LE scandal - Firaxians, there has to be an explanation to 75,000 customers!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by BigNick
I believe that's idiocy. Pure and simple. You are assuming all parties involved are willing to act illegally in order to gain a result that is, at best, marginal.

I am assuming nothing at all. If they did it for money or convenience doesn´t matter to me. I am not interested in their motives. They simply showed clearly and plainly they didn´t care; period. This is true for both Infogrames and Firaxis, but particularly Firaxis.

And blaming Infogrames is getting old; the distributor is a glorified shopkeeper. The responsibility for the product lies with the producer , as the name implies. If Firaxis desperately wanted to make sure the LE was high quality, they could. But they couldn´t care less.

[Kautilya]

Didn't Dan Magha make an announcement about the LE in these forums? Anyway I am pretty sure Firaxis knew about the LE.

BTW on reading the 6000+ views figure for this read, I realized we may have alerted hundreds of people about the crappiness of LE with this thead alone costing Firaxis thousands of dollars in LE sales.

[TCO]

Big Nick,

Nice post. Seriously.

I would only add that this situation is comparable but has some additional nuances compared to the timesheet story.

Firaxis and Sid are creative people who's name and reputations are bound up with the product. They are more than faceless contractors.

I would also add that when you have a team working to get a project done, it is useful to look out for obvious pitfalls. (beyond word for word contractual obligations.) (I've worked in construction with lots of contractors.) Head down/butt up delivery to specs (with neck firmly lodged in sand) is a recipe for disaster and litigation...

I think there is a reasonable chance that there was some sort of checkoff for final release that sent the outline of what the LE would be through Firaxis for a signature before release...

[LaRusso]

it is kind of sad that this thread attracted just couple of dan's posts and did not make anyone in firaxis sit and write a short explanation. not because i started the thread but because it really shows their carelesness

[scientist]

I have to disagree with Big Nick's legal take on this issue. Firaxis has a reputation to uphold. Legally they might not be liable (and what's involved anyway? Answer: a few bucks. My guess is that eventually we'll be told that those exciting videos (ha ha) on the second cd constitute the designer notes (ha ha ha). Legally fine

Like Field Marshall Klesh. I'm a Civ Junkie that will buy Sid Meier's stuff site unseen. Still, I was hesitant to buy the LE because I expected it to be a ripoff. Being proved right I'm now going to hesitate on upgrading to a "premium product" from Sid. When it comes time for me to consider the inevitable add-on, I'll definitely hesitate. I never bought the add-ons for Civ II or SMAC, though I've spent thousands of hours playing them.

Now, because I've been milked for $10 bucks, I'm definitely going to consider my purchases more carefully. Will I buy the future add-on? Probably, but bad reviews might make me wait until it gets to the bargain bin, as before I would have bought it immediately.

I can't really get too pissed off at the people at the software store that sold me this game. It's like getting mad at the grocery check out girl because your cheerios have rat's tail in them.

I would just really like some official explanation on why this LE was such a rip-off. And I'm going to keep complaining, publically, until I get it. I'm pissed off. It's an emotional thing. The a-holes ripped me off and first I was pleasant about it but now I would just like someone at these companies to do me the courtesy of at least explaining why I shouldn't consider them as jerks who exploited my love of their product for a quick $10 bucks.

I mean c'mon, I don't care that much if they jerk me around, but for an extra ten bucks at least give me a somewhat decent twist to the handjob.

Sorry if the vulgarity offends, but this situation with the LE just burns me up when I think about it.

[Earthling7]

Originally posted by BigNick
I'm not actually making a legal argument. Sorry. I'm not a lawyer. YMMV. If I was trying to argue legally I'd say that under the Fair Trading Act (1987) the responsibility would lie directly with the shop from which I bought the product.

The shop didn't promise the designer notes, Infogrames/Firaxis did.

[Earthling7]

Originally posted by BigNick
"Big Huge Games". BHG. Don't know what they're working on.

They're working on an RTS, AFAIK.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Earthling7


The shop didn't promise the designer notes, Infogrames/Firaxis did.

Well...you bought the game from the shop. Firaxis/Infogrames are just suppliers. It would be the same if you bought bad food at a supermarket. You go after the store, not the manufacturer.

