Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[Rogan Josh]

I voted other. I think the British Empire had the most influence and most military might at its peak. I have no idea why it wasn't on the list.

China comes a close 2nd and the Romans in 3rd.

[YefeiPi]

If our influence is so small, then why you are in China still using communism as form of goverment?
How can it happens that so old and wise China once was penatrated by our socialist ideas and become a communist country?

First of all, communism is not your people's ideas. It originated from Germany and you guys copied it. Also, communism is exactly the reason why China was not doing well in the past decades, that's the biggest mistake China made. I guess the old and the wise makes occasional mistakes as well

[Blaupanzer]

Power = the ability to influence others to serve your interests. On this basis, the US today is the most powerful state that ever existed economically. (For good or ill, US corporations run the world.) If the real world were a Civ III game, the US would win a cultural victory hands down. (Again, a "culture" of blue jeans, rap music, and fast food may not be the most admirable of them all but liberated Afghans immediately ask about blue jeans and Coca Cola. May be contemptible to some, but it is powerful to the point of complete dominance.) And militarily, the presence of any weapons on a scale to enable the complete destruction of all human achievement in less than an hour belongs to only two states, the US and Russia. (An evil kind of power really, but very real.)

The question didn't ask who was the most dominant in their time, or who was the longest lasting; it asked who was the most powerful.

Worth noting that the US has the longest-lasting continuous political system on the planet today.

Also worth noting that if power were to equal spiritual influence that the Muslims would win hands down in terms of rapid spread and lasting effect. In that area, no European or European-born power since Rome adopted Christianity has had any influence at all.

[Oerdin]

I voted for other; the most dominant power visa vi the other great powers was 18th- early 20th century Great Britain. One out of every five people were British subjects and the empire controled a full quarter of the earth's land area. Add that on top of Britain's HUGE lead in economic, scientific, military, and social situations and you see why Britain (nee England) was histories greatest power.

[Oerdin]

I voted for other; the most dominant power visa vi the other great powers was 18th- early 20th century Great Britain. One out of every five people were British subjects and the empire controled a full quarter of the earth's land area. Add that on top of Britain's HUGE lead in economic, scientific, military, and social situations and you see why Britain (nee England) was history's greatest power.

[YefeiPi]

U.S and England are both pretty powerful, but England's peak was not long at all and declined and U.S is yet to stand the test of time.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36


Um... yea, maybe they criticise it bcos USA exactly fails on those points? Yes no culture is immune to outside influences, everyone knows that. R u trying to say every culture is the same? If not, theres surely differences and degrees of differences between cultures. USA fails exactly on this.

Yes USA can influence the world more than other civs in the past. But I dont think that is how u would decide whether it's the most powerful in history. .

I don't see how the U.S.A fails, as you put it; countries as diverse as Great Britain (almost the 51st state under Thatcher and Major), Israel, South Korea, Australia, Colombia and Morocco want to be its friend, derive much of their culture from it, economic advantage from relations with it, ally with it in times of war...it's difficult to see how much more the U.S.A could do to succeed in terms of culture and power. If it chose, the globe could become a glowing irradiated uninhabitable ball. Not bad going for a country that people say has had a hard time defeating Iraq and Afghanistan. The point in military terms being of course, that the U.S.A. cannot afford to act like the Romans avenging the exploits of Boudicca; she didn't have to worry about Senate oversight committees, C.N.N. live broadcasts and public opinion. I see the U.S.A. and most cultures today as being like T'ang China in many respects; consider how faiths as different as Nestorianism, Islam, Buddhism and Mazdaism all penetrated T'ang China, gained converts, and yet ultimately China remained culturally China.
Countries such as Germany (with its large Gastarbeiter population) and the U.S.A. and France and Australia are all absorbing peoples and ideas and influences from around the world, but still without being fundamentally altered. Of course there are great similarities between cultures, but even countries as similar as the U.S.A. and Great Britain and Australia still remain fundamentally different.

