The list of missing standard features.

[Kautilya]

While I think the core gameplay is decent, I am quite disappointed with the sheer number of features which are standard in these kinds of games which have been left out.

Most of these are familiar but I think it's useful to make a list to get an idea of the magnitude of the problem. Also it might be useful for people who haven't followed the game closely.

I am using SMAC as the standard for the most part but many of these features are there in Civ 2/CTP2 as well.


1)No Multiplayer
2)No scenarios
3)No tech poster. And to add insult to injury they added the crappiest poster imaginable in the LE.
4)No wonder movies.
5)Incomplete scenario editor
6)Can't fix starting positions in scenarios.
7) No cheat mode. This was useful for strong players to give the AI some advantage and for weak players to gain an advantage. While you can make adjustments before the game with the editor you apparently can make adjustment in the middle of the game any longer
8)Can't change warning preferenes. The only preferences that you can change seem to be audio-visual ones. You could customize preferences a lot better in SMAC.
9)Basic info left out of manual: I may be wrong here but there doesn't seem to be any table with information about city improvments; their costs and benefits etc.. The SMAC tables were organized much better.
10) Really crappy world maps.

Some of these things will be patched hopefully but I don't think it is right to include standard features only in patches. For one thing downloading pathces can be a pain especially for those with dial-up connections. For another at the time of release there is no guarantee what feature will be included later.

Not all these things are important but if you add them up there will be at least a couple of features which are useful to someone. Overall it's impossible to deny that the game was rushed.

Any other "standard features" that I have missed?

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Kautilya

1)No Multiplayer

You guys need to understand and accept that turn-based games are not conducive to MP. That is what RTS games like Warcraft are for.

2)No scenarios

Yeah, this sucked. But the mod community is usually going to make the best ones anyway.

3)No tech poster. And to add insult to injury they added the crappiest poster imaginable in the LE.

You know, this WAS insulting. Four screen captures! Probably the absolute worst tech poster in the history of the series.

4)No wonder movies.

That's really just one-shot eye candy for most players. I don't miss them.

5)Incomplete scenario editor

They said they will improve this with a patch.

6)Can't fix starting positions in scenarios.

Agreed; this is lame.

7) No cheat mode. This was useful for strong players to give the AI some advantage and for weak players to gain an advantage. While you can make adjustments before the game with the editor you apparently can make adjustment in the middle of the game any longer

Well, I never used the Cheat mode to improve my position, but I did use it every once in a while to verify that, yes, the AI is beating me by cheating!

8)Can't change warning preferenes. The only preferences that you can change seem to be audio-visual ones. You could customize preferences a lot better in SMAC.
9)Basic info left out of manual: I may be wrong here but there doesn't seem to be any table with information about city improvments; their costs and benefits etc.. The SMAC tables were organized much better.

Not big issues for me.

10) Really crappy world maps.

Someone has already fixed this in the Civ3-Files forum.

Some of these things will be patched hopefully but I don't think it is right to include standard features only in patches. For one thing downloading pathces can be a pain especially for those with dial-up connections. For another at the time of release there is no guarantee what feature will be included later.

Not all these things are important but if you add them up there will be at least a couple of features which are useful to someone. Overall it's impossible to deny that the game was rushed.

Any other "standard features" that I have missed?

PUBLIC WORKS!

I know CtP is maligned by Civers, but it did have some really nice features. Public works was near the top.

And don't forget the Theocracy and Fundamentalism governments. Those were good ideas, too.

[Kyle]

1)No Multiplayer : Couldn't care less...

2)No scenarios : No biggie, the two that came with Civ2 were't that good. The players make better ones.

3)No tech poster. And to add insult to injury they added the crappiest poster imaginable in the LE.: Not sure what you wanted. It was the tech tree, shown on four or so panels. It's actually useful since it's not some huge poster.

4)No wonder movies. : Hmm, wondering why they never started up.

5)Incomplete scenario editor : Don't use it, but it'll be fixed I'm sure.

