

Having played Deity in many games I knew his style and how he played, I knew that if he had a ship sailing the med it would be carryinmg settlers and/or troops. I also knew he would have secret deals with a few players especially those not his allies!!!

I didnt know any others and so only learnt their style from their posts , not always the best way to learn. But I could see that Chris had used strong hand tactics to convince Dimbley (the original Israeli leader) to halt progress into Africa. I saw from the maps that the Adriatics had rushed toward the mideast leaving Europe empty, to make sure the Israelis couldnt go North. I saw that the Mongols expanded rapidly under their grea tleader and were soon on the East border of israel. A Combination of a weak leader and strong players around him left Israel small and pathetic. AS I read all th eposts I yearned to play, I knew if the Israelis stood strong they could do better.

Then suddenly a vacnacy occured, Dimbly was gone and Sun Tzu couldnt play. I offered my services as a sub, ( hoping for more). The following week I became addicted and took over as permanent leader of the Israelis.

Now for the truth.....

When I joined, I made hard and fast rules that my nation would bring justice to my people for all the years of constraint enforced on us by the afore mentioned nations, Mali, Adriatic and Mongol. I felt it was well within Diplo rules to fight oppresion.

So my game plan from the beginning wasnt to be part of any alliance , but only to use any allaince i could get to further my aims. (Very damn selfish I know). This of course led to the others hating me in my region.!!!

Shortly after joining the Mali palyer was subbed (cant remeber eho it was) and they threatened war, but I wasnt ready yet, the Barracks building program had only just begun. So I feigned great weakness and was soon aided by Deity with gold and soon after troops. Within a few sessions the Mali were AI controlled and Drake (Mali ally) said ok to limited war with them. My only goal at that stage was to get the land I knew should have been Israeli anyway, the Nile Valley. This I acheieved and formed peace, meanwhile the Adriatics invaded Mali territory and decimated them in North america and Libya too. This fell into step with my next goal, the plan to get the balkans!!!

Fortunalty or unfortuanlty, Belinda then came in to take Mali, I dont know what history she was told and I never trusted her, suspecting she was a Drake or Capo secret ally. (Paranoid armnt I) . But I knew I needed an ally to get to Capo. So I signed peace and in same turn formed an allaicne with Mali to take Europe. She was to get Spain and Italy. I said I was getting the rest, all I wanted was the Balkans.

This next war of course started the hatred of Zulu and Israelis, every time I attacked an aggresive AI (capo was showing up less and less) the Zulus threatened me. With no apparent support from Mali, I couldnt fight a two front war (YET). So I used master stroke of negotion to swap my conquered European citys for North American ones (not in my original paln, but as I saw my civ grow I changed tack and knew China had to be watched)

Then Ozzy did me the greatest service , he subbed one session for me, I asked him to go for peace, (I had strategically incited Belinda to war by placing troops in her city radius the previosu turn, so I knew how she would react, sorry Bel) but Mali atacked and Ozz used my Veterean Howies to crush Mali into almost nothingness.

Upon my return I played hardball and eventually got all of Mali North america and that meant I was now equal to China in America. Stage 1 and 2 of my palkn complete ( Mali and Adriatics totally weakened beyond repair).

Now my plan was to to incite the Mongols to war with China, I was hoping for a Chinese to destroy the Mongols but at same time be weakened enough for to strike. Leaving just Zulus and Deity.

You see all along I thought the Zulus were a force to be reckoned with, I was honeslty too scareed to take them on. Well palyed by Drake to make them seem so big. If I had gone south into Africa isntead of North to Europe this game may have finished differently.

Oh yeah, it ws about this time all the other players (Except Belinda) wanted to know where my Alleginace lay, I knew I had come of age as a civ when Drake, Capo, Prometheus and even Deity wanted me to agree t otheir palns. This is when I sold the game out !! I chose to help Deity (after all he hleped me earlier in game when I needed it) But I promised the world to the others. To Drake I promised a coalition to fight Deity, whislt sending al lthe info I got from him straigh to Deity (NASTY) Then Oz asked for to help attack China, I had the forces I had the might, but at the last minute , I didnt do anything to stop the destruction of Mongolia (Justice Again)

Ok so I played selfishly and should have teamed agisnt Deity and forced him back to the pack. Well actually I tried....

Ok for more backstabbing heres the goss, Whilst the AI controlled Europeans, I gave them all the techs they needed to build Manhattans. (BAD BOY) I hoped an Agreesive AI would build Manhattans, which the Aussies threatened to destroy, in the meantime I was ready to build Nukes.!!!!! But dammit, Capo came back and started building UN !!!!

But it wasnt over yet!!! I then noticed Zulus building UN too. And would youi beleive they came to me aske dfor money to rush build Manhattan (this was after Aussie genicide in South America) I gave them the gold, but they decided in end to continue with UN..

My final back up paln was going to be I would build Manhatans and bluff the Aussies out. I had my Paciifc Island City of Solomon Island set for the nuke attacj, submarines were buildt to carry the nukes. I had enough subs and Production capabilty to nuke every mainland city in Australia.....

But it never got there, The Aussies showed how good they were and we all resigned to lif eunder Aussie domination, Now we are forced to have BBQs every night and watch Steve Irwin!!!!!


I hope you lal realise I played a character and it wasnt reaaly me, I prefer city building and not wars, but the situation I found my civ in I took the only path I could see.....