[scientist]

Wow! I'm impressed. My local software store has made a move in the Great LE Scandal. They have affixed a sticker to the tin that says :

"This box contains:
Videos with tips and tricks and other exclusive material"

Well I'm impressed. Now they can claim that they are not deceiving anyone!

So I am posting an official note to my post:

"Don't buy the Limited Edition of Civ III. It's a rip-off!"

Now all parties concerned are legally covered.

[BigNick]

Originally posted by Earthling7


The shop didn't promise the designer notes, Infogrames/Firaxis did.

Actually, because the only ad I've seen (and made my purcasing decision based on) didn't mention the LE, IIRC it's up to the shop to make sure that the product fulfils the promises made on its packaging.

If I recall the unit of Consumer Protection I did as part of my degree, if someone took it before a Small Claims Tribunal, the adjudicator could actually issue a binding order on EB to provide a copy of the Designer Notes, but would be far more likely to oblige them to offer a refund for the product. In other words, you'd take a day off work, pay $20 for the tribunal time, and hold out hope of saving $10 by getting a refund and buying the SE.

Now, of course, I'm not a trained lawyer and free legal advice isn't worth the money, but you get the idea.

Let's just say that I have a bad taste for Infogrames and computer game premia.

[scientist]

You hit the nail on the head, Big Nick.

Legally, the parties involved can slip out of this. From a business stand point, however, it probably is a bad idea to alienate your most loyal customers.

And finally, from an ethical standpoint, it stinks to promise something and not deliver it.

Infogrames stinks. I'm still making up my mind about Firaxis. Honestly, it would be very easy for them (Firaxis, and even Infogrames) to win me back, but they seem to not give a damn. Too bad for all of us. It hurts to see a beautiful thing sullied with such callow greed and indifference.

[LaRusso]

Does anyone know Infogrames email contact? I tried to look for it at their sites but could not find. After this German thingie, I simply won't let it go. Can anyone help me? MarkG, you know their email addy?

[LaRusso]

Okay, found their dodgy contacts and sent this;

Dear Mrs. Bushkin,

On behalf of a number of dissatisfied customers, I would like to draw your attention to the following case of false advertising and serious customer misleading your company committed in the recent months.

Thousands of Civilization fans bought Civ3 Limited Edition, not only to admire its tin box of bearable quality, but much more because it was advertised to include 'Designer's Notes by Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs'. Some of us undertook additional effort to have the game delivered overseas. Those boxes arrived quite some time ago, but none of us could find the advertised Notes.

Since there has been quite a disturbance on Civ3 fan forums regarding this issue, I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know what Infogrames plans to do to remedy this situation and prevent further damage to its reputation among its customers.


Sorry guys, I am not a native speaker. We'll see if they are as quick to jump to this as they were regarding German friggin' translation....

[Bereta_Eder]

wow!. This thread has grown alright!!!!!


May you emerge victorious LaRusso!


have they even written the designer's notes?

I think not.

BTW by designer's notes you mean like the ones that were in the last pages of the Civ 2 manual right?

[LaRusso]

hahah paiktis, i got the following autroreply from mrs nancy

"I will be out of the office Friday, November 16th through Tuesday,
November
20th. If this is an urgent press matter, please contact Kris Sharbaugh
(212-726-4264; ksharbaugh@us.infogrames.com) or Charlotte Ostor at the
GCI
Group (212-537-8006).
If this is a technical support matter, please call 425-951-7150 or
e-mail
www.ina-support.com."

Please note that it is November 26th today and she still have not turned off autoreply arrrrgh! Makes you wonder just HOW incompetent they are.....

By designer's notes I want to see stuff that we extract painstakingly from Soren et alia here at the game boards. Like how the game works, why was something designed this or that way and some tips....that kinda stuff

[klesh]

I just wanted to let people who weren't fortunate enough to buy the LE what they were missing by these so called 'designer's notes'...

Dear World Ruler,

It's hard to believe that ten years have passed since the original Civilization was born. Though we knew the team had created something special, no one anticipated the impact that Civilization and Civilization II would have. Countless hours would pass as gamers across the world would again and again try to create the ultimate Civilization with just one more turn...

