Strategy Notes From Vel - The Early Game....

[Steve Clark]

Vel, you get my vote as Apolytoner of the Year (if such a thing still existed). Keep up the great work, I am reading with interest.

[Kinjiru]

Two quick points:

1) Yes, the Russians performed a Culture Bomb on me, however it was inadverdant I think. Since the Russians were boxed in, and could not expand overseas (they tried, and lost every ship to the ocean squares), they were left with no choice but to build internally. They had LOTS of workers running around, but after they mined, roaded, and irrigated everything, Cathy just started joining them to cities. They russians had a decent military, but there was no real need to build a huge army, and the AI tends to avoid using 'wealth', so she started building cultural improvements.

I have verified this by using all my cash to spy on two other Russian cities that started to grow very quickly. Thankfully, my nearby towns were already highly cultured so there was no danger of losing them. The build order the Russians used was (temple was already there) Library, Colesium, University (once I traded them Education) and differed after that.

2) With regards to what to do after the initial expansion phase is over, AKA 'downshifting'. If you have a couple cities with at least two food specials, then get them up to size 12 asap. This can be easily accomplished by added excess workers to the cities. If you have no excess workers, build some in nearby towns; it is very easy to recover from the 1 pop loss. Getting a few cities up to size 12 early gives you a huge productivity advantage of your rivals. The only caveat here is that if you try this in high corruption cities you will be forfeiting much of the benefit...

3) My only real complaint so far... the volume level of naval units. Why are they so much louder than everything else!?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I can't agree more with you Vel. You essentially agreed with all of my points, and although there are some expected differences (your building queue is more rigid while mine allows for more maneuvering room to build according to your situation.) i think that we are in general agreement over one of the many strats that can be used to expand at the beginning.

[ChrisShaffer]

One caveat - you can sometimes get a pretty good city out of the desert if there aren't too many desert squares. The central square in every city produces 2/1/1, modified only by rivers and resources. So if it's a small desert, or the luxuries are on the edges, you can build directly on a desert square -- instant terraforming effectively eliminating one square of desert.

[Growler]

It appears to me that the AI doesn't know where unsettled land exists until it uncovers it via exploration or map trading.

If you expand and have a "donut" empire with a hole in the middle or in general any variety of vulnerable rear area which is not settled and controlled by you, the AI will want to go there as soon as it finds out about it. So I prevent it from finding out.

I have a strong anti-scout patrol and don't hesitate to kill every foreigner I find in "my" part of the continent. The other part of the solution is to never sell my maps. I am the mystery civ. running a closed society and never give right-of-passage agreements. I control AI probing and scouting by blocking with large numbers of warriors or workers if I want to avoid a war. I prefer militaristic civs and don't mind going to war anyway.

When I get galleys, I block naval choke points with lines of galleys to slow down naval exploration. Running a line a galleys perpendicular to your shore out to the edge of deeper water can make a choke point where none naturally exists.

Once an AI learns too much, you may as well assume all of the AIs will know due to map trading amongst them. Hence, no security breaches can be tolerated. I try to get the Lighthouse wonder to keep the AIs in the dark until Navigation tech is discovered.

The ultimate solution is to settle your continent completely, but this technique buys you some time in the early game by "turning off" AI aggressiveness in your direction by removing its knowledge of any incentives to expand in your direction. After things are well under control, maps can be traded when such trading doesn't reveal critical weaknesses.

[Velociryx]

Stuff I’ve done in various test games that worked well for me, and warrants further study:

Culture Kudzu:
One of the things that the computer “checks” with regards to if/when a rival civ’s city will defect to your side is proximity to your/his capitol.

By the middle ages, when your workers have pumped up the mineral counts, it’s easy enough to temporarily relocate your palace to a fringe area and watch rival cities start to drop like flies. I captured six enemy cities in rapid succession in this way (three on each “end” of my empire. Relocated my capitol back to a centralized location in relation to my FP, and got back to business as usual….

Resource Protection:
Especially re: Iron and other consumables that have a nasty habit of disappearing on me at crucial moments and/or tie up defensive resource to protect them in the event of a war. Build a city on top of the resource, rather than adjacent to it. In the three games I’ve tried this with (iron on a hilly tile), the resource has lasted til the end of the game), when my other two iron sources dried up during the course of the game.

Palace Leapfrogging:
Corruption getting the better of you? Start building your Palace in a city that’s “in the direction of” where you want it in the end…pick a spot where corruption isn’t too bad. Build it. Then, pick another base again “in the direction of” where you want the palace to wind up. You’ll note that the corruption in the second target base is now quite tolerable, given the proximity of the new palace. Build it again. Repeating till you have the Palace where you want it. Trust me, even two rebuilds like this is MUCH faster than letting a 1-shield town build it for you, and in the meantime, you may be able to locate your palace in such a way that you scarf up a few nearby enemy towns (see above).

When attacking:
Ancient era: 6 Archers and a Pike for defense will decimate an enemy before iron working, or if they have no source of iron. This is the kind of speed attack that the Babylonians (and Iroquois) excel at, since their Bowmen don’t require the Pike for defense. Once YOU get Iron Working, build a barracks and upgrade your warriors and you’re ready to rock (rebuilding token garrisons while your attack force is en route).

