How To Stop AI Invasions...? :o

Eli · November 2, 2001, 17:52

Chieftain level, my first game.
I have 10 big cities, and borders with Egypt and Rome. Peace with Egypt, war with Rome.
One turn I see some Roman Legion near the Delphi borders and send a horseman to check what's going on there. Two turns later aproximately 20 Legions come from the right and the left of the city. I start building lots of Musketmen everywhere but when they are ready Delphi is already razed and the Legions are on a 3 squares distance from another city.
Few turns later, after my brave Fortified Suicider Hoplites are dead I get some reinfocements in the targeted city but that doesnt help. The Legions destroy the Musketmen with almost no problems, thus efectively cutting my empire into two.
Of course that the Egyptians found a great time to build a city just in the middle of the rest of my empire thus not allowing me to move troops.

Few turns later Athens is taken, 12 Legions left. Then they easily take the poorly defended small Caesaria(culturely-taken from Rome earlier) and nothing stands between them and occupying 3 more big cities with the Sistine Chapel in one of them.
At this point I decide that I made too much mistakes, quit the game and decide to start a new one on the Huge Earth map.

All this, on chieftain level.
What did I do wrong? How can you stop such invasions? And how can you discover the AI plans earlier?

Again,

.

albiedamned · November 2, 2001, 18:12

From all accounts, the AI is much better at attacking in Civ3 than in Civ2. So what I think you did wrong more than anything else was to underestimate the AI. As soon as you were at war with Rome, you should have been building and fortifying multiple defensive units in all your cities near the border, as well as readying mobile units to quickly move to attack any invaders. It sounds like you didn't start to build up for the war until after they invaded, but by then it was too late.

You also should have considered sending some of your own forces into Roman territory. Even if you didn't have enough to take a city, you could still send in a few horsemen or other mobile units to go after his supply lines. Find his iron and pillage the road, then see how many more legions he sends at you!

mbarloewen · November 2, 2001, 18:21

I had the exact same experience last night in my very first Civ 3 game. I was sure I had contained the Germans on my eastern front but when we went to war they swarmed me with mounted troops (Still in Ancient age) and their quickness and ability to retreat completely outclassed my armies of swordsman. I hadn't built enough defensive units in my cities and it was long before I was begging for peace. Bottom line is I thought I was playing the CIV 2 AI and learned a hard lesson about how much better the computer is in organizing their military.

I find this really exciting as it definitely adds realism to the experience.

Civ 3 - New strategies needed!

Eli · November 2, 2001, 18:23

Quote:

Originally posted by albiedamned
From all accounts, the AI is much better at attacking in Civ3 than in Civ2. So what I think you did wrong more than anything else was to underestimate the AI. As soon as you were at war with Rome, you should have been building and fortifying multiple defensive units in all your cities near the border, as well as readying mobile units to quickly move to attack any invaders. It sounds like you didn't start to build up for the war until after they invaded, but by then it was too late.

You also should have considered sending some of your own forces into Roman territory. Even if you didn't have enough to take a city, you could still send in a few horsemen or other mobile units to go after his supply lines. Find his iron and pillage the road, then see how many more legions he sends at you!

After some thinking, my mistakes were:

A) Building too disperse cities. I was 100% sure that when the border expands the city can use the new tiles too.

So I had lots of unused space and therefore it was difficult to move units quickly from different parts of the empire.
B) As you said, underestimating the AI. I was used to Civ2, and because of that I:
C) Was sure that 3 AI Legions will not defeat a fortified Hoplite on Chieftain level.
D) I was in Democracy, and in Civ2 it's quite hard to keep a big army at this stage of the game with Democracy so my army was very small. 2 hoplites/musketmen in every city. 7-8 Longbowmen, who were mainly on other front and it took too long to bring them to the Roman front(see A) and the rest are workers.
Now when I think about it I could at least double it at the cost of reducing luxury to 10%(I had the Sistine Chapel).
E) No significant border fortifications - We should think more about how to implement this idea with not growing or very slowly growing empires.

Knight · November 2, 2001, 18:42

Wars in the Ancient and Midievel period tend to stalemate pretty quickly. The resources and production needed to fight the AI is so catastrophic that you have almost nothing left for infrastructure. This leads me to the conclusion that early wars are to be avoided nearly at all costs. I got overwhelmed in two games before I figured out how to effectively stem a mass invasion. Make sure you have multiple Spearmen/Pikemen/Musketmen entrenched in your forwardmost cities. Also have a mobile ready response army in place to counterattack weakened enemy armies. Another great defense is having Catapults entrenched in your cities, ready to bombard armies that come close. Also, keep in mind that if the AI is stalled attacking one city, it'll change focus of attack and try to snag another one. So, keep on your toes and keep troops in reserve to plug the gaps and stop the flood. Counterattacks are nice, but I've never managed to really be able to pull one off. I need to use my offensive units to plug gaps and keep the front line from cracking, keeping me from sending them off to take the war to the enemy. Lastly, having Veteran and Elite units shunted to your front line is a must. Barracks are essential for turning out good defensive units that can step in front of the AI hordes.