6)Can't fix starting positions in scenarios. : Indeed, can see where this can be annoying, but out of the gate, it's not a big deal. I'll be playing straight up games for a long time.

7) No cheat mode. : Agreed.

8)Can't change warning preferenes. : Not clear as to what you're talking about here.


9)Basic info left out of manual: Damn, still haven't had a chance to even look at the manual.

10) Really crappy world maps. : Haven't used them yet.



Some good points, but some are nitpicky. And I have to agree with Ray K. Public works definitely should've been included as an option.

[Christantine The Great]

1) I won't even try.
2) Make your own. The ones that came with MGE were considered crap by lots of people.
3) You really don't need a poster anymore. Unlike SMAC and CivII you can see the entire tech tree instead of just tiny segments. I do admit, the LE poster was crap.
4) This was announced AGES ago and it does not deserve to be called a feature.
5) Read above.
6) Probably be in the up and coming editor patch.
7) Not a big issue. Get used to it.
8) Elaborate. What ones are big problems?
9) That's what the Civilopedia is for.
10) See 2.

[donarumo]

Considering none of your issues affect actual gameplay (something that has been missed by some people in these forums), I think "the magnitude of the problem" is small, very small.

Look, the addictive play is still there and has been extremely and pleasantly improved - that is what is important. The complaints you make will be non-issues in a couple of months.

[Setsuna]

I miss the cheat mode. It was fun for arbitrarily deciding that the enemy you're mopping the floor with could use a little reinvigorating.

"Hmm. The Russians are now the __Superdude Alliance__. Their leader is now __Pope Schlomo__. I'm giving them new technology and making them Fundamentalist."

*Adds 200 military units for the Superdude Alliance*


Besides, the real game never simulated *real* internal power shifts. :P

[Kautilya]

Um this wasn't supposed to be a list of personal complaints but just a list of missing features. I don't care too much about many of the things listed but other people do. Like I said they have left out so many standard features that someone is bound to be pissed off about one thing or the other.

Since these are standard features I don't feel that leaving them out of a high-profile game is justified.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great
7) Not a big issue. Get used to it.

Apparently it is, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of people who outright refuse to buy the game because of it.

[Pggar]

Originally posted by Kautilya
Um this wasn't supposed to be a list of personal complaints but just a list of missing features. I don't care too much about many of the things listed but other people do. Like I said they have left out so many standard features that someone is bound to be pissed off about one thing or the other.

Since these are standard features I don't feel that leaving them out of a high-profile game is justified.

I couldn't agree more. It isn't a "analyze the things I think is missing" thread.

I don't have the game yet, but a lot of people are complaining that there is no way to upgrade groups of units, you have to do it one by one. For those with the game, is this true?

[Ned]

I too think the lack of an automatic zoom to the city manager of a city in disorder is really annoying.

Also, and maybe I just don't know how to do this yet, but how does one see all the units stacked on a square, including what they are doing and what condition they are in? The reason I ask is that I moved a worker into a square with another worker already mining or irrigating, but I could not remember which. The new unit covered the one previously there so I could not see it or what it was doing. Clicking on the square simply brought up a list of options including whether I wanted to activate the other unit. But there was no information about what that unit was doing.

In Alpha Centauri, you had a window where you could see all the units on a square and what they were doing. But not having this information is a real killer, IMHO.

I am not very far into the game yet to give an opinion, but my initial reaction is negative.

Ned

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by Pggar
I don't have the game yet, but a lot of people are complaining that there is no way to upgrade groups of units, you have to do it one by one. For those with the game, is this true?

No. Shift-U upgrades all upgradeable units of the type you currently have selected. I think you need to have the unit in a city with a barracks/harbor in order to be upgrade it, so not all units will be affected by this command.

[Provost Harrison]

One thing I noticed that was missing was the actual physical presence of the great wall or great canal (latter not here any more). That would have been cool, but oh well.

