LE scandal - Firaxians, there has to be an explanation to 75,000 customers!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
Sid's notes would have been enjoying to read, but I suppose Firaxis thinks that their competitors might steal Sid's ideas.

There are not too many 'Sid´s ideas' in it. Look at the Credits (from start page): Sid is mentioned only as the inventor of the original CivI.

They do not claim he even had a hand in designing CivIII; apparently he was completely busy with SimGolf.

So if he didn´t take part in designing CivIII at all, how can there be 'Sid´s Designer´s Notes'?

[scientist]

I think it is pretty clear that Brian Reynolds was the true driving force behind SMAC and Civ II. Maybe he jumped ship when he saw the direction Firaxis was going...

I love the new Civ III, but I really wonder what happened to the creative spark in Mr. Meier. Dinosaurs might not have been as profitable, in the end, but probably more creatively satisfying.

But hey, maybe there really aren't designer notes worth making. In a way, Civ III is really just a huge bug patch, game balancing of Civ II, which dod the same for Civ 1. The game really hasn't changed that fundamentally in the last 10 years...

I'm just pissed off for being such a sucker and spending an extra ten bucks for a stupid biscuit tin.

[Xentronium]

Hi,

Ok, first off -- I saw a list of what was included in the LE edition for Civ III and it didn't excite me. So, I don't know why exactly people wanted it... I suppose the tin can might be worth something to a hardcore Civ 3 fan. In any case, I was dissapointed that a tech tree wasn't a standard with the game itself -- isn't that supposed to be the case? I mean from what I understand the LE edition is pathetic as it is... but it seems like an oversight not to have a real tech tree poster shipped with the regular edition.

I'm not usually interested in special edition packages just because I normally care for the game alone. I would like to mention that it would be nice for publishers to ship EXTRAS with special edition boxes, not stuff they omit from the regular edition - as mentioned above. I've looked over the items that were supposed to be in the LE edition of Civ3 and I - personally speaking - thought that there wasn't anything really compeling in there. Most other special edition boxes had at least 1 or 2 things that I could perhaps consider "special" enough to get. This game was expensive enough as it was and it only had a manual and a cd with it.

As far as the game is concerned, I can't help but feel a bit dissapointed by the fact that I think I paid for a new Civ game but I sort of got a remake. Don't get me wrong, any remake of a Civ game would be fun... and it is... but this game didn't blow me away -- I think it's pretty accurate to say I now have an upgraded version of Civ 2. The game also seemed to be rushed quite a bit -- and I was looking over the editor and when I noticed you couldn't play with units and cities I was in a complete state of disbelief. I'm not that affected by the fact there are no scenarios for the game, but the fact that you CANNOT make your own right now is very upseting. It's sort of sad in a way, I was hoping for Civ3 to be one of the most memorable games of this year at the very least... I just can't say it will - can you?

Sincerely,
Xentronium

[Bubba_B]

Xen....

"Civ in a can"

Nuf said.


Was dissapointed however.

[Earthling7]

When I pre-ordered Civ3 LE, it was supposed to be:

1 Tn Can (included as that's what you see before you buy)
1 Game CD (included)
1 Video CD (included, but containing previously released infomercial video and a Sid-is-God-and-here's-the-award-to-show-it video)
1 Manual (included)
1 Tech Tree (said to be a poster, turns out to be screen shots complete with the Done button)
1 Designer Notes (ommitted)
1 Letter from Sid and Jeff (included)

So, if you want to know why we stupid peoples ordered it, that's why. I ordered it for the designer notes. It was supposed to be a second book.

But hey, if a "thanx-now-go-away" letter qualifies as designer notes, I am going to write a Strategy Guide. It will be as follows:
The CD will auto-run. Select setup and follow the instructions. Consult the manual if you're not sure.

[scientist]

It sounds like most people, myself included, wanted the LE for the designer notes, which was the one part they failed to deliver.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by scientist
It sounds like most people, myself included, wanted the LE for the designer notes, which was the one part they failed to deliver.

I toyed for a moment with the thought of buying the LE because of -you guessed it! - the designer´s notes. I decided not to buy it, because I was pretty sure this would be only a small 16-page-booklet not really worth the price.

However, hearing they omitted them completely surprised even me- they get my Chuzpah of the Month Award for November!

[dsteckel]

Gee, I'm really impressed with my LE!