Dealing with captured cities:
If you’re attacking with archers, then you’re almost assuredly under Despotism, and that being the case, rush in a Spearman to defend the new town, sacrificing a rebellious peasant to speed things along. Resistance end sooner (….”resistance is futile….”), you get a defender in the place the next turn, and are ready to proceed to your next objective.

Similarly, if you capture workers, consider the option of simply adding them back to the population of the city, then using the extra pop point to rush an archer/swordsman/something to bolster your attack force.

Under Despotism, especially, warfare is extremely easy, because you can really wreck someone’s empire, LITERALLY by using his own people against him. For this reason alone, you should make it a point to solidify your position on the continent you start on before you head out of Despotism. Do it while you can make the most ruthless use of the other guy’s population!!!

Corruption:
Having grown some pretty massive freakin’ Civs in my test games on normal maps, I’m still not sure what all the fuss is about. Sure, after pushing two rival civs into the sea and absorbing all their cities, my corruption was through the roof. That strikes me as both acceptable and accurate.

It took a LONG time, but I was finally able to relocate my palace to a more centralized spot, and under diplomacy, that helped a great deal. If I had one suggestion about reducing it, it would be to replace the tax collector specialist with some “corruption busting” one. In that way, it’d force the player to micromanage his corruption, and set limits on growth. You can have a smaller, well managed city, or a big, sprawling one with lots of corruption….something like that. OTOH, I’ve never found it necessary to do that. I consider my cities on the fringe to be window dressing and not a lot more, and run the business of my empire from my core cities. If/When the fringe cities finish something, that’s cool, but it’s not something I devote a lot of consideration to (usually I have them building troops or ships that I’m in no particular hurry to finish anyway). My “Empire” is my core 10-12 cities. The rest is just to bring resources in under my umbrella….(Having said that, I DO think that barracks and police stations should lower corruption. Barracks because it represents in some way the King/Despot/Senator/President’s loyal armed forces, and gives you a reason to build and pay maintenance for barracks everywhere, and police station cos going after corruption is part of what those guys do!). Might go into the guts of the game and tweak that just to see, but I’d regard it as a tweak unnecessary to the enjoyment of the game).

Along the same lines, little “gangs” of corrupt towns acting together can actually be sorta productive! Let’s say, for example (using a recently played game), that I’m the Persians and my Immortals have just trounced poor Babylon. I was able to trap him on a peninsula and limit him to only six cities, but their location is well away from my capitol, so they’re limited to one shield.

Two workers (also captured from Babylon), are assigned to remain on the peninsula and chop wood for a living, harvesting shields to help the crappy production of those towns. And, when I unlock the secrets of Engineering, they’ll no doubt reforest and repeat on an as-needed basis.

In the meantime, I set two towns to making some improvement or expensive unit (making sure that they’re the “closest town” to my lumberjack crews), and let the others make warriors, to hop over to one of the towns that are actually making something important and disbanding. Trading a 10-shield warrior for 5 shields of “real” production is actually TONS better than the rate of corruption in some of these towns, and in the absence of any good options for speeding construction of needed goods (no caravan/crawler cashing, for which I am glad!), it represents one way to make the production time respectable.

Specialized use cities:
Still as workable in Civ3 as they were in SMAC and Civ2. One city devoted to churning out troops, one city devoted to science, etc. Still a basically viable model, though with the inclusion of culture, if you’re looking to expand yours, then the culture enhancing improvements should be built everywhere, affordable or no.

Border Violations:
Ignore them. Who cares if the AI is sending a settler through your territory to settle? Let him, surround it, and envelop it with culture. He loses a settler helping you consolidate your empire. Cool.

-=Vel=-
(more later, just wanted to post more random thoughts!)

[Arrian]

Velociryx -

Wow, your take on the Babylonians is far different than mine, and I've been playing them a lot lately. I chose them for the Religious/Scientific combo, which I think is one of the best in the game. I DID NOT chose them for their special unit (I'd rather have a mobile unit), and I generally do anything to stay out of war early on. My golden ages are either Wonder-driven, or a result of someone else attacking me (Damn Zulus rushed me to grab a city w/6 gem resources... which I got back due to culture).

In my experience w/the Babylonians, they are a Mid-Game terror. Hit me early, and I've got SERIOUS problems. Let me get going, and YOU (read: AI) have serious problems. Cheap temples, libraries, cathedrals & universities are excellent, both for their effects on the city in which they are built, and for your overall culture. The Babs are awesome for a "Culture Bombing" strategy. As my cities are usually rockin' and rollin' by the Middle Ages, I get Copernicus and Newton, and by then - fougettaboutit.