Eli · November 2, 2001, 18:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Knight
Lastly, having Veteran and Elite units shunted to your front line is a must. Barracks are essential for turning out good defensive units that can step in front of the AI hordes.

There is one major problem with that.
You attack with your elite unit, it wins and moves to the square where the defender stood. Next turn it's dead.

So they are best used from cities or fortresses against stacks.

treedom · November 2, 2001, 19:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli

There is one major problem with that.
You attack with your elite unit, it wins and moves to the square where the defender stood. Next turn it's dead.

That's when I use my pikemen. I bring them along with the main force anyway, to hold cities I take, so I always have one close. When a good unit wins a battle, leaving it half dead, and out in the open, I get a pikeman to protect him.

HalfLotus · November 2, 2001, 19:46

If you're worried about invation, line your edge of your border with fortified defenders. Build forts too.
Having smaller border lines is helpful too. I had a very long front line against the persians (immortals are a *****!), which was very hard to defend.

Lawrence of Arabia · November 2, 2001, 19:51

When I play (16 civs, huge map, Regent) i like to get fortresses quickly and then with my Industrious workers, build them along my frontier. A fewtimes, i like to grow my civ to the base of a chain of mountains, and build fortresses on top to keep one flank secured. You put Regular units in there, keep a veteran mobile reserve of horseman, and on your other flanks, put your elite units (if you have any)

HalfLotus · November 2, 2001, 19:54

Yes! It definitely helps to plan according to terrain.

mmtt · November 2, 2001, 20:10

Yeah but in this case the IA mays counter you large fortresses along the border.

Imagine:
You(industrious) vs Persia
Near another IA

You build many fortresses to protect your border vs the immortals.

But Persia does a passage accord vs the other IA and the immortals came from behind.

Your fortresses are until like the Maginot Line (France 1940).

I think the IA can do that.

Light mounted forces ready to go to the border everywhere and some swordsmen(or like that) at the main front.

The subdivision: Main front, sub fronts maybe a new strategy...

In the Industrial Age, the best is a very nice railroad system to defend you border easily.

Maybe there are other tips.

Akron · November 2, 2001, 20:10

What really makes it difficult to stop the ai is that stacks of units must be defeated individually and there are no zones of control in the ancient/middle ages, which means that a single unit fortified on a mountain won't stop the invaders.

Also, what is the point on fortresses other than the +50% bonus? They don't seem to give zones of control as enemy knights have moved right by forts with musketmen and attacked my cities. And units that move by don't seem to take damage either. Am I doing something wrong, or is there no way to get zones of control with fortresses?

Lawrence of Arabia · November 2, 2001, 20:44

Quote:

Your fortresses are until like the Maginot Line (France 1940).

Except not because theres no such thing as mobile warfare in the XXth century BC.

Lightly armed horsemen? They would get spanked by the immortals. The only thing they're good at is keeping impis from retreating during battle. In the age before cannons, these fortresses are useful. In the Modern and Industrial age, they only serve as easy targets for bombers.

Lets do a walk- thru

We assume that were in the age were the immortals are the latest fad. (i.e. strognest unit) All civs have about the same techs

The immortal can do 2 things on attack

(1) Attempt to bash down my fortresses. They would probably fail. Even with catapuls. (cats are good against city's but not against units)
(2) Go around the line, and attack from another side. My swordsmen would get spanked. My Horsemen would be retreating. Nothing rivals the immortal until the Musket man 2/4/1 or the Knight 4/3/2. my only chance would be to have my best swordsman there. They would have to be elite to stand a chance against a regular Immortal. the game would be over, unless you make peace with a neighbor

So heres my new strat.
Make a wall of fortresses along a mountain range against the enemy. Protect your backside with an alliance with another civ

Felch · November 3, 2001, 04:05

It's really pointless. The biggest change in the AI seems to be that it has an amazing knack for ganging up on you even in Chieftain. Earlier I was playing as the Greeks, and even though I didn't lose any cities (Hooray for hoplites) my infrastructure was torn up by the combined, German, Egyptian, English, Russian, French, Indian, Roman armies. At one point out of 15 AI civs, only the Persians were at peace with me. I never declared war on anybody, I never backstabbed, I never demanded tribute, I just minded my own business.

While it used to be easy to handle all the computer civs at once, thanks to ICS, now the only way to survive is to pay enourmous amounts of tribute to utterly bloodthirsty enemies.

I'm not saying it's bad that the computer is aggresive, I just don't think that every AI civ should be inclined to declare war on you for no reason. But, there's nothing you can do about it now I guess.