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by Kautilya
1)No Multiplayer
2)No scenarios
3)No tech poster. And to add insult to injury they added the crappiest poster imaginable in the LE.
4)No wonder movies.
5)Incomplete scenario editor
6)Can't fix starting positions in scenarios.
7) No cheat mode. This was useful for strong players to give the AI some advantage and for weak players to gain an advantage. While you can make adjustments before the game with the editor you apparently can make adjustment in the middle of the game any longer
8)Can't change warning preferenes. The only preferences that you can change seem to be audio-visual ones. You could customize preferences a lot better in SMAC.
9)Basic info left out of manual: I may be wrong here but there doesn't seem to be any table with information about city improvments; their costs and benefits etc.. The SMAC tables were organized much better.
10) Really crappy world maps.

1) Well, please go ahead and throw rocks at me, but I hope they don't get around to the Multiplayer in 3894 years. They can do other stuff to help the game, and then work on Multiplayer.

2) Yeah, that sucks, but not too much (few scenarios in any other civ, and they get made independently anyway). Hopefully we'll see some Firaxis ones come up for download, but don't cross your fingers - there are better issues to complain about for nw

3) Pretty bad. I hope for a printable one, now that it's too late. The poster was far easier than the Civilopedia, and better, and cooler. YOU EVEN HAD A POSTER IN TEST OF TIME! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!

4) I skipped those. Not too terribly important. Actually, further down my list than multiplayer.

5) NOW THIS SUCKS. But they are working on it, to their credit.

6) This also sucks, and I hope that goes into revitalizing the editor.

7) I liked cheat mode. I doubt it would be too hard to implement. I'm pretty sure the take-out was a conscious decision, which annoyingly means this probably won't be "fixed".

8) I wouldn't know, sounds cool though

9) A good Tech poster would have solved this issue.

10) Bah, humbug.

[Imran Siddiqui]

3)No tech poster. And to add insult to injury they added the crappiest poster imaginable in the LE.

Oh, come on. It isn't THAT bad. It is a decent looking poster (when you don't have the game running). Not anything as good as the SMAC poster, but not crap.

[TheDarkside]

Maybe you don't care about cheat mode but I relied on it!

I use it to edit the rate at which civs research technology. Everytime I used to play civ2 I'd make it much longer to research things, because I am annoyed with starting to build a state of the art unit which gets obsolete by the time its done being built. I really only like to play long slow-paced games so I have time to really get into the different periods of time. But in Civ3, theres no cheat mode, the editor is ineffective, and theres no simpel text file for me to edit to make the tech the way I like to play. If I can't find a way to edit tech so it takes a long time then I really can't play... I cant stand the fast paced normal way of playing.

[Setsuna]

I sure hope Firaxis realizes what a mistake leaving cheat mode out was and decide to re-implement it.

[Admiral PJ]

No cheat mode? aww Its a minor problem , but I do like to put on the cheat mode on civ2, and reveal map to watch the computer play with itself when my brains overloading from too much playing.

FIRAXIS please allow the no human player option as a cheat in Civ3. (I don't have it yet to verify the information)

AdmiralPJ
Maker of the game Mantra - and god said let there be man-tra

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Kautilya
Um this wasn't supposed to be a list of personal complaints but just a list of missing features. I don't care too much about many of the things listed but other people do. Like I said they have left out so many standard features that someone is bound to be pissed off about one thing or the other.

Since these are standard features I don't feel that leaving them out of a high-profile game is justified.

Sorry, but... WRONG ...

None of these "features" are features to play the game except maybe MP. Everything else is EXTRA. Get that, EXTRA.

1. Should be MP, but no Civ game ever had MP out of the original box (SMAC isn't Civ in name so not the same series, even though by the same company).

2. Big deal, the typical scenarios included in Civ2 were mediocre at best. Would you rather have scenarios or better game play? I'd rather play most scenarios made by the folks who do it for love of the game and not developers trying to cram some things in at the last minute.

3. So what? I looked at the posters maybe two or three times and then used notes or had already memorized the techs I wanted. There is a tech poster, it comes in the LE.

