It IS possible for two cities to be next to each other

[master on high]

(Note, I posted something about this in Civ2 – general some time ago where it was largely ignored)

Yes. Despite what the game engine wants us to think, it IS entirely possible for two cities to coexist in touching hexes. Why? A simple blunder in the Advanced Start option that may be exloited for scenario use.

A while back, I was playing around with the small earth map and the advanced start 2000 BCE option. It was interesting when civs kept getting cities in the same spots over and over again. So then I wondered what would happen if I selected several civs that all started very close to each other. I don't recall the exact civs, but what happened startled me. Two cities were built right next to each other (See the screen).

I didn't notice what had happened until I stopped to check my progress with the other civs, and even then I wasn’t sure what had caused it. I restarted the game immediately, and tried it again, cheating right away to reveal the map and sure enough there were THREE cities right next to each other.

If a map can be edited in a specific way to allow civs to only grow in a single direction then I believe it may be possible to “force” two cities to be built directly next to each other (If their starting positions are close enough together). By surrounding an area with deserts it would be rather easy to place say, Stalingrad East and West of the Volga, Buda and Pest, East and West Berlin, etc. The possibilities are almost endless. The only problem I can foresee is ownership of the city. Say, you want both cities to be possessed by one civ. By buying it or taking it over partisans could not appear, possibly destroying a significant portion of the atmosphere of the scenario. The only solution I can think of is to hex edit the city in question and give it to the civ you want to have it.

This screen contains no graphic trickery. I do have the save file should anyone wish me to post it.

[master on high]

For starters I set up a simple map. Then placed 4 civs in each city radii sized portion of grassland. I was indeed able to get two cities next to each other.

What was interesting was that each secondary city is exactly 4 squares away from the capitol city. Something which may enhance the odds of getting it to work on an actual map.

[master on high]

I edited the map of Europe so that Rome starts way off near the black sea and france begins in the alps. I then surrounded every square 4 squares away from the starting positions with desert except for the two places that I wanted the cities of Buda and Pest to go. After a mistake in the first attempt, the second attempt proved successful, and after only minor adjustements to the names, Buda and Pest are two seperate cities. However, I made them horozontally connect. I do not know if the AI will build cities diagonally. So...there must be a test #3.

[master on high]

Alright. Same thing as before, but I placed Paris 4 squares south of where I wanted the city Buda to go, and Rome 4 squares to the southeast of where I wanted Pest to go. Desert was placed in a radii around both cities and VOILA. Diagonally connecting cities.

[Jimmywax]

This would be perfect for a scenario that was to have East and West Berlin.

[Henrik]

Actually, I remember this happening once to me in a regular singlplayer game (I built two cities next to eachoter)...
I dont know how it happened though

[master on high]

I didn't expect to have this figured out tonight...but it only took like twenty minutes.

And there really aren't and conclusions....Except for a new thing I found. Cities can exist ON TOP OF each other. Look at this screen.

[master on high]

And for good measure...here's the city screen for that square. Both when you look under the Roman AND Babylonian maps.

It's obvious the second city is what's showing up, but the units have disapeared except in the support box. wierd. when you change production you can basically have the Babylonians build Roman units. BTW....there are no Roman units from Veii anywhere.

I was able to simply take a unit and walk into Veii.

WHen you look at Babylon from the City Status screen, it appears normally. Veii is not so lucky. Her units are completely gone. *tests some more*

Also. You cannot move into that square since it is occupied by another civ's units. I have no clue what this could possilby be used for now...perhaps airlifting would be good...I wonder what trade routes would be like...although it's safe to say only the first city built (in this case Veii) would get any trade. It's the graphic that shows up and it's the city screen that shows up.

[Case]

I'm think that I can see a lot of ways this can be used! (trench warfare for one) Thanks MoH

[Heresson]

Cities next to each other;
I think someone already told about such possibility with hex-editing.
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it's a nice discovery.
Cities on top of each other;
Allard or Jorrit or whoever discovered the way to do it by hex-editing.
Me, I discovered the way to do it by means of events;
nevertheless, it is somewhat different; in my hidden cities,
only one name of the city was seen, and stuff; I mean, though
generally all is the same, it looked different.

