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Old November 2, 2001, 04:18   #31
dennis580
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Blackadder I feel everything you said is a POSITIVE not a negative. Why in the hell should you automatically get oil. The game wouldn't be any fun if it was easy to get the resources you needed. I feel the same way about war-time weariness, pollution, and corruption. These things are suppose to challenge you and hinder your progress. This is what makes the game fun.
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Old November 2, 2001, 04:31   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by randomturn
oil makes the world go round. it has driven every conflict for 100 years, and everything in the modern world depends on it. I have no problem with Civ3 end-games being so oil dependent, or occasionally losing games that I was winning because of the situation Blackadar1 describes, as it means we have a more realistic game. I do have a few gripes but this isn't one of them.
Realism is good, but sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for playability.
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Old November 2, 2001, 04:32   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by samsmithnz
I ahve a question regarding this oil/rubber thing. I don't have civ3 yet, cos i live down under, but what happens when you save just before you research oil? Does the oil resource always appear in the same place, or is it completely random?

Also, what happens when You discover oil, and you find it's only in your opponents land, but they are still in the dark ages and haven't discovered oil yet. Can you still trade for it???
Someone please answer this!!
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Old November 2, 2001, 05:59   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkside


Yes but enough to merit a disruption in the city's regular functioning? Just look at the overhwheming % of people in favor of war (up in 80s after first few weeks) Look at all the people who suddenly realized our country has a flag and decided to display it in any way they can. These riots you speak of nothing more then "peaceful congregations" in my book.
Yes, but the war has lasted approximately 1 month so far. One turn in modern era Civ3 equals 1 year.
The thing you are talking about is the "initial happiness". Wait and see what happens if a war in Afghanistan drags on for 5-6 years
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Old November 2, 2001, 07:13   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElitePersian


Someone please answer this!!
If a civilization has not yet discovered the technology required to find a resource, they cannot yet trade with it even if it exists within their territory.
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Old November 2, 2001, 07:15   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by randomturn
oil makes the world go round. it has driven every conflict for 100 years, and everything in the modern world depends on it. I have no problem with Civ3 end-games being so oil dependent, or occasionally losing games that I was winning because of the situation Blackadar1 describes, as it means we have a more realistic game. I do have a few gripes but this isn't one of them.
It's a huge overstatement to say that every conflict in the last 100 years has been driven by oil, when in fact the opposite is true in spades.The best that can be said is that there have been some conflicts over oil in the 20th century as opposed to none previously.

I am enjoying the game, but I do see the design flaw. The reason we are used to petroleum powered war machines etc. is because oil has been readily available for 150 years. Had oil been incredibly scarce it's not like we would have never done anything with the research time. Perhaps our tanks and ships would not be as powerful as they would have been with plenty of oil to power them, perhaps they would have been delayed in development, and perhaps they would have been nearly impossible to produce, leading warfare in a completely different direction. It just doesn't seem likely that a Civ which is developing the leading edge technologies would do so for techs it has no way of realizing.
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Old November 2, 2001, 07:39   #37
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OK, I have a problem with something which is a gameplay issue regarding special units.

Now you know you can upgrade units to the next by paying gold. Now I am playing the French and I have recently acquired gunpowder and I have tons of saltpeter within my border. So obviously, I can build musketeers in abundance. However, I cannot upgrade any of my previous units (spearmen or pikemen) to musketeers. Is there a problem here linking units in an upgrade line to the special unit? Is there a way around this, a fix I can use?

Thanks.
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Old November 2, 2001, 07:42   #38
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Well i have a suggestion for a mod concerning strategic resources:

When a civilization doesnt have a certain resource on the map, for example oil, it SHOULD still be able to produce units that require oil, but in VERY LIMITED amounts.