Tech Tree Poster - Wow! Saved me the trouble of making four screenshots, reducing them, printing them, and taping them together. Thanks!

"Making of Civ3" CD - Wow! Nothing's more exciting than watching a story about a computer game being developed--especially when it's the third iteration! Look at those guys work on the computers! This is better than watching paint dry!

Letter from Sid and Jeff - Wow! Nothing like a mass-produced letter to make me feel special! Of course, Sid and Jeff's names aren't signed, merely typed, in the signature, but I just know those words are truly theirs and heartfelt and not written by some faceless marketing guy. The lovely italic font completely makes up for the missing designer notes!

Of course, the best thing of all about the LE was the privilege of paying $60 to be a beta tester!

Thanks, Firaxis! I'm sure I'll remember this lovely experience the next time I see one of your games in the store! I'll be sure to tell my friends and spread the joy on the bulletin boards I frequent!

Dar Steckelberg

[Icarus Flu]

Personaly I bought the LE for the joke of a Tech Tree - with Civ II I was always refering back to it

Now im temted to send it back Infrogames in protest

[scientist]

I've been thinking of writing a letter to infogrames or friaxis or both about the rip-off LE. I just don't know if it is worth the bother.

The truth is that I really like Civ III. It is definitely buggy and shows the sign of a rushed, unpolished release, and I hope that these problems are fixed in patches. One of the most frustrating problems is the turn lag. On a large map, as the game progresses, it is very slow. This dort of reminds me of SMAC, when air units movement would be very slow in the latter part of a game. Since there is no hard drive swapping going on, I suspect this is due to poorly written, though not buggy, code.

I'd be impressed if Firaxis or Infogrames publically addressed the LE rip-off and buggy/slow code issues.

Civ III has the potential to be a great game, but in its current beta version, which is being playtested by tens of thousands of devoted fans, it is not there yet. I hope it gets there. But it requires that Infogrames and Firaxis be concerned with serving the community, rather than milking us for bucks and then moving on.

In the long run, a loyal community will spend more money than one that is wary of being ripped off. Sure it takes some extrq work on Firaxis/Infogrames side, but it pays off with a reliable market. Take us for granted and rip us off, and they might find that they are alienating their audience and assuring a shrinking market for their products.

Most video games are puerile crap, but the puerile crap has a bigger audience. Intelligent games like Civ III has a smaller audience, but we are loyal and we won't put up with too much crap.

I really wish I didn't get the feeling I was being taken advantage of, but I do.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by dsteckel

Tech Tree Poster - Wow! Saved me the trouble of making four screenshots, reducing them, printing them, and taping them together. Thanks!

That wouldn't have taken many minutes.
And the techs would have been correct and that stupid Done
button would have been excluded.

[Rasbelin]

I still can't see the Civ III LE as a proper product in its current form. It's like playing a dirty trick on decent civers.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
I still can't see the Civ III LE as a proper product in its current form. It's like playing a dirty trick on decent civers.

And coming from the Bikkie King, that's saying something.

I bought the LE for three reasons:
- The tech tree. Yeah, this was the big one.
- The fact that the EB shop I was standing in right at that moment hadn't received its shipment of the SEs and I didn't want to wait another two days
- The designer notes. I was expacting maybe 16 or 24 pages with concept art, the rationale behind what was included and so forth... A guide to the designer's thoughts when constructing the game.

I got:
- Ripped off.

Thanks, Infogrames. Ta a million. Couldn't you at least have got the screenshots correct? It'll be quite a while before I buy anything more from that company.

Not happy, Jan. NOT HAPPY.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
First of all, I don´t think LaRusso is a 'Disgruntled Individual' (Apolyton) , rather, his complaint about the missing Designer´s Notes is entirely justified. Second, I don´t buy the given 'explanation' at all. It was Firaxis, who promised those notes in the first place, not Infogrames, so it was up to Firaxis to make sure they are in there.

Promises, Schmomises!

Hehe, Comrade well...thank you! I am really not 'digruntled' - actually I very rarely complain about anything. DanQ, thanx for putting it as news, it would also be VERY cool if one of the future Firaxis interviews could include the question about designer's notes...I see that many more people than one 'disgruntled individual' feel a bit ripped off

[Rasbelin]

I suppose Civ III should be the crown jevel of Firaxis, right? In that case, why haven't they put more effort on a Designer's Notes book and the standard manual? Too expensive? Isn't that's why we are paying for the game?