One thing about border violations and the absorbtion of enemy cities via culture. Generally, this is a good thing, as you describe. In my latest game, however, it actually hurt me. The English (whom I later repaid by nuking London and then razing it) snuck a city (Canterbury, I believe) past me. It was westnorthwest of my capital, west of another major city, and otherwise mostly surrounded by ocean. Given this, I figured "cool, that will be mine soon anyway" and let it be. Heh. You see, the way the starting locations worked out, not only was Canterbury close to MY capital, but London wasn't too far either (I think Cant was roughly 3 or 4 squares from my northern city, 10 squares from Babylon and 20 from London). Both Babylon and the other city (name escapes me) quickly built all "cultural" buildings my tech allowed, and I was usually ahead in tech, so they quickly had libraries/cathedrals/etc. Babylon, of course, got its fair share of Wonders.

Canterbury's culture borders extended fairly far into the ocean (north/west), but never got more than 1 square to the east b/c that's where my borders were. Ok, ok, the point, you ask? Well, 'round about 1600 I discover this newfangled technology the bald guy w/glasses referred to as "replaceable parts." I find that I have no rubber. In that square due east of Cant. that is the limit of England's border there is, in fact, a rubber resouce.

I did not want to fight England just then, for reasons ranging from "if I pull my army out of the south to deal w/Liz, Shaka will probably be all over me" to "the English have never really messed with me..." Anyway, I eventually DID get Canterbury via cultural assimilation - in 1798! Still, I no longer had to pay Liz gold by the truckload for 20 turns of rubber.

I find your posts great reading - the idea of moving one's capital as an aid to culture bombing had not occurred to me... definitely food for thought. Keep 'em coming!

-Arrian

p.s. A word on resources. In most of my games, I've had trouble w/coal. This last game, I had 6!!! coal, but no rubber. Early on, I did (cultural) battle w/the English for the one horse resouce anywhere near us.

[Enigma]

Nice to see you here Vel!

I am a big fan of the Persians because I love the Immortals and the Industrial ability. I think that 200% worker work rate is the biggest bonus of any civ in the game. And the Persians do get 1/2 of the culture whore bonus that the Babylonians get- they are scientific.

In my current game I had the Babylonians to my NE and the Russians to my West, I conquered the Russkies and managed to get quite a few great leaders out of the fight (3!), and I rushed in the Hanging gardens, a Forbidden palace at Moscow, and an Army.

My immortals win about 85-90% of the time vs regular spearmen, I would rather have them than Bowmen. 4 offense isn't obsolete until you research calvalry! Very long lasting UU, gives you more flexibility in when you want to start your golden age fueled offensive, Immortals r0x0r longbowmen (40 mins for longbowman vs 30 for Immortals, 1 defense for longbowmen vs 2 for Immortals).

I focus everything on getting Iron working to find out where I need my cities in the early game, then on getting the Great Library, then on getting more land.

I agree with you about the Great Library but we seem to be in the minority, the Pyramids are the number one choice here. Here is how I like comparing the Great Library to the Pyramids-

Pyramids adds 1200 mins to an empire of 20 cities
Great Library-
If you are overall behind on the tech race, will allow you to catch up very quickly.
Allows you to allocate 10%science and 90% econ
It will last for probably 30-50 turns before Education is discovered by some other civ and inadvertantly discovered by you when that civ trades it to another civ.

Lets say that your empire of 20 cities produces on average 8 commerce....

If you built the Pyramids you would have to allocate 5 of that 8 to science to keep up in the tech race

If you build the GL then you can have all 8 for science.

8*20 is 160 gold per turn, subtract some for upkeep and you have a sizable sum. Multiply by 50... that is 8000 gold!

The equivalent of 2000 minerals, distributed any way you choose, among any number of target creatures and/or players (err anything you want to build).

The implications are staggering!

Overall "rush buying" has been castrated in this game, but the GL is just what you need to go into a cash fueled early/mid game economic growth cycle. Again my numeric analysis is very rudimentary, part of the reason I like the GL is because I have never gotten a chance to build the Pyraminds on Monarch...

Yet another advantage of the GL over the Pyramids is that the GL appears to be the highest culture producing improvement in the game, it produces a different amount than is actually stated in the civlopedia, I believe it is about 15
Persepolis makes 34 culture per turn, -2 temple, -3 library, -3 cathedral, - 1? coliseum, -4 hanging gardens, -2 Palace means about 19 per turn for the GL, this lasts even after it is obsolete. It produces far many more "music" notes than I can count on the city screen.

[Xin Yu]

I have a thought. If you play militaric (recommend Japan) or if you have a strong unit (recommend Greek), you can try 'GL culture bomb'. Declare war on a civ early so your troops get a better chance to be promoted to GL. Then put down a city close to an AI city, use this GL to change your palace there -- an instant culture bomb.

[Velociryx]

'Nigma! Howdy bud! And yes....those Persians just utterly ROCK! I gotta admit that they've got one of the BEST ancient era specials! MUCH longer shelf life than my Babylonians, and they're a lot of fun to play (for some reason, I get into Persia *much* more than I do the Romans.....not sure why that is, exactly....).

Anyway, a big thumbs up to the Persians!

