Open letter to Firaxis from the scenario community

[wotan321]

Mark G sez:

naah....

Well, I was just confused....you said

here are some news: there will be a reply. but i dont know anything on how soon it will be or how good news it will bring, except that there will be an update on the editor(something that has been said several times of course)

I just figured it was going to happen before the patch that's supposed to arrive before the end of the month...which is a week away...

Any news from Firaxis would be a good thing.

[Akka]

Originally posted by Roman


Well and these things it cannot do are exactly crucial for making scenarios. Heck, without the placement of civ specific starting locations, cities, units, etc. it is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE TO MAKE SCENARIOS.

If you have read my post to its end, you should remember that I said :

"I mean, this game is full of flaws and has a lot of places where it's a step back from Civ2 and AC, so why bash it where it's better ???
No scenario sucks, but rules are customisable to the bones."

See ? I was talking about the RULES, not the SCENARIOS. I stated that I talked about the RULES editor in the very first few sentences of my post. I was NOT talking about SCENARIOS.

[Roman]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
See ? I was talking about the RULES, not the SCENARIOS. I stated that I talked about the RULES editor in the very first few sentences of my post. I was NOT talking about SCENARIOS.

Fair enough.

However it is the lack of scenario making capabilities that angers me, not the lack of rule editing and I think most of the posters in this thread feel the same.

[Roman]

*bump* #X and still no reply!

[korn469]

Akka le Vil

while you are correct that civ3 does allow the player many oppertunities to change rules, still many rules are hardcoded and can't be changed and firaxis should address this also in addition to the ability to actually make scenarios which is as disappointing as not including multiplayer

[Blaupanzer]

Saying that you want scenario developer feed back and then not responding when you get some is very contradictory. Since scenarios cannot be created currently, the initial response would seem predictable, "Hey, WTF!" Therefore, plenty of time was available to craft a reply. That the fanatics ultimately come second to a developer with a best-selling game is not at all surprising. However, ignoring them seems particularly infuriating. Why not say when (or if) units and cities will be able to be placed, accessed, etc.? Why say you want feedback from this community unless you intend to enable them to do their thing? I'm a little disappointed in Firaxis (and in Sid) that a month has passed since release without a word on this.

[Dienstag]

I'm disappointed too, and trying to be patient. I suppose there isn't a whole lot Firaxis could say right now (other than: "here's your editor on a silver platter") that wouldn't just cause more controversy. And while I think we deserve some communication from them, we really don't want to give them the impression of a torch-wielding mob like from one of those old horror movies.

Any chance that electing a special-representative to Firaxis would help? That's what they do in touchy international crisis negatiations, so it might be appropriate here.

[TCO]

Who should be our representative? Yin? Venger?

[Dienstag]

Who should be our representative?

I was just throwing out an idea.... hopefully Firaxis would be more comfortable (if that's what it takes) dealing with the one guy representing the Apolyton group. Who that representative would be or how selected, I don't know. I would hesitate to mention any names until at least a bunch of people agree with the representative idea. One thing at a time, and judging from our present situation there's no hurry.

[techumseh]

Excuse me, but this is an open letter from the scenario community. We've chosen an approach and agreed on the message. MarkG has agreed to convey our message and will let us know when (and if) there's a reply. Apparently, there's some indication that a reply may be forthcoming. Thanks for your support, but let's be patient a while longer.

[Dienstag]

Sorry. I'm well aware of your open letter to Firaxis and MarkG's conveyance thereof, and I really hope something comes of it. I really didn't mean to suggest circumventing your approach or message on this... I basically broke the "think before posting" commandment, there.
My apologies, and best wishes to the scenario community.

-Dienstag

[techumseh]

Thanks. No harm done.

[TCO]

Well...I found another reason for why we need the editor fixed. The game lacks a cheat menu. So for people who want to do investigational testing, we need editor ability.

[wotan321]

bump

[wotan321]

Hey, has anyone mentioned that to create scenarios we need to be able to have text boxes pop up on the screen? I have seen nothing in the editor to do this! When an event happens... we need to be told what is happening to progress the scenario and add "realism". So Firaxis... we need an "Events" tab in the scenario editor, please.