Even today, our team at FIRAXIS regularly hears from fans who have conqured new heightsand built even more incredible empires. Both the original Civilization and CivilizationII were grounded in the principles that guided the creation of CivilizationIII.

--FUN-- --INTERESTING DECISIONS-- --ACCESSIBLE DESIGN-

We're pleased to say that everyone at FIRAXIS has remained commited to these guiding principlesand created a new and even more compelling experience with CivilizationIII. You'll immediately notice that CivIII wonderfully detailed and beautiful graphics and a more streamlined interface. Many of the most significant innovations will be discovered when you journey through the gam, recognizing the many gameplay elements that have made the previous versions of Civilization so enjoyable and revealing the new and exciting features we've added to make CivIII the most fun Civ ever. With the introduction of new gameplay concepts such as Culture, we hope you will enjoy the challenge of exploring some of the many new ways to create the ultimate empire and strive to stand the test of time.

We are grateful to the many Civ fans who have shared their thoughts with us over the years... you have helped us make CivilizationIII the ultimate Civ experience.

On behalf of the entire team at FIRAXIS Games, we hope that you enjoy this legendary game that is so close to our hearts. Thank you for joining us in this, the dawn of a new Civilization.

Sincerely,

Sid Meier, Chairman and Director of Creative Development,
FIRAXIS Games

Jeff Briggs, President & CEO, FIRAXIS Games

Gee, that took me all of two minutes to type out for you guys.
Hope it was worth all the extra cash I spent.


-FMK.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
I just wanted to let people who weren't fortunate enough to buy the LE what they were missing by these so called 'designer's notes'...



Gee, that took me all of two minutes to type out for you guys.
Hope it was worth all the extra cash I spent.


-FMK.

Um, FMK, I also got that pathetic letter (my gf still laughs at me because of the opening line ) but that is NOT a designer's note, even us non-native speakers know the difference

[klesh]

Originally posted by LaRusso


Um, FMK, I also got that pathetic letter (my gf still laughs at me because of the opening line ) but that is NOT a designer's note, even us non-native speakers know the difference

That's odd, you would think they'd try to pull a fast one over on you non-native speakers while giving us Americans the real deal.


BTW, don't try to translate this into your native language, ok? You may get the Infogrames hit squad after you.



-FMK.

[yin26]

LaRusso got two replies, in fact, and asked me to pass them on:

THEIR REPLY NO !
Thank you for your e-mail and for bringing this matter to our attention. I have forwarded your e-mail on to the appropriate people within our company and assure you that they will look into this immediately. I will keep your e-mail address so that we can contact you when we have an answer for you.

Sincerely,
Nancy Bushkin
Vp, Corporate Communications

THEIR REPLY NO2
We have looked into your complaint and have tracked down the following information: While we are not aware of the advertising you mention, we did list the contents of the Limited Edition on certain online sites prior to the launch of the product. That listing indicated that there would be a note from the game's designers included in the product. To our knowledge, every copy of the Limited Edition included a one-page letter from Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs. If you -- or any of the other customers you mention -- did not receive this letter in your Limited Edition packages, please let me know and we will make certain that copies are sent out immediately.

I hope this answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please let me know. Again, thank you for your interest in and support of the Civilization franchise.

Sincerely,
Nancy Bushkin
VP, Corporate Communications


MY REPLY TO EVIL INFOGRAMES
Dear Mrs. Bushkin,
I am rather astonished that the Infogrames is not aware of the advertisement, since it has been printed at the back of the Limited Edition tin box. Also, the advertising specified "designers' notes"(plural) and not a "designer's note" or "designers' note". Moreover, since the Infogrames is well aware of the meaning of certain words in the gaming business, it surely does know that 'designers' notes' represent much more than a supposedly personal note from Sid Mayer and Jeff Briggs. Designers' notes are usually a rather thorough account of the makers on mechanics, making and working of the game that enables fans to get that extra info they would otherwise have to dig for themselves. Most of the Civ3 fans bought Limited Edition precisely because of that and they are rather disappointed at your the way Infogrames treatment. Since there has been quite a discussion about that on fan forums, I suggest that your company sends official explanation (but a real one) and/or apology to Apolyton, biggest Civ3 fan site online. You may send your communication
to markg@apolyton.net

[Earthling7]

SHOCKING!!!

