FIRAXIS: Please fix Printing Press data!

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 20:19

The printing press was NOT invented by Gutenberg in the 15th century! The first metal-type (moveable) printing press was in Korea TWO HUNDRED years earlier! UNESCO has confirmed, also, that Korea has the oldest metal type printed book in existence.

Please, please, please change this! This is prcisely the kind of ways people who don't know any better about other nations CONTINUE to not know any better.

If you need me to help point you to some confirmation of this fact, please let me know. Ouch, this one really bothers me.

Alex 14 · November 3, 2001, 20:28

Gutenburge's printing press most likely made bigger impact on civilization, unless Firaxis doesn't want to confuse people with wonders they've never heard of. It's hard to say because I don't have the game, perhaps they could modify it so it just says 'printing press'.

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 20:29

Korea also has the oldest wood-block print from the 8th century! Not to mention that its MASSIVE wood bock for printing Buddhist text (once destroyed by Khan but then immediately recarved) are considered one of the most important printing and cultural artifacts in the world!

PLEASE! I beg of you ...

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 20:33

Quote:

unless Firaxis doesn't want to confuse people with wonders they've never heard of.

C'mon ... you don't seriously mean what you just wrote.

Now, if Firaxis want to focus on the influence factor, they should at least say something like: "Building on technologies found in Asia and mastered at the time by the Koreans two hundred years earlier, Gutenburg most likely heard of the printing press from stories brought back by Marco Polo. Streamlining the technology and making it have mass appeal, Guternburg and his addition to the printing press tradition helped revolutionize the Western world."

Now that would be fine.

Imran Siddiqui · November 3, 2001, 20:39

Yin, Gutenburg's press was different from the Korean one though. It was easier to mass print many different books using Gutenburg's, and it had a greater influence, including being necessary for the Protestant Reformation to occur.

TCO · November 3, 2001, 20:49

Yin...your outrage is funny!

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 20:52

Sorry if I like the historical record to be acurately reflected in the game.

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 20:53

As I noted: Korea has the oldest wood block printed book, the greatest collection of wood blocks, the oldest metal type printing press and book ... it's a fact Marco Polo brought over word of this technology.

To NOT mention it in the way I have outlined above is simply being irresponsible and horribly Euro-centric. I can agree as to the greater influence, but it WAS NOT INVENTED by Gutenburg for God's sake. He improved on the idea and used it for the masses.

I think the description I wrote is fair AND true to history. God forbid the game actually helps teach people that not everything was invented in the west!

Alex 14 · November 3, 2001, 20:59

Like I said they should rename it to just 'printing press' because the game is suppose to be re-writing history, I wouldn't argue more information being put into the Civilopedia though.

TCO · November 3, 2001, 21:08

yeah...they probably say they invented icecream too.

Anyhow, they're part of the Japanese civ, no?

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 21:08

O.K.: I'd rather have no historical data about these things than WRONG or horribly slanted data. This is true.

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 21:09

GP: Good try.

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 21:21

http://www.emc.com/international/activities/jikji.jsp

That's just one link. You can see my Korea thread in the Civs section for more, if you want to remove some western bias on the topic.

Now don't get me wrong: Gutenburg (and others in Holland and Prague) used the invention in a new way for the masses, and that cannot be ignored. But to say he 'invented' the technology is simply wrong.

yin26 · November 3, 2001, 21:35

Oldest known woodblock printing:

http://www.nfm.go.kr/enghtml2/en_jone_12.htm

Pembleton · November 3, 2001, 22:39

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Imran Siddiqui
ACS News Editor
New Brunswick, NJ

Dec 1969

03-11-2001 19:39

Yin, Gutenburg's press was different from the Korean one though. It was easier to mass print many different books using Gutenburg's, and it had a greater influence, including being necessary for the Protestant Reformation to occur.
__________________
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GP
Emperor
Atlanta, GA

Dec 1969

03-11-2001 19:49

Yin...your outrage is funny!

yin26
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GP
Emperor
Atlanta, GA

Dec 1969

03-11-2001 20:08

yeah...they probably say they invented icecream too.

Anyhow, they're part of the Japanese civ, no?

yin26
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Shadowstrike · November 3, 2001, 23:41

This is like putting "Miitaristic" under Chinese. Its downright unhistorical to see the Chinese expanding like jackrabbits, and even less historical to have Genghis Khan as a Chinese leader!

November 3, 2001, 23:50

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
As I noted: Korea has the oldest wood block printed book, the greatest collection of wood blocks, the oldest metal type printing press and book ... it's a fact Marco Polo brought over word of this technology.

To NOT mention it in the way I have outlined above is simply being irresponsible and horribly Euro-centric. I can agree as to the greater influence, but it WAS NOT INVENTED by Gutenburg for God's sake. He improved on the idea and used it for the masses.

I think the description I wrote is fair AND true to history. God forbid the game actually helps teach people that not everything was invented in the west!

Isn't possible they both invented? Maybe Guten didn't heard of the press of Korea via Marco Polo.... It is possible, whoever had it first not a serious big deal.... they BOTH Invented, no?

Unless you can prove that Guten actually heard of the stories about the korean press... even then, not like it explained how they built it.