The manual Gettysburg (made by Firaxis) was excellent compared to Civ III's handbook. Civ II had a thick one that beats the one of Civ III. I just can't understand how Firaxis has gone so deep. The manual is more like a joke and insult. And where are those notes?

[scientist]

Calling the documentation included with Sid Meier's Civil War game is an understatement.

It had a great "cheat sheet" with shortcuts, a thorough, comprehensive manual, and a very classy strategy guide. It was probably the best included documentation that I've ever come across.

It seems that computer game companies now deliberately skimp on included manuals so that people will be forced to spend another $20 on the "strategy guide". What's really sad is that the "official" Civ III guide is not much more informative than the included manual.

And now for my standard confession: Civ III is a good game with the potential to be great.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by scientist
It had a great "cheat sheet" with shortcuts, a thorough, comprehensive manual, and a very classy strategy guide. It was probably the best included documentation that I've ever come across.
...
It seems that computer game companies now deliberately skimp on included manuals so that people will be forced to spend another $20 on the "strategy guide.
...
And now for my standard confession: Civ III is a good game with the potential to be great.

Yes, and yes, and yes.

1. There are a lot of good things to say about CivIII.
2. There are a lot of bad things to say about Firaxian attitude toward their customers.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

2. There are a lot of bad things to say about Firaxian attitude toward their customers.

Not entirely fair. The LE was Infogrames' debacle, not Firaxis'. Firaxis made the game for Infogrames to package and sell. Firaxis was responsible for developing the software, so they have to wear the responsibility for bugs and broken rules. Infogrames carries the can for ripping people off, and (possibly) for rushing Firaxis to release the game before it was ready to go.

If Infogrames promised that Designer Notes would be included, but forgot to contract Firaxis to write and assemble them, or if they made up a tech tree "poster" in ten minutes with MacPaint, that's still Infogrames' fault.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by BigNick
Not entirely fair. The LE was Infogrames' debacle, not Firaxis'. Firaxis made the game for Infogrames to package and sell. Firaxis was responsible for developing the software, so they have to wear the responsibility for bugs and broken rules. Infogrames carries the can for ripping people off, and (possibly) for rushing Firaxis to release the game before it was ready to go.

If Infogrames promised that Designer Notes would be included, but forgot to contract Firaxis to write and assemble them, or if they made up a tech tree "poster" in ten minutes with MacPaint, that's still Infogrames' fault.

Absolutely, totally wrong.

Assuming they are not on talking terms with their distributors is a ridiculous try of whitewashing Firaxis.

If Infogrames promised wrong things in the name of Firaxis, then Firaxis should sue them. This would be the *only* thing to convince me it´s not their fault.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Absolutely, totally wrong.

Assuming they are not on talking terms with their distributors is a ridiculous try of whitewashing Firaxis.

If Infogrames promised wrong things in the name of Firaxis, then Firaxis should sue them. This would be the *only* thing to convince me it´s not their fault.

You are joking, aren't you?

Infogrames did not promise anything in Firaxis' name. They promised that things would be in a product that they (Infogrames) would sell to you (you).

Firaxis promised you nothing. You don't have any commercial dealings with Firaxis. It's hardly Firaxis' responsibility to try to live up to claims that they didn't make. They might try to do so in order that damage isn't done to the goodwill generated by the Civ franchise, but Firaxis made no promises to you regarding the LE. CHeck their website - the LE isn't even mentioned there.

[TCO]

I find it hard to beleive that Firaxis did not know about the need for items for the LE. Infogrames and Firaxis were collaborating on the project. Also, Firaxis had earlier mentioned "extra scenarios" for the LE. Surely, as contents changed as the game was rushed, Firaxis was informed of what was needed.

[TCO]

Actually your logical recourse is to the store you bought it from (unless purchased direct.)

[CyberGnu]

Even money says BigNick is a Firaxis employee...

[BigNick]

Originally posted by GP
I find it hard to beleive that Firaxis did not know about the need for items for the LE.

How do you know they were asked for them? As Dan said a day or two after release, Firaxis didn't even receive a LE copy.

Infogrames and Firaxis were collaborating on the project.

On the Civ3 project? You'd assume so. On the LE project? Who knows?

Also, Firaxis had earlier mentioned "extra scenarios" for the LE.

At one point, they did, but I don't recall seeing mention of that on the box I bought, or any official advertising for it. As such, I didn't buy the LE based on the promise that one would be included, and I can't hold anyone responsible for its omission.