My LE Tin arrived today, and even if it isn't quite as crappy as many have stated, it is far from impressive.

I promised to post a picture of the content, and will honour that tomorrow.

...and Infogrames really expect people to believe that a little letter about how amazingly fast time has flown can qualify as designer notes?

[scientist]

Yin,

Thanks so much for actually contacting Infogrames. You are a braver man than I am. After reading their reply, I have actually become physically unwell.

There are so many things that bother me about Infogrames:

1)The LE ripoff

2)Their heavy-handed treatment of the German translation effort by fans.

3)Their and Prima Publishing going after Hurricane online strategy guide, especially when Prima's effort was so pathetic.

All three of these episodes are pointing to a publisher that has no appreciation nor understanding of the community they are supposed to be serving.

There are obviously some real idiots at Infogrames, who are oblivious to the fact that they are destroying a great franchise through their heavy-handed stupidity.

Perhaps the time for quiet carping on the message boards is over. Maybe we should get at these guys where they hurt. They seem to really love their lawyers. Maybe we should keep their lawyers busy and take some action. A class action on behalf of 75,000 LE victims could definitely hurt them. I just think it is time to stop playng nice with these idiots.

What do you think? That e-mail reply you received really show me that these morons just don't get it .

P.S. CivIII is a great game. The current implementation is buggy but I wouldn't be spending so many hours playing it if I didn't love it. It's all this crap that Infogrames is pulling that infuriates me.

[Q Classic]

i say we storm infogrames headquarters. with pitchforks.

be sure to wear red, dye hair black, and have the mayor flee in panic.

[yin26]

scientist: I just want to clarify that it was LaRusso who sent the mail and got the reply. I only passed it on for him. HE is the brave man.

I have to agree that this is a sick display from both Firaxis and Infogrames. As I've said before, I'm only haging around now to see if this black comedy could possibly get any worse...sad.

[Alexander's Horse]

I actually bought the LE version out of morbid curiosity because of this controversy

I was pleased to find the lid of the tin I got is warped so it won't close properly

[Jack_www]

The people at Infogrames have to be idiots. They seem to have no clue on how to conduct public realtions, and they have no clue on what has been said on this forum and other civ related firums. I am glad I never got the LE. I actually thought about getting because they said it had extra scenarios in it, but I decided in the end it was not worth the money, how right I was.
I say everyone here send firaxis and infograms letters and tell them exactly how we all feel about the crap they are doning to people.

[scientist]

I should have read your post more carefully. I maintain my compliments to you,Yin, for posting, and I have double compliments to LaRusso.

Do you think it would help if more people complained?(duh, of course it would.)

So here's my effort:


Dear Infogrames:

I purchased Sid Meier's Civilization III Limited Edition several weeks ago. I enjoy the game greatly. The Civilization series is a great gaming tradition and the latest installment shows great promise.

I was, however, very disappointed that the Limited Editon did not contain the "Designer's [sic] Notes from Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs", as promised on the back of the tin box. I paid a premium of $10 dollars for the Limited Edition with the sole purpose being those designers' notes. I may also note that the "Fold-Out Tech Tree" was a very disappointingly poorly produced document as well.

There has been considerable online discussion on this matter ( http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...825&perpage=30 ), but there has been no word from your company nor from Firaxis concerning this failure on your company's part to provide the promised materials. I have posted a copy of my letter to you in this aforementioned forum, so that others may benefit from your quick and thoughtful response to our correspondence.

I look forward to your correction of this unfortunate situation.

Sincerely,

Michel Evanchik

P.S. On a personal note, I'm sorry to subject you to such a silly exchange, but your company has screwed up so badly on this one that I'm sure you will want to take some action, if for no other reason than out of some sense of corporate pride in having possession of such a venerable gaming franchise. The fact that Infogrames is also alienating thousands of paying customers may also prompt you to take some ameliorative action on this matter.


I'll post the reply when and if I get it.

[MustPost]

I was pleased to find the lid of the tin I got is warped so it won't close properly

All the ones in the store I went to had warped covers.
I bought one, it was warped but it still closed.

[Alexander's Horse]

I kept it anyway as a piece of Schlock. The warped lid makes me laugh. I don't know how they can defend this kind of shoddy production.

[MarkG]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=36335