Great Library thoughts:
Excellent synopsis of the breakdown! I've also found that if I *don't* get it, I beeline for Education and give it away to "break" it for whomever has it. Interesting too, to see the numbers on the research valuations....that, plus the mammoth cultural kick makes it more than worthwhile, in my mind. (not to mention the money you save re: buying the techs from other civs, and the money you make in tech sales to your low-tech neighbors. All in all, it makes the GL a cash cow! And Xin!! Way to go on the GL-Culture Bomb! That's an excellent idea! All that culture right on the border spells converts!!!



-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Faction Profile: The French

Commercial/Industrious
Special Unit: Musketeer (replaces Musketman)

The Goods
What can I say except that I almost felt like I was cheating!? France just ROCKS! There’s no other way to describe it. Commercialism gives you a boost to money (less corruption), and Industrious give you more shields. So what if you have to pay “regular” price for everything? With more money and more shields, where’s the problem?! But that’s not the best part….no, the very best part is those insane French workers….even if you start up to your neck in Jungle, the reliable French workers can turn it into a garden paradise of productive farmland in no time flat!

Expansion
Thanks to your double speed workers, your settlement routine will be on par with the decent “Ancient” civs, as your road network out to future city sites will help speed settlers to their destinations. However, overall, you may find yourself lagging in the early game, both developmentally and culturally….but that’s okay….your bonuses are much more telling after you’re “up and running good,” so play conservatively in the early goings. Rope off some good land, keep the AI out of it till you can backfill and then focus on the nuts and bolts of your empire. By the time you get out of the ancient era, you’ll find yourself starting to come into your own, and your in-game strengths will only improve from there.

Tech Tree
Start researching the techs for Temples just to keep unhappiness in check, and as soon as you can build them (either via your own research or through trading for the tech), head straight for Republic. While under despotism, it may be possible to fight an early war with your neighbors, but I’d advise against it if at all possible. Wait till your advantages really begin to kick in, and then simply blow them away! Think about it in this way….compare France with the Persians. The Persians are MADE for the ancient era. That’s when they are the strongest and most dangerous, what with their cursed Immortals and such….so if you tangle with them in the Ancient Era, you’re going to be fighting them at a disadvantage. Much better to make them play your game, which means waiting….

Timing
Patience. That’s the key. Keep your nose to the grindstone in the early game and don’t be distracted from your steady climb to greatness….’bout the time you hit the Industrial Age, you’ll be primed for world domination….

-=Vel=-

Notes from my actual game
Please note that this one is not finished yet….I’m in 1100-somethingorother A.D., and it’s been a KILLER game so far!

Started on a continent with both the Americans and the Russians, and I’m happy to say that I out-expanded two Expansionist Civs!!!

With the Americans, it amounted to pure luck….I discovered a one tile land bridge connecting their “part” of the continent with mine in the western portion of my continent, and simply parked a warrior on the tile, denying them access to “my” area. As the early game expansion continued, their own native border growth would open that back up, as they forced me to leave their borders….but it was easy enough to establish another block with a second warrior added to the “American Front” and at that point, I sealed the deal with a nearby base, matching the American border with one of my own.

In the east, I discovered that the Russians had founded Moscow on a wide expanse of grassland with a river running through it. Not very pretty terrain, but quite fertile in the long run. My front with them is much wider (took three cities to more-or-less seal them off).

At this point in the game, my actions to stifle AI expansion left me with a huge tract of land to backfill, so I knew that my early game was going to be entirely about settlement, and resigned myself to missing out on all the early game wonders (the size of the land to be settled, coupled with the Americans and Russians having little to do but build wonders….I figured I’d be hard pressed to keep up with them….and in that, I was not wrong).

To the south of me was a wide expanse of jungle which branched off into two “fingers.” The greater of these (with more natural resources visible) was directly south of Paris, and the lesser was slightly south and east, so I suspected that the Russians, having been denied a landward route to that area, would build galleys and sail settlers there, and again, I predicted them…but it DID slow them down, which was my goal!

So….the Ancient era was all about settlement, and then about getting enough workers cranked out to begin spiking my food and mineral counts, while sparing a largish contingent to begin hacking down the jungle.

My aggressive colonization efforts did indeed cost me a shot at all of the early game wonders, and it made the Americans and Russians leery about trading techs with me, so as I clawed my way out of the Ancient era, I had to research Polytheism and Monarchy myself (even tho both the Americans and Russians already had the techs).

At the high point of my colonization efforts, I met a slightly tech-starved but VERY culturally advanced Greece, who had a smallish continent all to themselves (well…the Americans had built one city on it). World maps were traded all around, and I felt pretty good about my position. I had 14 cities, the Americans had 14 (tightly packed), the Russians had 8, and the Greeks had 10. Not bad at all….I felt pretty good about it.

Even better when the American city on the Greek continent got absorbed by my steadily growing culture.

Then, two turns later, a Russian city got peacefully enveloped by the mighty French (one of the cities they’d sailed a settler across to build on “the finger.”

The Americans immediately contacted me and we made some extensive trades (resources are plentiful in France….I have great surpluses of both Ivory and Silks, not to mention numerous gold mines in fairly centralized locations…all of this will spell outstanding long term growth!