If you ask me, (and face it, you were going to...) this is as important as flat maps and unit placement.


...oh, and I'd like to be able to place landmarks on the map, too.

Any comments?

[Kalmer]

I don't believe that there will never be any real scenarios for Civ3 during next few years.

They said somewhere that there is no internal support for anything like events in the engine. The best what is possible is to make Map Editor where you can change the map and place units/cities. + Ability to write some texts messages which appear during the scenario. But no real events.

[ToD.MB]

I've just started another thread today on this and thought no-one had noticed this bewildering error! A kind fellow called Quinalla pointed this thread to me.



Surely this is nonsense! Recreating WWII, or some other historical conflict is what Civ (to me) is all about. The random worlds are great, but what is the point in naming Civs after real ones, such as Rome and Babylon, if you're playing on an imaginary map?

Might as well call all the Civs 'Hychronians', Bothanians', etc., or some other fictional name if you're on a made-up map.

The Romans aren't Romans unless they start in Italy. The USA isn't the USA if it's on some daft crummy little island in the middle of an imaginary sea!

I want to play as Britain in Europe (with some colonies like Auz, SA and Canada), and build up from there, and have the USA as a trusted ally while messing around in Europe and Asia (bit like reality in the near past).

I'll get bored invading imaginary islands that call themselves 'Greece' or whatever when they're not!

Firaxis - THIS MUST BE SORTED - the Civ community (which ensures your vast profits and popularity) has been sorely and bewilderingly let down.

You did it in Civ2 - why the ommission in Civ3?

[techumseh]

I've had it. While it's been obvious for some time now that Firaxis had no intention of responding to this open letter, I thought I'd let it go a couple of weeks longer, just in case anyone still had doubts. While I'm disappointed, I can't say I'm surprised.

This is part of a pattern of disregard for fans and customers by Ifogrames/Firaxis which has become all too obvious since the release of the game. Smug self-satisfaction was quickly replaced with defensive silence when fans showed that the holy name of Sid Meier was not enough to compensate for serious deficiencies and unkept promises. Since then, we've seen the appalling action of Infogrames, taking legal action against a German fan for undertaking modifications initially encouraged by Firaxis. This comes after the Limited Edition scandal which was nothing more than a bait and switch scam.

There is another reason, too. They just can't deliver on many of the things we've asked for, and don't want to admit it. As Harlan Thompson has shown, other than those things which can be changed by the built in editor, there is precious little in this game that can be modified. Early on, Firaxis decided against including a "cheat-mode". This decision probably doomed scenario making from the start, though we didn't realize it at the time. I don't know if the ability to place units can be incorporated into a patch, but I have my doubts. Another thread on this forum has demonstrated, to my satisfaction at least, the the game is also very unsuited to multi-player use. And that may be the reason it was not included despite being promised, rather than because it is being saved for a sequel, as many of us believed.

I respect those who enjoy the game, because it does have many good aspects. Graphically it's great, and there are many features I'd love to use in a scenario. But personally, after playing it a couple of times, I find it tedious. I don't think it has the replay value of its' predecessors. It has high initial sales due to the Civilization name, Sid Meier's (now damaged) reputation, and gushy reviews from gaming mags. But I think the reviews on these boards are far more accurate and predictive than any written by those high paid reviewers for the gaming magazines. So I don't think it's sales will be sustained for long. In the end, it will likely be a one year wonder. And that's too bad, because that makes it less likely that Infogrames or another publisher will be willing to invest in a sequel or even an update.

I will await the patch, though without much hope for a scenario making fix. In the meantime, I've gone back to Test of Time, easily the most underrated Civ game of all. It's the antithesis of Civ3 - a good game with bad graphics!

[Case]

Well, it's now December and there's still no details on the patch, or an anouncement of a upcoming scenario pack

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Case
Well, it's now December and there's still no details on the patch, or an anouncement of a upcoming scenario pack

the patch was probably delayed for one more week or something. a list of features will be posted only a couple of days before, perhaps even on the same day

expansion pack are usually not announced only 30 days after release....