4. More eye candy. 99% of the people I knew who played the game turned these off after seeing them the first few times anyway. I am glad they spent more time working on AI and game balance than useless items like wonder movies and I am sure most people who care about GAME PLAY feel the same.

5. Going to be fixed. You act as if Firaxis is called Activision and is planning to not support the game. So people have to wait to make mods, so what? Gives them more time to learn how the game pace flows and how things interact.

6. See number 5.

7. Umm, gee, can't cheat? Wah, guess experienced players will have to hinder themselves by trying less cities, different strategies, etc. People who are less experienced get to start at easier levels. Cheat mode is a crutch anyway, the editor will be much better once they finish it.

8. How many times do we have to say, this isn't SMAC, it's not Civ2, this is a NEW game. Get used to it.

9. "Basic info" left out? Where? I look in the Civilopedia and it's all there. What's missing? Oh, you mean they were supposed to spend more money and time making extra stuff, when the electronic version is already in the game?? Ouch, I hope people don't strain their mouse fingers having to click through the Civilopdeia and strain their fingers writing down notes about important things.

10. There are better maps put out by people already. See #2 above.

You are right, none of these things make or break the game. So the game doesn't have all the eye candy you want, and? THe game play is MUCH better than Civ2 and SMAC, and much more indepth. I am GLAD they spent the resources where it counts, on AI and game enhancement, not stupid, assinine things like wonder movies and cheat modes.

Oh, and as long as you keep posting whines complaining about dinky, insiginificant issues expect people to show how idiotic the posts are. Complaining about wonder movies for example is like complaining that your car, which is designed to handle better than anything else on the road, never break down, and overall to be the best example of the type ever made, didn't come with fuzzy dice hanging from the rear-view mirror.

If you want to complain then talk about REAL issues, like unbalanced AI, game interface, etc. Don't waste time complaining that this game isn't exactly like every other game in looks when it plays much, much better unless you want to have people post how minor your "features" are.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by Ozymandous

7. Umm, gee, can't cheat? Wah, guess experienced players will have to hinder themselves by trying less cities, different strategies, etc. People who are less experienced get to start at easier levels. Cheat mode is a crutch anyway, the editor will be much better once they finish it.

Why do people feel the need to dictate what people can and cannot do in the game they payed for, especially when it doesn't affect them? Why people get angry at people who just want to have *fun* with an innocuous feature?

If we were talking about multiplayer, that's another story, but we aren't.

And as has been stated, cheat mode is used for so much more than just easy wins.

Besides, there are no easy skill levels in Civ III - Chieftain will send inexperienced players reeling all the way back to the electronics store.

[Mongoloid Cow]

The incomplete scenario editor, removed cheat mode and the random placement of civs only are the only things on the list I actually care about. Even the original Civ had pre-defined starting locations for each civ. And saving the game, checking the map and loading the game was also a good thing.

At least they'll be working on the scenario editor!

[BigBopper]

I would love to see more customizability as a standard feature in the game. My biggest gripe is resource rarity, how hard would have it been to change this in the world creation screen just like setting the barbarian level.


As for the flamers out there, I just wish we had the ability to play the game as we wanted. You play your way, I'll play mine.

As for the editors and mods that will cover many of these issues we should have choices out of the box, like were used too with civ2 and SMAC and even wanna be's like CTP.

P.S. I am in no way bashing firaxis, they are great, CIV III is really good, I just think it could use a few things changed.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by BigBopper
I would love to see more customizability as a standard feature in the game.

Me too. My kingdom for a Custom difficulty setting!

[CobraA1]

Originally posted by Ray K



PUBLIC WORKS!

I know CtP is maligned by Civers, but it did have some really nice features. Public works was near the top.

And don't forget the Theocracy and Fundamentalism governments. Those were good ideas, too.

I hated public works. Took me forever to get roads, etc. built. Not to mention that I had a tendency to forget to build them once I had enough PW to do so. Putting a limit by making them "cost" some sort of money made it very expensive to have any type of infastructure. I like the Civ method better; I don't have to "spend" anything to build roads, so I can build as many as I want .