Here is a scenario that would make this mod interesting:

for example lets say im playing as the Japanese, and the Americans are on a different island and they have all the oil, we are both equally advanced as far as science, however, the americans have a hold of oil, and i dont. Lets say the most advanced offensive unit i can produce at this time is Armor(tank). Now since i dont have oil, i can only produce say 6 of them, so i build those 6 tanks and i go to the americans' continent with 6 tanks (since anything less advanced wouldnt allow me to take over the oil source on their continent). I kill a couple of cities of theirs with my tanks and secure the oil source.
Now if i had to use any other unit that is less advanced, i would not be able to destroy their defenses in the cities i took over.

This balances out the game nicely, and implements the "invasion for resources" strategy.
Let me know what you guys think!!
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Old November 2, 2001, 07:48   #39
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Re: Open letter to Firaxis...problems with Civ III
Quote:
Originally posted by Blackadar1
I wasn't strong enough, nor did I wish to, invade my competitor for oil.
Cry me a river, why dont you. Thats the story of civilization. Eithier you are strong enough to get what you need or you die. The probelm here isnt that oil was required. The problem is that you werent strong enough to take it. Get used to it. Three cheers to firaxis for modeling such a critical part of human history and adding a challenging and interesting dimension to the game.

-Nader
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Old November 2, 2001, 08:08   #40
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Here's my two cents for what it's worth.

Games that are frustrating tend to go on my never play again shelf. Civ II proudly resides on my HD along with Alpha. CIV III is shortly headed for the shelf or a refund. Here's why...

I enjoy the diversity in the game and the elements that make resources so important, but it's just that seems it is too important. After all this is just a game, isn't it? And playing a game where I have a less than 20% chance of getting the resources I need, and not to win, but just to be able to particpate or put up a defense. I truly think in the next patch Firaxis should address this issue. The resource angle is to steep a price to pay after playing countless hours on end and over 6000 years.

Here on lovely planet Earth, Oil is not found in just a few places, but on every continent. All continents have oil accesible and being drilled as we speak, it is just in what quantity we are able to extract it.

The elements that make up the programming for this in CIV III should assign some continents larger patches of oil and other continents less. Whereas, even though you may have oil, you would be limited in your ability to build more units requiring oil unless you went into armed conflict or peaceful trade. You should not be penalized if the AI doesn't want to trade with you or you are unable to get what you desire.

And I feel something like this should be patched, fixed, rigamarouled and what have you, not just on the oil issue but for all resources.

An example is, playing huge map with continents, 9 CIV's and in the year 1550 the only country with SALTPETER is France, five little piles of it with no country getting any and no country willing to take on the might of France. I am sorry but in my estimation SALTPETER became readily available by this time in our history and in such great quantity that muskets, blunderbusses, pistols, rifles, cannons and so forth were in great use by the time the 1600's rolled around. And many great nations had this resource and some hadn't even met yet.

The game is too resource reliant, and should have been an option in the set up screen, and not a tweak in the editor. I rarely use an editor because I like my fog of war and the next suprise over the hill.

I must say if I have to get stomped by the computer, I would like it to be a fair stomping and not a one sided issue. Had the same problem with CivII but in a different fashion, one nation ruling the roost.

And lastly, the AI should seriously be looked at - the death spiral is nagging this game heavily and there is nothing you can do but kiss your arse good bye. Hey I enjoy getting beaten, but if it's because the programming is too stringent and I must follow a certain path or else, it's just not worth it. I know there is more I want to say but I've been up for 18 hours playing and I need some sleep.

While I understand the you guys, (Firaxis) are proud of your game, I think it does need some looking at. Yes there are gameplay issues, and as always I know Firaxians will take it to heart and address them.

Still sitting on the fence, furtively sneaking glances at my shelf.