Surely, as contents changed as the game was rushed, Firaxis was informed of what was needed.

Who knows? Dan (and Soren, and others) has been ominously silent on the question of whether the Designer Notes and so forth were produced, but who can say whether or not the contract between Firaxis and Infogrames required the Notes to be provided? Can you be sure that Infogrames didn't go off and promise things they weren't entitled to?

In short, Infogrames produced and advertised the LE. This makes my argument with them. Infogrames and Firaxis may have had some sort of deal to produce a game of some kind, but I'm not privy to (and I'm not entitled to be privy to) any dealings back behind that. As far as I (from a consumer's perspective) can see, my dealings are with Electronics Boutique (retailer), Ozisoft (distributor) and Infogrames (manufacturer). Firaxis was just an external contractor that Infogrames brought in to work on something for them, and whose employees offer bits and pieces of advice from time to time.

Firaxis has no responsibility to live up to Infogrames' marketing claims. How can they? They're just an external employee. If an Infogrames Marketing lackey drank a litre of absinthe and smoked three packs of Gauloise for lunch, then came back and issued a press release promising all purchasers of the LE would receive an indentured servant by returning their Proof of Purchase, it's the responsibility of Infogrames to produce a slave for every boxtop they get back. The agreement between them and Firaxis doesn't change.

Now, having said that, I restate that I don't know what Firaxis was and wasn't contracted to provide to Infogrames. Maybe it was stated in section C, paragraph 3, clause 6 that Firaxis was required to provide Infogrames with 75,000 slaves and a work permit for each country the LE might get shipped to. Maybe that's the reason that the LE was supposed to be limited to the US only.

But, if that's the case, it's Infogrames' responsibility to make sure that Firaxis lives up to its obligations. Firaxis has no obligation to the consumer - they never made a transaction with them - and therefore Infogrames is required to either start shipping the slaves themselves (and to make good from Firaxis separately) or to make sure that people don't buy the game assuming that they're going to get a free slave with every box.

Sure, I got ripped off. Sure, I'm annoyed about it. But I'm not going to blame someone who didn't promise me, and doesn't owe me, anything.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Even money says BigNick is a Firaxis employee...

I wish. Wrong continent, wrong industry. I'm working for a financial regulator.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by BigNick
Sure, I got ripped off. Sure, I'm annoyed about it. But I'm not going to blame someone who didn't promise me, and doesn't owe me, anything.

You seem to imply I do not understand your legal argument.

Granted, you may be right from a strictly legal viewpoint.

However, I didn´t argue legalities; I argued commonsense.

Now, what commonsense (and life experience) tell me is this:

Firaxis knew perfectly well, imho, what the LE would or would not contain. And they agreed with Infogrames all the way about deceiving the customers. There was absolutely no disagreement between Firaxis and Infogrames. They even agreed beforehand on the fact that Infogrames does not care about your opinion, and that Firaxis would blame Infogrames. It´s that simple.

[klesh]

Do these companies want to make money out of making civ3?
yes

Do these companies already have your money?
yes

Do these companies want to keep us as returning customers for futher civ products?
yes

Would they do anything that would piss off a good amount of their customerbase?
depends

On what?, you say... which brings us to our last question of the day. Pay attention here...

Will the crappy civ3LE (really) keep any of you from ever purchasing a civ item from these companies again...civ4, 5 and all the add-ons they'll incoporate into them?
no way, we are all civ junkies, and it is time we all admit it

I got the LE. It sucks. It is about 1/3 of what I would've thought an LE coulda been. Are they gonna get me for civ4? Sure.

-FMK.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


You seem to imply I do not understand your legal argument.

I'm not actually making a legal argument. Sorry. I'm not a lawyer. YMMV. If I was trying to argue legally I'd say that under the Fair Trading Act (1987) the responsibility would lie directly with the shop from which I bought the product.

However, I didn´t argue legalities; I argued commonsense.

I'm trying to argue from something akin to personal experience. I find that common sense is involved, though, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. When I was working in IT a couple of years ago (no, Cybergnu, not in games), I was working on a project to provide a timesheeting system to a client.

We had designed the system, we had everything prepared to move into the final stages, when we discovered that the client had been promised not the Oracle-compatible solution we had designed, but a system that would integrate into the client's existing Lotus Notes system.