[MrNett]

I voted for the British Empire, because of the following reasons:

(1) The defacto world language is english
(2) No other civilization had so much people and land mass under its control (more than 1/4 of the world!!)
(3) The industrialization started at UK; one can say that the British Empire lead the world from middle ages to modern times
(think about steam engine or railroads!).
(4) The British culture still have a great influence today (music for example)
(5) Not every big corporation is from USA! Many global companies come from europe, especially from UK (for example Vodafone!).

Sure, the Romans were also a very very powerful civ, but in my opinion their influence was restricted only to Europe (at the "same" time there were other great cultures in other parts of the world, e.g. like the Egypts or the Chinese...).

And the USA are "only" a mixture of British, Irish, German, Italian, African, Asian and many other people... though they now are of course the most powerful civ of the world.

Well, that is my opinion!

[Serb]

Originally posted by YefeiPi


First of all, communism is not your people's ideas. It originated from Germany and you guys copied it. Also, communism is exactly the reason why China was not doing well in the past decades, that's the biggest mistake China made. I guess the old and the wise makes occasional mistakes as well

No, Communism is not originated From Germany, it's originated from ancient Greece. Even in that times people dreamed about such utopia society. Marx and Engels prove teoreticaly that such society is possible in an industrial age. But their work was only begining- the basis wich was used by us. We advanced teoretical works to that stage when it can be used practicaly and then we used them. We are the nation who was establish this new form of human society. You may like communism or not (I am not) but you have to agree that it's the only political system invented by humans in last couples of centures and the Russia was first communist country in human history. We invented it, we try it, we dont like it anymore, now we are democracy -OK?
And BTW who told you that China was not doing well in the past decades? As for me they doing very well. They have huge economy growth, and they shoot down US spy planes quite well.

[IncreduloDriver]

I voted for the British Empire, because of the following reasons:

(1) The defacto world language is english

True enough. Why is English the de facto world language? Because *America* has the most powerful, dynamic economy in the world. English is a required language in many countries, including the one in which I live, China. I guaratee you that 1.2 billion Chinese people do not learn English because the Chinese government finds the British government enamoring. The internet's de facto language is English. Why? Because *America* invented the internet and because most internet users were American for the longest time. America, and not England, is responsible for the spread of the English language *by consent* rather than *by force.* (When it's forced upon a people, it doesn't stick around for very long, either.)

(2) No other civilization had so much people and land mass under its control (more than 1/4 of the world!!)

The lasting effect of British culture in many former colonies is negligible or superficial at best. India is a prime example. Since we're trying to determine the most powerful civilization culturally as well as politically, economically, and in force of arms, the large British population just doesn't hold water against those four factors.

(3) The industrialization started at UK; one can say that the British Empire lead the world from middle ages to modern times

Industrialization may have started in Europe, but America has certainly developed it the most. The world's highest GDP both overall and per capita among only 270 million people is more than proof enough. As for the Middle Ages (i.e., the time before industrialization), there are plenty of examples of civilizations that knocked the pants off of European countries (the Arabs, for instance).

4) The British culture still have a great influence today (music for example)

Sure, British music rocks--but I'd hardly call the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Oasis a standard for determining the most powerful civ EVER.

(5) Not every big corporation is from USA! Many global companies come from europe, especially from UK (for example Vodafone!).

True--not every corporation is from the USA. But most of the largest ones are. The oldest ones are. Why? Because America has the best economy and standard of living on the planet. From where did the very concept of corporations originate? That's right, America (General Motors, in fact, was the first modern corporation). As for Vodafone, I've never heard of it. Must not be too big. But I'm sure you've heard of Motorola, McDonalds, Microsoft, KFC, Ford, General Motors, Intel... and the list goes on.

Politically, America is unquestionably the most powerful nation in the world. I doubt there is anybody on the planet who would doubt this. When America does something politically, the rest of the (civilized) world follows.

Economically, America is unmatched, both in GDP per capita and in total GDP. I also covered this above.