-LMP

Pembleton · November 4, 2001, 00:03

Quote:

Originally posted by [LordLMP]

Isn't possible they both invented? Maybe Guten didn't heard of the press of Korea via Marco Polo.... It is possible, whoever had it first not a serious big deal.... they BOTH Invented, no?

Unless you can prove that Guten actually heard of the stories about the korean press... even then, not like it explained how they built it.

-LMP

Sure, to give one example. Leibniz and Newton invented calculus almost at the same independently in Germany and England. But Newton was more influential because of how he introduced it and applied it.

November 4, 2001, 00:05

Further my point....

take two civilizations not connected to each by land and across the world from each other. They both end up developing a technology... but one civilization acquired the tech first.... 50 to 100 years later, the other civilization disocovered the tech, without a single influence from the other civilization as they both don't know that the other exist and not contact......

So the first one who discovered the soonest should get all the credit to inventing the tech? where they other invented without a single help from any sources? I say they both invented and they both should have the credit.

So i say guten and the koreans both should be credited to Inventing it, not one and the other improving it. Unless you can seriously prove that Guten acquired any knowledge from either the writings of Marco Polo or stories or whatever, acquired the idea via those sources that lead him to create the his version of the printing press.

Another confusing matters...... Who seriously invented flight, the telephone, etc? they invented in USA, but does it mean USA should have the credit? those inventors were Canadians....so shouldn't Canada get the credit?

A lot of the American achievements had Canadian influences or achieved by Canadian born inventors.

-LMP

TCO · November 4, 2001, 00:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Pembleton
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yin26
03-11-2001 20:35 This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

LOL!!

Seriously don't click on threads he starts if you're going to ignore him.

Kc7mxo · November 4, 2001, 00:16

I think whats most important is the effect that the printing presses had.

Asian languages do not translate well to a printing press. Which is why caligraphy continued to be in use, while the printing press was virtuallly ignored.

Where as the western world's language systems use around 26 letters, and a small number of grammatical symobols.

For the east, the printing press is in-consquetial.

For the west, it was critical to the reforamtion, one of the most important western historical events in the last five hundred years.

Pembleton · November 4, 2001, 00:22

Quote:

Originally posted by GP

LOL!!

Seriously don't click on threads he starts if you're going to ignore him.

I do it because the post I made is indicative of *all* his threads. I keep opening them up to see if keeps doing it, and yep, it never fails.

yin26 · November 4, 2001, 00:26

In the same way pasta was shared by Marco Polo, so was the printing press technology. To my knowledge, nobody disputes this fact.

Am I saying that Gutenberg should NOT be the focus of the data on the printing press? No. He is a single man we can pinpoint who greatly shared the power of the press.

However, to say he INVENTED it ... and to leave it at that ... is wrong. As I said, there is a MASSIVE printing press culture in Korea long before Gutenburg. We KNOW Marco Polo shared this info after his trip to Asia. That backgroud should be included in the data banks. At the very least, the data banks should be rewritten at least in vauge terms that can still focus on Europe if it must:

"Taking technology borrowed from Asia to entirely new heights, Gutenberg ..."

That's all I'm asking. You needn't even mention any particular country in Asia if you don't want.

Zylka · November 4, 2001, 13:32

So basically... you just want a change in the game as a direct result of what you've brought up. Might be good for the bragging rights, no?

November 4, 2001, 14:43

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
In the same way pasta was shared by Marco Polo, so was the printing press technology. To my knowledge, nobody disputes this fact.

Am I saying that Gutenberg should NOT be the focus of the data on the printing press? No. He is a single man we can pinpoint who greatly shared the power of the press.

However, to say he INVENTED it ... and to leave it at that ... is wrong. As I said, there is a MASSIVE printing press culture in Korea long before Gutenburg. We KNOW Marco Polo shared this info after his trip to Asia. That backgroud should be included in the data banks. At the very least, the data banks should be rewritten at least in vauge terms that can still focus on Europe if it must:

"Taking technology borrowed from Asia to entirely new heights, Gutenberg ..."

That's all I'm asking. You needn't even mention any particular country in Asia if you don't want.

Have you ever read of Marco Polo's stories? If so, provide a direct quote that he mentions the korean printing press.

Borrowed technology? Was Gutenberg ever been to Asia to check out the printing press there and BORROW its design and ideas to invente his Printing Press? I doubt it. So can't use the word Borrow, but I say they Both Invented it.

Oh wait, this civilization in Alpha Centauri happened to have Invented THIS 1000 years before we did, so they should get all of the credit for inventing it, and not the inventor from this world.

Sorry, i am up for fair play

-LMP

PS: You are so cute with your pessimistic ways along with that cute dog picture

Dida · November 4, 2001, 15:46

Yin26, go back to your old day elementary school and learn some history before bull$hitting here. The romovable printing was first invented by the chinese Scientist Sheng Kuo during the Northern Song Dynasty. This is one of the 4 major scientific contributions China made, alone with Gunpower, Paper, and Compass. Korea was a little no man's land during the 8th century, they might have learned how to raise fire and write some simple words from China, but Korea certainly did not have the capability to make such a remarkable scentific contribution. I'm sick of Korean government's propaganda, trying to steal other Civilization's achievements, and present them as its own. This cannot make Korea a better Civ, it only further proof the fact that Korea has a pretty empty past, with no cultural identification of its own. Note that, the current Korean written language was made up in the last century, before that, Koreans write in Chinese.