And except for one bad day when I too ka few verbal attacks personally, I truly enjoyed this amazing game.......



thre that is the truth, I hope that explains why I played the weay I did.. And for al lyou wimps, you should have palyed on just to see the look on Deitys face when that first Nuke landed in Canberra !!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Capo]

Raz, everyone knew what you were doing the entire time except the end part. I really had no clue and thought that you would join Australia and fight us, but the rest was pretty obvious. I NEVER figured for a second you gave my AI nation techs out of the goodness of your heart. And I'm sure we're all aware that Israel's greatest asset throughout the game was European AI, but alas its over...

Anyway I think we should kind of mold this thread into a "HOTW 3" thread so that we can begin discussing some issues.

Like first off if I have a list of people that have offered their services, and this is just off the top of my head so I'm sure I'm missing people, they are:

Capo
Chris (GNGSpam)
Deity
Belinda

Other than these four I have heared no other people actually say they will be available for the game. What I think would be wise is to either have five or six tribes, most likely five, but I think we'll have a pretty nice demand to join the game so we may have to bump it to six. If it is five I'd like to have four HOTW2 players and a new one, if it is six I'd like to have four HOTW2 players and two new ones. Either way we should have at least four HOTW2 players.

I try to make it a point to include some new blood in on these diplogames to keep the trend rolling along (which is part of the reason why I think the original diplo-popularity didn't last).

After we decide on who's playing we should probably decide upon the map we are going to use. IE either an Earth map or a completely made-up (However not random) map. If we use the Earth map we are going to use "realistic" tribes, if we use the fake map I'd like everyone to invent their own tribe complete with city list and leader titles, and if they would be so kind what they want their flag to look like and their city styles to be so I can best accomodate HOTW3's cultures.

As far as changes to the rules go we should agree on that as well, but as a point I think we should include HOTW2's Longship, as well as both the Recon plane (which seemed pretty popular) and the Mobile SAM (Which we really didn't get too much of a shot to use).

Alright, that's it for now, I've got a paper on Vladimir Ilyich Lenin to turn in tomorrow and it aint writing itself!

Peace.

[Rasputin]

Capo , there is a thread on a NEw improved Diplo game already, there are over 9 players mentioned in that one....

Frank is palnning a mod using your wonderful mod as a base and adding a few things,,,

[belinda9]

yeah, capo, check out deity's thread "Discussion " for new Thursday night diplogame
you're late LOL
as they've been talking about it for a couple of weeks: already a tenative lineup
maybe since there's such a list y'all might think about divvying up into teams -- I think this has been mentioned previously. Especially if RL is going to interfere with a weekly committment (as in my case: I can't commit to another night when I'm already embarked upon a new on on Mondays, which is why I'm just going for the sub pool on this one)..that way, you can either swap off who plays/posts or if one can't make it the other can.
IMO, one of the reasons the turns got so long was the number of players. I really think you ought to look at holding it to 6 max.
Maybe with a little experience in Tales of Gaia and sub for HOTW3 I'll be ready for HOTW4 in '03 LOL!

[deity]

I got an intermittent availability coming up due to work.

I can't play this USA Thurs night but can the week after. I'd like to team up with Capo? Or someone who can start off this week then I do the next and so on, subject to our availabilities.

Regardless I think a game should get going this week if Frank/Capo have a modpak ready????

If Frank can't kick off this week maybe team up with Raz?

But I know Makeo and others are ready to go now!

When HOTW3 starts in January we can work out overlaping availability problems then. Maybe HOTW3 becomes a Fri night game?

EDIT! Ooooops, wrong thread

[Rasputin]

Ok fellows, could we please limit the final posts here to the Summaries to be posted by all players...

HOTW3 Thread to be opened Soon......!!!!!

[War4ever]

Originally posted by deity
but a game with the same original seven players would definitely be the best way to go.
And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

Jeez Deity..... IIRC there was a death in the family, strikes me odd that the game would be "all screwed up" because i left.

i had a legitimate reason for pulling out of the game. I have noticed that alot of different players have played parts of this game.

In reality my three sessions could represent the "War4ever Dynasty" and Sekong could have been another dynasty ..etc etc... instead you feel the need to rip on me

IIRC i found a sub in Sekong who you all enjoyed having in the game for the time he was there.

it was the chinese that couldn't make the first start time.....not me....

i have followed this game because i always had a special fondness for all the infighting er i mean out of game diplomacy ! actually i have alot of respect for the players in this game.

Diplogaming is alot of fun but its obvious that strong personalities can cause friction amongst the players.

Rules need to be followed to the "T" to avoid haggling. start times need to be adhered to of course everyone needs to write down their affairs.......

For the most part we had that.....

Deity i certainly wouldn't flame you if you needed to pull out of an ongoing game because of a death in the family...or any other plausible reason.

[The Capo]

On behalf of everyone who played in HOTW2, espcially those who played with you War4, I apologize.

Deity was most likely angered that his plans at the time were ruined becuase of your absence and not the game itself. I mean how could you have possibly ruined it by leaving, it was so long ago that to even equate your leave with the troubles at the end is just ludicrous.

You were a good player, and for that short period a worthy adversary and ambassador. I hope that I will have the opportunity to play you again.

Thanks a lot.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by deity
Hi Chris

And such a shame that *****, War4ever, screwed it all up

I think Deity included the wink at end of this line as an indication that he wasnt serious about all this War.. Well I certainly hope so

I didnt get the chance to play with you , but from the posts and what the Mongols has after you left, you certainly played well and deserved better!!!