[Christantine The Great]

Apparently it is, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of people who outright refuse to buy the game because of it.

What? Two people decided not to buy the game because they couldn't cheat. I'm sorry these supposed people didn't want to play without a crutch. The Cheat mode was for making scenarios, not making the AI "harder" by giving it extra units. If you want a challenge then let the AI expand or start over.

So what you're saying is that all new cars should alwasy come with a tape deck and will always come with a tape deck (up until the time that CDs are obesolete and beyond) because a tape deck happened to be a standard feature on a car built in the early 1980s?

Should your mother put a diaper on your bottom every day because it used to be a standard feature of your life when you were young?

[mattbolas]

Biggest feature that should have been left out is the silly resource Idea. Great way to take the fun out of toiling for hours to get the knowledge only to realize that don't have the resource to build it. Horrible change to Civ 2

Can't change start locations is a loser as well.

The so called streamlined interface sucks as well. At least with the CIV 2 pull down menus you could actually find everything.

I can't believe Sid actually play tested this game.
They have got to fix these problems.

[Kautilya]

I should have known that even the most moderate criticism would have drawn a bunch of die-hard whingers.

I never claimed that the missing features were part of core game-play but since when has core game-play been the only thing that matters?

Even a paper manual or graphics above the minimum aren't strictly necessary for gameplay but I don't think people would have been too happy if Civ 3 had been released without these things.

The fact is that most players care about at least 2 or 3 things on my list so that adds up to whole of bunch of partly disappointed customers. If they had just taken some more time or hired a few more programmers they could have avoided this. A big project like Civ 3 ,which will likely sell millions, deserves this.

And with a mass-market game like Civ3 it is likely that a majority of players will be relative newbies who probably won't know about or bother with patches or downloadable scenarios but who do really like things like wonder movies. These extras would have contributed a great deal to their enjoyment of the game.

[treedom]

I think that the only legitimate point on that list is the incomplete scenario designer. But, since that's the one they said they'd be fixing in a patch, it's a moot point. Until the patch is released, I'm probably gonna still be immersed with the standard random maps anyway.

And, if it's a question of the principle of relasing it incomplete, well, to tell you the truth, I'd rather be playing the standard game now, minus the escenarios, than not having the game at all for another month, so they can polish the scenario editor.

It's fair to complain about those things, I suppose, but anyone that says they won't buy the game because there's no cheat mode is shortchanging themselves.

The *important* things are there; very competent AI, addictive gameplay, and well implemented new features that work (like cultures, resources, leaders). These are features that add more elements to the game. Geez, the resources alone force you to play in a completely different way, as geopolitics becomes a very important factor in the game. And, might I add, these are not cheap-ass features like the public works in CTP. What, really, did that add to the game?

Now, if any of the above things were lacking, then you'd have yourselves a legitimate beef.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great

What? Two people decided not to buy the game because they couldn't cheat. I'm sorry these supposed people didn't want to play without a crutch. The Cheat mode was for making scenarios, not making the AI "harder" by giving it extra units. If you want a challenge then let the AI expand or start over.

The "Two people" number is baseless.

If the "Cheat" mode is for making scenario's, then why is it called Cheats on the menu?

Again, quit trying to tell people what they can and cannot do with a game they paid for. The remark about people making due with the current options if they want a challenge was just stupid.

Look, some people (Not myself) don't have the time for or interest of learning the intricacies of games like Civ III, and would like to enjoy the game now. If someone wants to create 500 units for their side and roll over the AI, let them. If someone wants to construct a specific challenge then why should that irk you? The cheat menu gives the player the option of a sandbox mode; a way to enjoy the game without the constraints of the rules.

It doesn't concern you one bit since it's a single player game. It shouldn't concern Firaxis because money is money.
I suppose you could make the argument that the developers would be hurt that someone would want to play the game differently than they intended. But this isn't the message I'm hearing from Firaxis considering their endorsement of the editor.