Soon after, our American counterparts were “Gracious” and have been ever since, although I DID take note of the fact that they built a fortress on the choke point! (excellent AI, Soren!!), and staffed it with a pair of Veteran Spearmen, so I sent a settler to the area to build forts on my two-tile choke point opposite them….but the border has been nice and quiet.

Shortly after the fortresses were completed we had another big round of border expansions, and a second Russian city on the fringes of their empire folded, and joined us!!!

For their part, Russia keeps sending scads of troops and workers across my borders to shuffle them down on her four remaining “finger cities” and I’ve said nothing about it….her expansion was so hobbled by mine, that they are pretty much a backwater nation at this point. I gift them a tech now and again to keep them Polite, but I suspect that when I get a sufficient number of Musketeers, Russians days as an independent power may well be numbered….besides, they DO have a couple of wonders I could acquire….

The Greeks have been unfailingly polite, but somewhat technologically lagging, and I’m finding myself quite pleased about our unintentional city acquisition on their continent. This may have to be expanded a bit later, but for the moment, I’m pleased with it as it is….

Eventually, a German Galley wandered up to the Russian coast and made contact. Shortly after, we traded an obsolete tech to the Rus for contact with Germany, and from there, wrangled contact with everyone else and World Maps….WOW!

The Germans, English, Indians, and Romans all share a massive continent, with the Germans being far and away the Big Dog of their continent. They began as “annoyed” with us, but some liberal spreading around of our Ivory and Silk surpluses quickly got them to Polite.

More tech trading ensued, and I stopped the game in 11something, when I was building my first Musketeer.

I’ve got one of my primo cities building the observatory to boost science, only a handful of turns from completion, and the Germans just started on it. My workers have cleared out upwards of ninety percent of the jungle terrain. We have a top notch road network and this time I actually have BOTH iron and horses (though I got out of the ancient era without building anything but warriors!). Just got Feudalism/Chivalry from the distant Germans (in exchange for Education), so I can build knights now, but I much prefer my upgradable Musketeers…..

So…all in all, I’d say we’re primed for complete dominance. I’ve got a friendly neighbor to the west, a weak neighbor to the east, good relations with the other “big power” in the game….yes. Excellent position indeed!

Score-wise, I was running fourth in the Ancient Era, thanks to my lack of early game wonders (the ranking was Germany, America, Greece, France), and have since moved up to third, and am breathing down the necks of the Americans, who are breathing down the necks of the Germans. I suspect that by snagging a few of the juicy Middle-Ages Wonders and modernizing my military, I’ll catapult myself past the Americans at least, and possible the Germans as well.

Needless to say, while I’m at work, I’ve been scheming….and I can’t wait to get home!

-=Vel=-

[Cassius]

Vel,

Care to make any comments on how Civ3 compares to SMAC? I can only assume you are enjoying Civ3 since you can't wait to finish your game, put I'm curious how you think it stacks up...

[Velociryx]

Hmmm....good question bud! And you're absolutely right....this stuff is crack on Disc...sheesh...I've been slogging through the work days on an average of 2-3 hours sleep since the game came out! But...no complaints from me...I'm loving it!

And, I should say that when SMAC hit my desktop, I was struck with a similar "fever," which I guess says a lot in and of itself, but if I was going to do a direct compare of the two games, I'd have to say:

1) The Economic Model used in Civ3 is better by far, as is the Diplomacy and Combat.

2) I DO wish that they had seen fit to include some social engineering in Civ3...I think it would have made certain tech advances more meaningful. In the Ancient Era, you'd not even really call them "government types" possibly....but say, when you learn bronze working, it gives you the ability to allow "trial by combat" in a formalized arena or somesuch....which reduces corruption by X%...and eventually, you get to formalized systems of government (Monarchy, Republic, et al), which each have +'s and -'s. I think the system would have been MUCH more dynamic than we have now.

3) Corruption is the SMAC equivalent to inefficiency, and while it tends to be more brutal in Civ, I actually like that more! Let's face it....b/c of supply crawlers and specialists, you could simply expand forever in SMAC....no dice in Civ3....that's cool to me....and believable.

4) Sweeping, Epic story - I have to give the nod to Civ here....what could be more epic than the whole of human history. True, SMAC is an excellent Sci-Fi yarn, but that's all it is....a story. Civ tho....with it's elements of real history built in (Sistine Chapel and all the other wonders of the world), real leaders and generals)....you just can't get any better than that in terms of a *human* story....wow.

So....yep...it's safe to say that I'm enthralled by the game, and despite numerous reported bugs and things people are unhappy with, it truly IS a superior game IMO, and this preoccupation with it feels very similar to the preoccupation I had with SMAC when it first came out. I'm no fortune teller, but I predict a LOT of sleepless nights in my future....

-=Vel=-

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So....yep...it's safe to say that I'm enthralled by the game, and despite numerous reported bugs and things people are unhappy with, it truly IS a superior game IMO, and this preoccupation with it feels very similar to the preoccupation I had with SMAC when it first came out. I'm no fortune teller, but I predict a LOT of sleepless nights in my future....