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Old November 2, 2001, 08:11   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Thade
Here on lovely planet Earth, Oil is not found in just a few places, but on every continent. All continents have oil accesible and being drilled as we speak, it is just in what quantity we are able to extract it.
Hence my suggestion for a mod - READ MY LAST POST PLEASE!
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Old November 2, 2001, 08:13   #42
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perhaps a better approach would've been to increase the upkeep costs (say triple ?) for units which you don't have the resources to "supply" properly. This would reflect "black market" trading in resources or just that you don't have a convenient big source of oil or whatever, but is instead forced to draw upon little puddles here and there...
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Old November 2, 2001, 08:16   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rakki
perhaps a better approach would've been to increase the upkeep costs (say triple ?) for units which you don't have the resources to "supply" properly. This would reflect "black market" trading in resources or just that you don't have a convenient big source of oil or whatever, but is instead forced to draw upon little puddles here and there...
Im gonna make a new thread including what you said, and what i said in the creations forum....ill credit you with your idea.
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Old November 2, 2001, 08:32   #44
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Hey Elite I am on hundrerd with you. At the very least if they see the number issues and oft repeated we will get some answers or fixes.

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Gotta sleep later!
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Old November 2, 2001, 08:33   #45
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One Hundred :even:

Oops

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Old November 2, 2001, 08:38   #46
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Ok i posted up a thread on the Creation Forum concerning this, using my idea and Rakki's.

Hopefully someone will implement this in a mod.
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Old November 2, 2001, 19:04   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by SuiteSisterMary


If civs should get them automagically, why bother putting them in as resources?
What he's saying (I think) is that youshould be able to se them right from the start, so that you can prepare for your future needs.

(Blackie, please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here..)
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Old November 2, 2001, 19:11   #48
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Quote:
However, I cannot upgrade any of my previous units (spearmen or pikemen) to musketeers. Is there a problem here linking units in an upgrade line to the special unit? Is there a way around this, a fix I can use?
Are the cities that the earlier units in connected, by road to your capital? Or, if on a different continent, harbours with only water squares your technology can cross in between? It's great fun to cut off an outlying city, then wear down their defences; oops they can only build spearmen, with no supply of iron or saltpeter.
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Old November 2, 2001, 20:14   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkside
Soren Johnson Firaxis- to tell you honestly, I was invaded during the middle ages by the Romans because I refused to pay him tribute of 13 gold per turn. He declared war and half my cities went into revolt and I lost a significant source fo revenue to making these people happy. These cities were never owned by the Romans, all my military units are within my borders, the Romans do have nicer culture though but that should not [logically] make a difference.
I don't have the game yet, but I have the sneaking suspicion that your civ was being kept happy by the crack...err...spice/silk/other luxuries from Rome. That makes sense, too.
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Old November 2, 2001, 20:47   #50
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just a few notes,

It seems that some people like how restrictive the resources are, and some people hate it. So my suggestion is that resorce availibility is made an option on the world creation screen. So just like barbarian activity, you can choose to leave strategic resources rare (like now) or plentiful. Me, I would love to have more resources available.

Secondly, we should be able to play with the rules ala civ 2, if we want war dicontent to be rampent fine, but we should be able to turn it down, or off.

In the end I say great job Firaxis, but let us play the game the way we want. More options will = more happy people which will = more sales.

I'm sure that some of you will think me a wimp for not wanting to play on Diety with raging hoards of barbarians with one source of each resource, but hey I play my way you play yours.
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Old November 2, 2001, 21:48   #51
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An idea concerning trade:
why not make water a tradeable resource , to make up for only rivers being the main fresh water resource early on - if you buy water from someone you get increased food.
There have been wars over water in places like the middle east(ongoing) - I just hope resource types and scarcity factors will be fully customisable so we can take advantage of this amazing feature.
Also, spies could be used to steal resources and Naval blockades could actually STEAL resources possibly ( like how Francis Drake stole Spanish gold bullion from south american galleons) ..

Just some ideas for more resource balancing if its needed.
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Old November 2, 2001, 21:59   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigBopper
just a few notes,

It seems that some people like how restrictive the resources are, and some people hate it. So my suggestion is that resorce availibility is made an option on the world creation screen. So just like barbarian activity, you can choose to leave strategic resources rare (like now) or plentiful. Me, I would love to have more resources available.

Secondly, we should be able to play with the rules ala civ 2, if we want war dicontent to be rampent fine, but we should be able to turn it down, or off.