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by MarkG
expansion pack are usually not announced only 30 days after release....

So, how long will we wait and what miracles have we to do in order to have the second part of the game? (quest-like release)

[Yoleus]

Strange, nobody replied my previous post.

(you will never know if this is a "bump" or not)

[KaiserIsak]

One important thing is the ability to turn the "exchange connections" of or on. Its VERY unlogical that France can exchange connections and then trade tech with china in the 10th century.

[Libertarian]

How 'bout a completely abstracted infinitely recursive gate manifold?

[H Tower]

did a firaxian ever respond to this?

[Bane Star]

You know what I wanted from Civ3?
Civ2 with less limits in editing:
More troop slots (at least 256, if not 512 or 1024)
allowing all possible choices of what the troop does
More building slots with choices in what the building does
More wonder slots with choices in what the wonder does
More technology slots with up to 8 required techs.
More terrain slots
material requirements for techs/building/troops/wonders

Troop/building/wonder techs required to build, up to 8

A racial maker in the games opening screen (choose face, building types, strengths, weaknesses, motto) so not only can you design the world your about to play, but also the race your about to play.

multiple road/river types, at least 8 choices, and have the 'movement cost reduction' divide the land not the troops movement (moving via road across mountains should still be slower)

You know what I got from that whole list?
Material requirements for troops (p.s. which can be a real pain in the butt, I played a small map that had no iron)

but at the cost of having no editing abilities? PAH

I love all the extra stuff, they put alot of time and effort into alot of new great implementaions, at the cost of the original ideas.

[Grim Legacy]

There is a good chance the details of the patch will be available tomorrow. Let's see what it brings.

Considering the full month between release and this patch, I hope to see a bit more than the Air Superiority bug fixed.

[Yoleus]

Ok, now we see the patch, and it seems it is rushed itself
Opinions? Do we take this "open letter" as dead?

P.S.:
Libertarian, I have reading your posts here and there... you
are the most magnificent troll - CivIII paladin that I know of.
Really.

[Libertarian]

Too kind.

And yes, your letter is dead.

[IamChinese]

After reading some posts in this threads, I really can't resist the temptation to point out one thing.

Firaxis has released an incomplete game, period. Right now, I have got the Limited Edition of the Civ3 in my hands. So let me read you this from the back of the box.

Key Features
Game Editor Suite lets you create customized civilizations, maps and rules.

Okay, how many of you have tried to create a civilization by using the editor alone? Probably none, because it will crash the game. And not only you can't create customized civs, everytime you try to create something using that useless editor, you need to modify the txt files as well. So, pray tell me, what is the point of having the editor if we have to manually edit the files just like CivIII and CTP?

Now, maybe we cannot call it false advertising, but let's face it, we are not getting exactly what we paid for.

I know many people would say, "stop whinging, Firaxis will release patches to fix the editor', but it is also because of this attitude that gives those game developers excuses to release intentionally incomplete games. Because they know the gamers will be willingly (almost too willingly) waiting for the patches.

In addition, I can't believe those people who said something like: " Oh, you guys give them [the people in Firaxis] a break, you only have to pay a small amount and you get a great game, what more can you expect?" I wonder if these people are Firaxisians? I am not sure about you guys, but I paid AUS$109.95 for my civIII. And that is not a small amount of money. Consider the following the situation:

You bought a VCR, then you found out the remote control was missing, and the recording function was not working. Okay, you called the shop, and they said the remote would be shipped to you in a month, and the recording function would be fixed soon (but not sure the exact date!).

Now, tell me, are you going to sit back and do nothing? Are you going to say to yourself, oh, give them a break, I only paid a few hundred bucks and I got the most brilliant machine in the world. Are you going to do that?

I am not saying this is a bad game. What I am trying to say is that I've bought an incomplete product, and I am entitled to make my complaints here.

So, people from Firaxis, I think you guys should stop distributing the video cds in the limited edition of the game, 'cause it is so embrassing! I really couldn't stop laughing when I saw the video after trying out the game.