-=Vel=-

I wish this could be posted in a banner here because your opinion needs to be raised above the noise. Even though we come from different background (you, SMAC (which I really don't like at all) and me, Civ2), I'm glad we can find a common ground with Civ3.

[ChrisShaffer]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In the meantime, I set two towns to making some improvement or expensive unit (making sure that they’re the “closest town” to my lumberjack crews), and let the others make warriors, to hop over to one of the towns that are actually making something important and disbanding. Trading a 10-shield warrior for 5 shields of “real” production is actually TONS better than the rate of corruption in some of these towns, and in the absence of any good options for speeding construction of needed goods (no caravan/crawler cashing, for which I am glad!), it represents one way to make the production time respectable.

Vel, I don't know what's different in your game, but the games I've played, I only get 2 shields when I disband a warrior, not 5. Trading a 10 shield warrior for 2 shields of 'real production' isn't such a hot deal....

[Velociryx]

Hey guy, and thank you for the vote of confidence! I think that, even tho we don't have a banner saying as much, we do have a thread in this one that's been viewed more than ten thousand times in the span of less than a week....solid indication that lossa folks are dropping by here to read, so that's a good thing!

Been thinking too....one of the very best ways to really get the ol' heart skipping several beats with regards to the game is to generate lots of fanfic. To that end, I've been following the excellent AAR's posted in the fiction section of this board, and have been toying with the notion of putting something similar together....don't know if the game outlined above will qualify since I didn't make any notes to myself covering....oh...the first five thousand years or so, and there's no guarantee that it'll be truly compelling, but I'll try and either finish it out tonight, or come damnably close to it, and I should be able to tell by then if it'd make a worthy story....still, I have to admit that it's been a terriffic game so far, what with out-settling to of the expansionist-oriented civs, and (something I failed to mention in my earlier reporting of it), a TON of problems with barbarian hordes! In addition to lots of aggresive towns (many of which in hard to root out mountains), there were FOUR "horde invasions" which ransacked three of my fledgling towns repeatedly, causing loss of production, population and troops....to say nothing of the hit to the treasury.

Still, the position was just soooo good that I doggedly kept at it, finally settled out the barbarians (the last mountain stronghold cost me six warriors and I STILL never rooted them out, so I finally settled a town nearby, rushed in a temple and when the borders expanded...poof.

That was pretty intense, and of course, some early border tension between me, the Americans and the Rus....so I guess there's enough raw material for a decent yarn, but the point where the game is now will be telling.....it could just go so many different ways.

I intentionally tried to get by with only building warriors, hoping to hold off on anything better til musketeers, cos they're upgradable to modern infantry, which make excellent city defense, and I'm just now building the first of those.

So....first step will be to modernize the military and simply retire my long-standing warrior corps. Once I do that, I'm thinking that I'll turn inward to bulk up infrastructure and attempt to hold off hitting the Rus until I can go in with tanks vs. whatever they have at that point. If I attack, I'll definitely want to sweep them off the continent, but they DO have colonial holdings on a few scattered islands, so I'm thinking a two-part war....part one will be a drive for the capitol, and a holding action against their "finger cities." As part of the peace settlement, I'll ask for all their island cities as well. I've had good luck in previous wars (other games) in asking for cities near the action but never taken, so we shall see.

Then, I'll see if I can goad them into attacking me a second time, when they're isolated to a few holdings on the peninsula south of me and put them out of their misery.

One thing though....I don't wanna be a global conquerer in this game, but I do see the need for thinning the herd a bit, and I think a quick conquest to grab a few ancient era wonders and some new territory might be just the thing to catapult me into a solid first place as a world power.

Feels wierd tho, being in the middle ages and still running in third place...lol...I love getting bested by the AI! I think it speaks volumes about the care and effort that went into the creating of our computer opponents!

So....I guess this is also something of a "Vel shopping for ideas" thing too....

Glance over the "Veloci la France" post and let me know what you'd do if you were in my shoes. As I see it, my basic choices/the basic situation are/is:

1) A Gracious America to my west - we're connected via a one tile wide land bridge, with forts built up on both sides. They are excellent trading partners, and I could probably rely on them in a war later.

2) The Rus are a marginal, backwater power and would be easy enough to take out, but the drawback there is that the real estate they hold isn't all that valuable (which is part of the reason I didn't bother to settle it). Still, it's an easy conquest, would require no tricky logistics as far as reinforcements go, and would still see sufficient gains as to catapult me into the top spot.

3) The continent that the Germans, et. al are on is filled to the brim with cities of other cultures. There is no option of settling anywhere on that continent. If I were to go, it would be as an invader, unless I could somehow buy a town from one of the civs. In any case, it's pretty far away.

4) The Greeks have a fine civilization built, and are actually right with me, culturally. They have better tech than the Rus, and a more cohesive empire, so it would be a significantly harder fight to knock them out. On the other hand, acquiring the continent they're on and absorbing all that rich culture would put me in a position of almost instant dominance. And, I DO have a toehold on their continent already, thanks to the little American city that defected....

Thoughts?