In the end I say great job Firaxis, but let us play the game the way we want. More options will = more happy people which will = more sales.

I'm sure that some of you will think me a wimp for not wanting to play on Diety with raging hoards of barbarians with one source of each resource, but hey I play my way you play yours.
I agree wholeheartedly, and the editor gives you the power and flexibility to do this. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone creates a "Civ II Rules Mod" which will allow you to play Civ III in a style more similar to Civ II.

Dan
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Old November 2, 2001, 22:02   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
OK, I have a problem with something which is a gameplay issue regarding special units.

Now you know you can upgrade units to the next by paying gold. Now I am playing the French and I have recently acquired gunpowder and I have tons of saltpeter within my border. So obviously, I can build musketeers in abundance. However, I cannot upgrade any of my previous units (spearmen or pikemen) to musketeers. Is there a problem here linking units in an upgrade line to the special unit? Is there a way around this, a fix I can use?

Thanks.
Were the units in a city with a barracks? Or build Art of War for all cities.
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Old November 2, 2001, 23:52   #54
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The problem is that the resource model is too simple.

Reality falls in two flavors here - stuff you can't build without and stuff you can't operate without.

In neither case is one source enough for all. The sources should be more common, which would make it unlikely somebody would get none at all.

For stuff you can't build without (iron, aluminum, etc...) the number of sources you control would determine the number of cities which could build using that resource simultaneously - one source per city. If you lacked an available source, the units that need it to build would be greyed out.

For oil, you would get so many "oil points" per turn from each source you control. Each time a unit requiring oil moves, it would cost an oil point. This should be a running total, or maybe you would have to build storage capacity if you want to save unused oil point.

Luxury spending should also consume oil points at some rate when you discover motorized transportation.

Coal would work like oil for coal-burning units. Power plants would also consume coal proportional to the industrial output of the city (not nukes or hydro, of course).

You should also consume a coal point for every "x" railroad squares you control. Maybe after a certain time that would switch to oil.

One source of uranium per civilization probably is enough.

More complex, but if you want it to work realistic...
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Old November 3, 2001, 00:10   #55
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Hmmm.. is it just me or is the terrain generator a lil crazy with the ole Jungles?
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Old November 3, 2001, 00:11   #56
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btw.. Barnacle Bill.. sounds like maybe a lil too much managing.. ahh what am I saying? who plays Civ and dosen't like managing stuff? heh.. anyway.. that would make one hell of a cool addition.. maybe Civ 4?
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Old November 3, 2001, 00:41   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by samsmithnz
I ahve a question regarding this oil/rubber thing. I don't have civ3 yet, cos i live down under, but what happens when you save just before you research oil? Does the oil resource always appear in the same place, or is it completely random?
All the resources are placed when the world map is created, so every time you load, it will be in the same place. I know, because in the Civ3 editor, you can place resources on the map, and what would be the point if it was randomized later?
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Old November 3, 2001, 00:44   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Executor


All the resources are placed when the world map is created, so every time you load, it will be in the same place. I know, because in the Civ3 editor, you can place resources on the map, and what would be the point if it was randomized later?
Right, just like the starting points.

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Old November 4, 2001, 01:16   #59
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hmmm, i guess this does make a bit of sense.

Thanks for answering the questions guys.
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Old November 4, 2001, 02:20   #60
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I posted this on the Civ fanatics forum but since this forum seems to be actively monitored by Firaxis employees will add my info here as well

IMO of course. Feel free to agree, disagree, add, or even flame....hell its a free country. Not saying that all these need to be addressed....or even any of them for that matter, just giving my opinion.