[master on high]

I did recall Andrew saying that it would be possible to attempt to hex edit cities like that...but that he wasn't able to move them next to each other. I have no idea what Allard might have said on the topic...so I'll take your word for it.

But this Babylon - Veii city isn't hidden. the computer actually built two cities on top of one another.

[Stefan Härtel]

Let me contribute my experiences to the round.
A while ago I have posted about the possibility of terraforming land terrain to ocean. This appeared to be nothing new, as it was used in Jesús Munoz HRE scen, and Microproses Mars! scenario.
I don't know how many people already know this, but it is possible to terraform terrain when a city is placed on it. This way, you can 'build' cities on water.
I have done this in my recent Alexander scenario (look at the city named 'Okeanos' in the north of the Caspian Sea!).
Now, let's pretend we're building some sick kind of naval battle scenario, we could have two naval bases built on each other by building the cities on top of each other (a battleship and a sub f.e.).

[TCO]

Megalopolis!!!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
Let me contribute my experiences to the round.
A while ago I have posted about the possibility of terraforming land terrain to ocean. This appeared to be nothing new, as it was used in Jesús Munoz HRE scen, and Microproses Mars! scenario.
I don't know how many people already know this, but it is possible to terraform terrain when a city is placed on it. This way, you can 'build' cities on water.
I have done this in my recent Alexander scenario (look at the city named 'Okeanos' in the north of the Caspian Sea!).
Now, let's pretend we're building some sick kind of naval battle scenario, we could have two naval bases built on each other by building the cities on top of each other (a battleship and a sub f.e.).

1. Can you use this feature to strand a unit? Can you use this feature to build railroads on the ocean? By first building the RR, then truning to ocean. What about roads? And if so are the roads/RR traversable? What about a bunch of air bases on the ocean, would they be traversable?

[master on high]

I don't know how many people already know this, but it is possible to terraform terrain when a city is placed on it. This way, you can 'build' cities on water.
I have done this in my recent Alexander scenario (look at the city named 'Okeanos' in the north of the Caspian Sea!).
Now, let's pretend we're building some sick kind of naval battle scenario, we could have two naval bases built on each other by building the cities on top of each other (a battleship and a sub f.e.).

Only after you edit the rules to allow terrains to be terraformed into ocean. But that's minor...and I'm sure assumed to be the case.

I don't really know what the benefits of having two cities on top of each other. Perhaps in the two different dimensions in Civ...that would be interesting...but there doesn't appear to be any great difference between the cities. I wouldn't even know how to edit them! For anybody who'd like to test some more (I don't know where to begin) here's the .sav file.

1. Can you use this feature to strand a unit? Can you use this feature to build railroads on the ocean? By first building the RR, then truning to ocean. What about roads? And if so are the roads/RR traversable? What about a bunch of air bases on the ocean, would they be traversable?

I don't know about stranding units (could be interesting to make sea mines like that! Ground units stranded in the ocean that can attack when other units come by) but it is possible to build railroads on the ocean and they are in fact very usable. Airbases too should work...but I haven't seen it tested. The only thing that one would need to do is find the appropraite terrain to switch to ocean (probably grasslands) and edit it in the rules.

[Mercator]

Just wondering... What happens to Veii if Babylon is captured/destroyed by a third civilization, or by the Roman civilization?

[master on high]

Alright. This is creepy. I just ran some more tests. and found this out:

First Test - I took several Roman armours and pounded Babylon. There were no city walls in either Veii or Babylon, and the city shown (Veii) was decimated, leaving Babylon. However, the entire image disapeared leaving only the name of Babylon. I moved the armour into the square where the city was and nothing happened. I quickly switched civs and checked the city status. Babylon was STILL THERE. It can build units and everything but is invisible and CAN'T BE TAKEN OVER. I left an armour in the spot and cheated a Phalanx. The armour somehow disapeared. Very very disturbing...the game engine can't be enjoying this.

But what happened to Veii? It's gone. Nada. Nothing left. The Babylonians were occupying it and it just plain didn't hold out. Now...for the next test...