-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Chris...my bad...LOL...yep...I was thinking spearmen and writing about warriors....true, it's not great, and I'm still wrestling with ways to make little clusters of crap towns into viable production centers....that's where I am so far, but I'm still workin' on it!

-=Vel=-

[ChrisShaffer]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In the meantime, I set two towns to making some improvement or expensive unit (making sure that they’re the “closest town” to my lumberjack crews), and let the others make warriors, to hop over to one of the towns that are actually making something important and disbanding. Trading a 10-shield warrior for 5 shields of “real” production is actually TONS better than the rate of corruption in some of these towns, and in the absence of any good options for speeding construction of needed goods (no caravan/crawler cashing, for which I am glad!), it represents one way to make the production time respectable.

Vel, I don't know what's different in your game, but the games I've played, I only get 2 shields when I disband a warrior, not 5. Trading a 10 shield warrior for 2 shields of 'real production' isn't such a hot deal....

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Velociryx
4) The Greeks have a fine civilization built, and are actually right with me, culturally. They have better tech than the Rus, and a more cohesive empire, so it would be a significantly harder fight to knock them out. On the other hand, acquiring the continent they're on and absorbing all that rich culture would put me in a position of almost instant dominance. And, I DO have a toehold on their continent already, thanks to the little American city that defected....

I'm curious... do you know why the American city defected to you? Was it adjacent to any of your territory? Did it have any of your foreign nationals in its population?

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer
Vel, I don't know what's different in your game, but the games I've played, I only get 2 shields when I disband a warrior, not 5. Trading a 10 shield warrior for 2 shields of 'real production' isn't such a hot deal....

Disbanding units in Civ3 gives 1/4 their production value (rounded down) in shields instead of Civ2's 1/2 production value.

If producing a wonder disbanding gives 0 shields (I think). Not sure yet about lumberjacking re wonders.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Hiya Soren! I was kinna curious about that as well...I'd have thought it would have been absorbed by the Greeks, being on their continent and all....but I guess my capitol is actually closer to it than the Greek capitol (their large island/small continent is roughly rectangular in shape, with it's longest borders running north and south....the American city is at the extreme north tip, near the continent we share, and the Greek capitol is much more to the south)....

I don't *think* our borders are touching across the narrow sea that separates us, but I'd have to check the map when I get home to make sure. Needless to say, I was MOST pleasantly surprised by the acquisition....been toying with the notion of temporarily relocating the capitol there just to see if I can scarf up a few more cities....now that I'm stronger culturally, when I relocate the capitol away again, I should be able to hold onto them.

Anyway, I'll check the border thing when I get out of here and go back to continue my game!

-=Vel=-

You wouldn't happen to have a save game from before the city converted would you? If so, please post it... I'd like to take a look.

I was wondering who would first come up with the "palace rush" strategy, so I shouldn't be surprised that it was you...

[Velociryx]

Hiya Soren! I was kinna curious about that as well...I'd have thought it would have been absorbed by the Greeks, being on their continent and all....but I guess my capitol is actually closer to it than the Greek capitol (their large island/small continent is roughly rectangular in shape, with it's longest borders running north and south....the American city is at the extreme north tip, near the continent we share, and the Greek capitol is much more to the south)....

I don't *think* our borders are touching across the narrow sea that separates us, but I'd have to check the map when I get home to make sure. Needless to say, I was MOST pleasantly surprised by the acquisition....been toying with the notion of temporarily relocating the capitol there just to see if I can scarf up a few more cities....now that I'm stronger culturally, when I relocate the capitol away again, I should be able to hold onto them.

Anyway, I'll check the border thing when I get out of here and go back to continue my game!

-=Vel=-

[SerapisIV]

Hey Vel, great stories. Any chance of posting a few zoomed out screen shots so we can all get some visuals on your game?

[vmxa1]

I am not sure what is more depressing to me, that I am failing to grasp this game or hearing so many that are having no big problems. I played SMAC and all of the Civs from Civ1-3, CTP1/2 and several difficulty levels, but can not get the hang of this even at chieftain. Tried rex, tried standard ways, tiny to standard sizes and many civs. All end up breaking down at various points. Either the unhappiness or attacks gets me on the ropes. The best shot was culture win on my first try, but I ran out of time and global warming was getting bad (yeah, I had recycle and no factories, go figure). Pollution was a daily thing, some times more than one out break a day? I must be doing something wrong, but really, the easiest level should not be a struggle for an experienced gammer. I can understand at the next level or so, but man. I was always a non fan of the overload of unhappy citizens, but even when all the good stuff is up and you have most of the wonders and roads to the capital and even FP, they still get disorder??? How unhappy are the people in Beverly Hills, do tey wreck the town? Why is it a declaration of war to whack settlers in your territory? They are the same as a spy to me and should be fair game, no penalty in in your area or at least go back to expelling. I know everone says let them go and absorb the town, but who wants it at that time? It is of no value often if it is real close to other towns. I guess I need a step hand holding guide, of well back to try another tack. Nightmare mode in LOD was a lot easy.

[Enigma]

I am a big fan of "early game land grabs", via expansion or conquering. I end up conquering in the early game in most games even when I intend to be a builder, because of this the persians are quite nifty.