1) Battle system needs improvement
a) Using bombarding units as a whole just plain stink. By the time you
make enough bombarding units to deal some substancial damage, you could of
made the same number of direct melee units which work much better. I have
yet to find a scenario where bombarding units proved to be more worthwhile
than direct melee units.
b) The way that the game calculates outcome of battles should be documented.
Sure it tells you the super simple way in the book, but does not have any
info on where modfiers for terrain, river crossing are plugged in. Plus it
does not document how bombardment calculations are done to determine what
gets hit (walls, population, improvements, units).
c) There is NO bonuses for offensive attacks vs multiple for defensive.
That combined with firepower being removed and unit hp only being effected
by the units combat expertice (used to be based on the units
technology...think it was 10 for ancient units 20 for units that used
gunpowder and 30 for units who used steel from Civ2 if I remember), makes
for a very one sided defensive game and also makes more modern units only slightly better than their 1 age behind counterparts. Well, fortresses give free hits but it
does not multiply a units attack rating. Its usually better to send out
defensive units and fortifiy them on your borders to weaken your opponents
then make offensive ones and send them after the computer.
d) Even with the effects of C, it seems that the computer is luckier than
it should be on the outcome of battles, even on Chieftan difficulty. For
example it is not uncommon for a computer control regular warrior to kill a
defending elite spearman who is fortified on a hill. Plus the computer
seems more able to go through my elite spearmen like a hot knife through
butter while they are denfeding my cities.
e) With C and D, most cases tactics be damned since they seldom work. You
have to make mass number of units and throw em at the computer. Usually
have to make 5 vetran units for each defensive unit the computer has,
reguardless of its skill levels of the defenders.

2) More game info needs to be documented
a) Some might argue it might ruin the gameplay....but remember this is a TBS
(turn based stradegy). So its like a board game....and who here wants to
play a board game without knowing exactly how the game plays.

3) Corruption is WAY out of hand
a) Some people state that its to prevent ICS (infinite city sprawl). If you
wind up expanding too quickly you will not have time to build up their
defences and chances are you will loose em to the computer anywho. I like
playing on tiny maps and in one game after I defeated all the computer
opponents I was able to build over 40 cities on the tiny map and no have
city zone overlap. After researching this more I find out that they coded
an "optimal" number of cities you can make on each map before experiecing a
corruption penalty. Well for tiny maps its only 8 cities! Remember I was
able to build 43 cities on a tiny map with no overlap. At least 1/4 of my
cities were experiencing OVER 90% loss to corruption to commerce and
productio. My empire overall was loosing 60% of its income to corruption
even though I was playing on chieftan difficulty, and I was a commercial
empire (lowers corruption), and over half my cities had courthouses, and I
had the forbidden temple build away from my capital, and I had little
unhappyness, and that I was a DEMOCRACY! So everything I could do to lower
corruption I did but even with this I had of 60% corruption loss empire
wide.
b) Courthouses are weak in their effect to combat loss to corruption.

4) AI Cheating (or at least bending the rules)
a) The computer seems to grow in technology and in number of cities than
what should be possible (even on Cheiftan).
b) Seem to be quite lucky repeatively in battles
c) Can spawn new cities in even though you have them blocaded so their
settlers would have no way of getting through your blocade. I verified this
by comparing game dates with the replay at the end.

5) Pollution is kinda hard to combat
a) Pollution is hard to combat because a number of things. First of all
since research is slower in Civ3 it takes longer before you get
anti-pollution improvements researched.
b) Anti-pollution improvements have been pushed farther down the tech tree.
Unlike in Civ2 where mass transit (mass production) and recycling
(recycling) came in the insutrial range of the tech and solar plants
(enviromentalism) in the modern range....now all 3 are in the modern age
(ecology & recycling). This almost forces you not to build hospitals and
factories until you get to modern age even though you get factories and
hospitals in the middle of the industrial age. If you don't wait and build hospitals and factories right when you get the technology...your
workers will be doing nothing but non stop pollution clean up for over a hundred turns while you wait for the modern era.
c) Plus if you do not have to proper strategic resources you can not make
improvements to combat pollution.

6) Other
a) Research speed needs to be tweeked a bit...seems kinda slow. If
corruption is reduced it will help speed this up since the new commerce that
is freed up by reducing corruption will be diverted to science, tax and
happyness.
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