Second Test - This deals with espionage. I wanna know what happens! First comes a Babylonian spy...hypothesis? I think that it will enter Veii. No doubt. And...it does. Now...a Roman spy. The Roman spy CANNOT enter either Veii or Babylon. Now...out go all the units...WAIT....(as you can tell I'm typing as I go...) I cntrl-Ded the square and all the roman units popped up! The Roman spy can enter Veii...but it still cannot enter Babylon. So far Babylon is impossible to take over and cannot be entered by ANY spy/diplo. So what about a unit from neither the Romans or Babylonians? An Egyptian spy was made and it too entered Veii, the city that was created first by the engine. Alright...so...now what about trade?

Third Test - Created a Babylonian Frieght and it arrived in Veii for a revenue of 2 gold. Created a Roman frieght and...it too goes to Veii. It is even impossible to TRADE WITH Babylon. hmmm....but Babylon still retains all the characteristics of a city. Is this it? No. I want to find out what happens to air and sea units when Veii is gone and Babylon remains. Thus...test four.

Fourth Test - Alright now...Veii quickly destroyed...attempting to see if sea units can occupy the square...and...NO. Sea units cannot enter the city. Air units? I'll have to check their endurace. Will a fighter last more than a turn? No. It crashes. The city exist but air and sea units cannot take refuge in it.

Will city walls take effect? And while I'm at it...coastal fortresses too. I'm sure that whatever happens there could be assumed for SAM sites.

It doesn't appear city walls take effect. I attacked a mech inf with an armour and the mech was taken out easily. not something that would happen with city walls. But what about ships? Nothing. The coastal fortress did NOT take effect. So...only whatever defensive improvements the first city had will take effect when attacked by units. *sigh* wow.

I think I'm done for now.

Just wondering... What happens to Veii if Babylon is captured/destroyed by a third civilization, or by the Roman civilization?

Babylon cannot be captured.

BTW...I did these tests on the same sav file.

[Dracon II]

wow! another weird glitch in the system.... this is like that 'parallel universe' discovery made a while back. I hope scenario makers will be able to exploit this...

[master on high]

Removing the name would give you a completely invisible city, unable to be taken over and it would retain all the characteristics of a city except for defensive improvements and the harbouring of troops. I'm rather surprised it took Civ3 to bring out these bugs.

this is like that 'parallel universe' discovery made a while back. I hope scenario makers will be able to exploit this...

That's one of the first things I thought of too.

[Lucius]

. Can you use this feature to strand a unit? Can you use this feature to build railroads on the ocean? By first building the RR, then truning to ocean. What about roads? And if so are the roads/RR traversable? What about a bunch of air bases on the ocean, would they be traversable?


Okay, first of all unless I am much mistaken land units cannot use roads and railroads over ocean. I think the roads do add to trade for that square if it's in a city radius however.

Stranding a unit - I have heard that ground units that do this go to sleep.

Air bases on the ocean - I don't know if you can build an airbase and then change to ocean and keep the airbase, but I do know that if you use the cheat menu edit terrain feature you can put an airbase on ocean and it is fully functional.

If you use the cheat menu to creat 2 settlers of different civs in the same square, (which I already know is possible) can they both found cities? If you put a settler in a foreign city (again possible with the cheat menu create unit feature) can it found a city there?? (I seem to recal, though, that when I tried that it said "join city" and was absorbed into local population rather than founding a new city....so perhaps only by tricking the AI is it possible to get two cities in one place)


I DO know it is possible to have units supported by cities of civilizations they do not belong to, i.e. if I create a Roman Legion in Babylon and click on "support from this city" the Babylonians are supporting that Legion wether they like it or not. Personally I wouldn't like it if I were them and am not sure how to exploit it in a scenario, but I'm sure someone will think of something. Perhaps for a scenario involving an alliance between a civ with large armies and another civ with many people and cities and industrial production...

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Enterprises

[N35t0r]

Actually, i remember a game (will have to check for the save) using the ascendancy scen (an improved version of the discovery scen from CiC), in which the english had built a city adjacent to york(?) (their northernmost starting city).... i'll check when i get home if i can find it...

[The_Newbie]

You can also get this "invisible city" effect using events, by changing the terrain underneath the empty city to ocean with a changeterrain event. It can be very useful when this happens to you, as you can still open the city from the F1 menu and build land units in the ocean from a city that cannot be captured.