They have a 83% win frequency with veteran immortals attacking fortified spearmen in a city... with elite immortals that moves up to 90%!

I need to play this game a lot more before I can start making generalizations... all that I am sure about so far is that Industrious is good. So as of right now Persians are my number 1 choice because of the Immortals... France probably number 2, I would like to try the Egyptians, they would seem to be good at having productive cities (happier people due to temples, more productive due to good workers).

Keep posting Vel... I have a feeling that games will be much more "unique" in civ3 due to random resources, start locations, and overall AI interactions.

vmxa if pollution bothers you play with an Industrious civ, it can never hurt to have workers that work at double the speed!

Next game is definatly as French, since shields and commerce lose the exact same percent as corruption in any individual city I should be able to effectively analyze how much money I am gaining by being Commercial... I would be surprised if it where more than 6%

Other thoughts-
I think people will really have to change how they analyze themselves as "momentum" players or "builders", I think civ3 will make everyone a hybrid. The highly randomized game elements will be part of it, but also the entire resource control system, and the more effective enemy AI. Having high research isn't all that useful if it angers every other civ at you, and those civs can conquer you easily. It seems to help to not stick out too much in this game. Having a lot of land can reinforce your builder tendencies by having a lot of luxuries, and tech moves slowly enough in this game it is easy for me to keep up in Infrastructure and military units.

Going back to early game conquering: To me the industrial age is vital, where the winners and losers of the game are chosen. By putting yourself in a strong position at the start of the Industrial age you are more likely to be one of the people who comes out ahead... it is handy not having to trade other civs for any other resources.

Luxuries overall have a much much larger affect on happiness than facilities, it is possible to get 20 happy faces from luxuries, that number is about 6 with facilities (errr buildings)

A "defensive war" isn't necissarily more efficient than a war that is more hybridized, for example if you know you are about to be attacked and want to be a nice little builder, it may be much cheaper for you to quickly take a city so that your enemy has no rubber than for you to fortify every city with garrisons.

[Zurai001]

Originally posted by Enigma
I need to play this game a lot more before I can start making generalizations... all that I am sure about so far is that Industrious is good. So as of right now Persians are my number 1 choice because of the Immortals... France probably number 2, I would like to try the Egyptians, they would seem to be good at having productive cities (happier people due to temples, more productive due to good workers).

I used to be a fan of France, until I played the Egyptians. Religious is sooo much better than Commercial, even considering that Commercial gets a corruption reducer. I'm able to pump out temples and cathedrals in new cities quickly, so my culture skyrockets, and I'm quite frankly addicted to 1 turn roads and railroads (let alone mines and irrigation!). The unique unit isn't so hot, basically horsemen that can't go into jungle or mountains but are 33% less expensive, but hey, I can live with that.

[Enigma]

But doesn't Scientific seem better to you? I think that the religion bonus reduced anarchy bonus may be slightly better than the extra techs you get when you reach a new eral, but I would much rather build libraries universities and research labs. Besides science affects all 3 of these improvements, religion affects only temples and cathedrals. Science buildings seem to give me more culture than religious ones (temple 2, Library 3)...

But hey I agree with you about industrial, I am just about to undergo the industrial revolution and I can't wait to start building a rail network to connect my empire.

And as far as the Egyptian UU not being so hot... have you taken a peek at immortals

Wait longbowmen, what are those, why would someone want to build a unit with four offense and only one defense for extra minerals?

Immortals are like longbowmen on steroids that you can get earlier and build more quickly... plus they have a cool name!

[D4everman]

Vel, I have a question.

If you take those cities on a different continent won't they be near useless due to corruption? I've had the same problem with some cities on an island that I took from the French in one of my games. I've rush built practically all of the improvements in them, but they still suffer from almost crippling corruption.

I'd just like to know how you'd handle corruption since your good at the strategy tips!

[remconius]

Wow this is excellent stuff!

Vel: Just wondering if you have a website where you document all this great information, or if you supply it to any website.

I just filtered out all your comments into a 26 page worddocument. Will be reading it on the train home, cant wait to go.

It is great information for gamers everywhere!

[stiel]

Hey Vel,

I want to add something.

You want to attack Russia, maybe I have a suggestion that you could use, it's called:

STIELS CRUSH THE COUNTRY IN ONE TURN!!!

You have to do following:

-Determ where Russia's capital is
-Look if you can reach it with units in one turn (bombers)
-Make plenty of units to attack the capital

When you have a big seized army, do following:

-ATTACK ALL ROADS THAT ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THE CAPITAL!

Why?
1. The Russians wont aqcuire strategic resources (cannot build modern units any more)
2. The Russian wont acquire luxury recources (which will cause civil dissorder in whole Russia)

But keep in mind: DO NOT TAKE THE CAPITAL!
If there is a HARBOR in the city destroy it!
If there is a AIRPORT in the city destroy it!
Very important because the Russians will built in in another city and then you'll have to start all over again.

When you have done this you are in the position a conquer Russia, the Russian will be very weak.

Try it and you'll love it!