As the company responsible for the solution, we could not then turn around to the group who had designed the Oracle interface and tell them that their product was of no use after all and that our balls-up should now oblige them to provide us with something they were not contracted for and had no responsibility over. We still had to pay them the same amount of money for delivering to specifications. Whether that fit with what we needed to deliver or not. If we wanted something we hadn't contracted for, we'd need to write a new contract.

Now, what commonsense (and life experience) tell me is this:

Firaxis knew perfectly well, imho, what the LE would or would not contain. And they agreed with Infogrames all the way about deceiving the customers. There was absolutely no disagreement between Firaxis and Infogrames. They even agreed beforehand on the fact that Infogrames does not care about your opinion, and that Firaxis would blame Infogrames. It´s that simple.

I believe that's idiocy. Pure and simple. You are assuming all parties involved are willing to act illegally in order to gain a result that is, at best, marginal.

Let me propose another theory:
- Infogrames believes that Civ3 will have a 'cult' base of players who will pay a little extra for a few goodies. Keep in mind that the manufacturer's 'cut' of the extra $10 will only work out to about $2-3 - if that - after distribution and retail margin. Probably only barely enough to cover the extra production costs.
- Infogrames talks to Firaxis about putting out an LE and asks for bits and pieces that are by-products of the game's design.
- Firaxis suggests a few things they might be able to give Infogrames for them to assemble, publish and include. Probably nothing more is said on this, as it's just a distraction from the main point of getting the game out the door.
- Infogrames assumes that everything Firaxis suggested will be delivered, and some marketing paeon jumps the gun by issuing press releases and designing the insert for the back of the tin.
- Firaxis, in a rush to get the product out the door on time, puts all available resources into the game, and when Infogrames asks for the extras, burns some stuff they have lying around onto a CD and drops it in a courier bag.
- Infogrames doesn't do as much transformation of the stuff as one assumes a publisher might (rejigging the tech tree, for instance) and throws that into the tin.

I'd say that it's likely that Firaxis wouldn't get a cent extra for the LE versions than for the SE, and more than likely there wouldn't have even been a formal agreement between them to produce one.

Having said that, Infogrames promised something that I don't think they've delivered, and what they have delivered isn't up to scratch, but I don't think you can sheet home that blame any further than that.

To suggest that those groups would try to collude as you've suggested to deliberately upset the group that are likely to be their strongest customer base is ludicrous.

{EDIT - Corrected some spelling and the year of passage of the FTA. Just to show that I care about the details. Isn't that nice of me?}

[habitualuser]

Regardless of who's really at fault, this game has Firaxis's name on it....

so in my view, Firaxis has become like every other money-grubbing (game) software company out there, and released an untested game just to meet the release date, and compared to other Firaxis games (or even 'pre-Firaxis' games, ie when they worked for Mircoprose) the contents of the LE are a joke.

Considering CivNet, Civ II, SMAC all came with a fairly nice tech tree as stanard fare... not to mention the stuff that came with Civil War series of games...

BigNick stated "Firaxis has no responsibility to live up to Infogrames' marketing claims". Wrong, there name is on it, they share in the responsibilty. If they really gave a damn, they wouldn't have allowed there name to be used....

Oh well, from now on, I'll just download Firaxis' game first and if they are worth it then i'll buy it, just like I do for almost every other game....

One other thing, if this didn't carry Firaxis' name, and was CTP3 or Civ:TNG (the Next Generation ) or some such, it wouldn't be getting '10's' from all the reviewers, it would be more like "Mostly a graphics upgrade on a classic, with some new ideas, that while good need to be worked out better...."

ps. What's Brian Reynolds' new company's name, ii'll still get his stuff 'site unseen'.

pps. CIV 3 Designed By -- Jeff Briggs, Soren Johnson, and Members of Firaxis Games..... No mention of Sid as being a member of Firaxis games, and only (as someone else had mentioned) the Original CIV Designer.... On a side note, Manager of Creative Services -- Steve Martin (yeah i know it's not the same one, but i couldn't help but think.... oh that's why.... )


Also did anyone make a good printable chart? Just wondering...

[BigNick]

Originally posted by habitualuser
ps. What's Brian Reynolds' new company's name, ii'll still get his stuff 'site unseen'.

"Big Huge Games". BHG. Don't know what they're working on.

Also did anyone make a good printable chart? Just wondering...

Yeah, there's one in the CivStats.zip file in the Files section. Don't know the name of the thread, though.