Grunthex · November 3, 2001, 07:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Felch X
It's really pointless. The biggest change in the AI seems to be that it has an amazing knack for ganging up on you even in Chieftain. Earlier I was playing as the Greeks, and even though I didn't lose any cities (Hooray for hoplites) my infrastructure was torn up by the combined, German, Egyptian, English, Russian, French, Indian, Roman armies. At one point out of 15 AI civs, only the Persians were at peace with me. I never declared war on anybody, I never backstabbed, I never demanded tribute, I just minded my own business.

While it used to be easy to handle all the computer civs at once, thanks to ICS, now the only way to survive is to pay enourmous amounts of tribute to utterly bloodthirsty enemies.

I'm not saying it's bad that the computer is aggresive, I just don't think that every AI civ should be inclined to declare war on you for no reason. But, there's nothing you can do about it now I guess.

Well, it obviously changes from game to game. My current game features 7 of us one continent, and not a single war was fought until 1750 or so AD. They never asked me for tribute, we were all nice and civilized.

The 5 civs on the OTHER continent, now THEY were Barbaric. Wars EVERYWHERE.

I guess what I'm saying is the AI does NOT just declare war on you for no reason, it sounds like in your game they had good reason: You looked weak, and they went for the throat. Good strategy.

Haphazard · November 3, 2001, 09:02

What was the specific situation Felch? Did you have lots of borders? In the middle of a large landmass? Strategic resources that you may/may not have known about? Seemed a bit unfair...

Lord Maxwell · November 3, 2001, 09:55

Well, the AI diplomacy engine is like sharks in water. Once they smell blood they all gang up. I've repeatedly seen two civs going at each other, and then a big block of other civs joining one side. (They all join the same side usually, to divvy up the poor sap or something.)

Isolationist techniques tend to save me.

And for defending. You need bombardment as well. You want to keep them hurt all the time. So bombard them while they stand outside your gates. Counterattack only against stacks so you don't move out into the field.

And you might want to hold off building aqueducts if it looks chancy. City walls are a big help.

Yes, and bribe neighbours before going into anarchy. I managed to go into anarchy to get republic right after building aqueducts in most cities. I can tell you that you loose a lot of cities fast when they grow to size 7 just as the AI takes advantage of that combined with your anarchy.

Lawrence of Arabia · November 3, 2001, 14:59

Here are a few things which I found interesting

(1) The more culture or military that you have, the more they respect you. If you are stronger than the other civ either culturally or with millitary, they will give you good deals.

(2) Expansionist CSA seems like on of the best ones. You send out your scout far from home and contact other civs and make alliances with them, especially the ones in your culture group. Then, they won't all gang up. Sometimes, it helps to have an alliance with another civ who is weak. One game, I had the French near me. They were very weak. To prevent the enemy from taking advantage of them (i.e giving them some techs and then signing a right of passage so they could came and beat me up) I made an alliance with them, and gave them iron for dye. Francw was like my vassal.

(3) Diplomacy is now more important than ever (see 2)

(4) A lot of times, expanding in the direction of your ally is a good idea. Since your borders will be touching (and the AI seems to trade culture for expansion) you might be able to take over some of his cities culturally.

Eli · November 3, 2001, 15:04

Short threadjack - How do I sign alliances? I never got this option on the diplomacy screens.

dainbramaged13 · November 3, 2001, 15:32

well, considering im kicking ass in my game and have already conquered two civs i can provide soem advice... Dont let them get resources... all the best units are made with resources
and
Be the chinese

i think i got lucky picking them because the rider with three moves can beat any ancient age unit, sometimes musketmen, and then even if they win and take the spot, they can still move back into the city, or if youre atacking, back to the rest of the units

Ballz1998 · November 3, 2001, 15:32

If your a peaceloving country with a crappy military compared to the civs, they see one thing. A wimp resource they can exploit. Its perfectly fine to be peaceloving and I believe the way to maintain peace is to keep a strong military force at all times. It's so simple to support an army of STRONG up to date units now theres no reason why any of your Military advisor should say you are weaker than another civ. I find having 50 calvary and 20 cannons throughout my empire right now is a huge deterrent

They all know what will happen if they cross me... and they saw that i will fight because of what happened to the poor little aztecs who decided it would be a good idea to demand tribute lol...

Felch · November 3, 2001, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Haphazard
What was the specific situation Felch? Did you have lots of borders? In the middle of a large landmass? Strategic resources that you may/may not have known about? Seemed a bit unfair...

I wasn't any weaker than any of the others. My army was a bit smaller, but it was all advanced, I suffered practically no losses. It was mostly my hoplites, and knights (all veterans and elite because I had Sun Tzu by then) against warriors, swordsmen, spearmen, archers, and horsemen. The only thing they were able to do was run around and steal my workers, and tear up my roads.

Besides that, I only had a couple resources, two iron in the south, and a horse colony far to the north. I was in a penisula, bordered by the Germans and Indians. Everyone else just allied, and used those right of passage agreements to attack me. I even took out several Indian cities, including Delhi, but they still attacked me.

I played a new game as the Babylonians, and I'm doing really well. This time I just stuck with an archipelago, and I have a pretty good army, so nobody is messing with me.