If someone tries to do it in multiplayer, THEN you can get angry when they are having fun at the expense of others.

[Travathian]

I miss the wonder movies. I even pulled out CivII just to watch the movies before Civ3 came out. They still look cool.

The biggest gripe is the options, or lack there of. SMAC was chock full of options. To those that say Civ3 isn't SMAC or CivII, sorry, you're wrong, its the same damn game. Just like Warcraft, Warcraft II and Starcraft are all the same game. They may look different, and play ever so slightly differently, they're the same game. Thing is, Blizzard learned from what they did in the first two, which is why Starcraft was so huge. I can't believe Firaxis took a step BACKWARDS from SMAC. There were so many cool options in that game, from pre-game, editing/cheating, and in game notices. Civ3 is such a disappointment in that category, so much gained in SMAC, so much lost in Civ3.

And I love how everyone keeps saying there will be a patch for the editor. How often does Ford bring out a brand new model of Mustang with a cd player that doesn't work from the factory and they know it, and then just tell the public wait a few months and we'll take care of it. I'd be ashamed to work at Firaxis at having put out a half-ass product. Should have just left out the editor and released it when it was done.

Or better yet, do what good game companies do, delay the game until its finished.

[LtChambers]

Originally posted by Travathian
I miss the wonder movies. I even pulled out CivII just to watch the movies before Civ3 came out. They still look cool.

The biggest gripe is the options, or lack there of. SMAC was chock full of options. To those that say Civ3 isn't SMAC or CivII, sorry, you're wrong, its the same damn game. Just like Warcraft, Warcraft II and Starcraft are all the same game. They may look different, and play ever so slightly differently, they're the same game. Thing is, Blizzard learned from what they did in the first two, which is why Starcraft was so huge. I can't believe Firaxis took a step BACKWARDS from SMAC. There were so many cool options in that game, from pre-game, editing/cheating, and in game notices. Civ3 is such a disappointment in that category, so much gained in SMAC, so much lost in Civ3.

And I love how everyone keeps saying there will be a patch for the editor. How often does Ford bring out a brand new model of Mustang with a cd player that doesn't work from the factory and they know it, and then just tell the public wait a few months and we'll take care of it. I'd be ashamed to work at Firaxis at having put out a half-ass product. Should have just left out the editor and released it when it was done.

Or better yet, do what good game companies do, delay the game until its finished.

I have to agree with the movies comment. I was quite disappointed to see a bunch of pictures pop up instead of movies. I've watched the Statue of Liberty and Women's Suffrage videos so many times it's not funny! They were excellently mixed and informative.

Civ1&2 took strategy gaming and melded it with a history lesson - you could play a game while learning things you never knew, like where the Hanging Gardens were actually built and when the Hoover dam was completed. Of course, this stuff is still there in Civ3, in the descriptions, but I'm willing to bet about only 5 people have actually clicked on the description in the Civ3 civilopedia meaning to get the information from it. Civ1's method was the best - forced you to at least look at the screen before you could skip it. This is one of the trends I've noticed over the series... gradually streamlining the game into a pure war-peace-war-peace-build philosophy instead of war-peace-build-learn one!

That leads me into his next point about the lack of preferences. Someone said Civ3 isn't SMAC - well, that's sure true, Civ3 plays completely differently than the other games, though it does combine a lot of the ideas introduced in SMAC. When I first opened the Preferences dialog my first thought was "WEAK!" and that's pretty much where it stands now. Now, maybe they cut down on the preferences because it was confusing the newbies and the morons who tried to play SMAC, but there could at least be a simple and advanced mode or something. If you think about it, this game series isn't SUPPOSED to be streamlined for pure turn to turn action - it's also meant to make you THINK and APPLY!

Anyway, that's enough ranting for now after a nice 4 hour session of Civ3! Yummmmm it's almost dawn! Thanks Firaxis, despite the few shortcomings!