Culturally, America has contributed more to the world than any other civilization in history, save the Ancient Greeks. John Locke (a Limey) was the first person to recognize that governments exist to serve the people, but America was the first country in the world to enact such a system. When America tried it, Europe though they'd fail. Europe laughed at rule by the people. And now, look! The degree of democracy is now the standard of a righteous government. Nearly every European country is a democracy. Every country in America, save Cuba, is a democracy. Africa is partially democratic. Asia is democratizing. Why? Because America showed the world that a system of indivdual rights can work and works well. NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789. America is the pioneer of democracy. For the cultural impact on the world of that, alone, America should be considered the most powerful nation throughout history.
Aside from democracy, America has made huge contributions to the culture of the world, including what foods people eat, what clothes they wear, hairstyles, music, movies, etc., etc. Basically, if there is any concept specific to a modern, capitalist economy (fast food, pop music, labor unions, anti-trust laws), you can bet that it originated in America. Some of those things perhaps aren't the greatest, but they certainly have consumed the globe.

As far as military power is concerned, undoubtedly, America is number one. Relatively speaking, America has more military power than any other country throughout history. Alexander the Great could never destroy the world with a few pushes of a button. America can. Absolutely speaking, I'd pit America's army against any other army throughout history.

America is certainly the most powerful country EVER. It's true that America has taken influences from previous cultures--philosophy from the Greeks, law from the British and the Romans--but America has merged them all into a new culture, a culture which continues to spread throughout the globe to this day.

[ginzuishou]

And the USA are "only" a mixture of British, Irish, German, Italian, African, Asian and many other people... though they now are of course the most powerful civ of the world.

Yes, the US is a combination of many different peoples, but these peoples wouldn't call themselves German, Irish, African, etc., they would call themselves Americans. The precious nature of America, and indeed other nations like Canada and Australia is the ability to take in different peoples from all over the world, all of who create a new whole from their various parts and contributions.

Nothing is truly original anymore, everything's derived inspiration from another source of some type. Take art for example. Students of art start out under the influence of their professors and other artists that have come before them as well as their peers. As they grow and expand, they take in all kinds of influences from all sorts of sources and create something new and unique with their own personal twist and flavor. This is what America has done, culturally. They've borrowed aspects of many different cultures all over the world (mainly European of course) and have created something new and unique out of that material. American's certainly do have their own, organized culture.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by Serb


No, [communism] is not originated From Germany, it's originated from ancient Greece. Even in that times people dreamed about such utopia society. Marx and Engels prove teoreticaly that such society is possible in an industrial age. But their work was only begining- the basis wich was used by us. We advanced teoretical works to that stage when it can be used practicaly and then we used them. We are the nation who was establish this new form of human society. You may like communism or not (I am not) but you have to agree that it's the only political system invented by humans in last couples of centures and the Russia was first communist country in human history. We invented it, we try it, we dont like it anymore, now we are democracy -OK?
And BTW who told you that China was not doing well in the past decades? As for me they doing very well. They have huge economy grows, and they shoot down US spy planes quite well.

Communism, in any proper use of the word, originated in Germany by Marx and Engels. It was their work which enabled Russia, China, Korea, Laos, and Vietnam to become Communist countries. The Greeks' thoughts on the subject were unadvanced and primitive, as well as quite sparse. It would be a gross miscalculation to attribute communism to the Greeks, just as it would be wrong to attribute X-ray machines and genetic engineering to them, though they did invent medicine.

As for China, China's interpretation of communism was MUCH different from the Soviet interpretation, and this was what led to over a decade of tension between the two nations. China's emphasis was on the "Rural Proletariat" whereas the Soviets were led by a stricter interpretation of Marx.

Modern China can be called anything but communist. Since the death of Mao, Deng has liberalized the economy immensely, seeking a "Socialist market economy," i.e., a European- or American-style economy. Government propoganda quips aside (and believe me, there's plenty), The PRC does not seek new interpretations of Marxist and Leninist thought, but rather a distancing from it, what they call "Deng Xiaoping theory." This has been responsible for China's economic and political growth. As proof, I suggest you take a look at a 1979 World Almanac and a 2001 World Almanac and adjust China's GDP for inflation. You'll be pretty surprised by what you find.

[ginzuishou]

America is the pioneer of democracy.

Well, if you're willing to consider Fukuyama's "The End Of History?", then America has brought democracy into it's maturity. What more can Liberal Democracy do? I do agree with him, it's at it's ideological end. In America, liberty is pretty much had by all. There's equal rights and freedom for women, racial minorities, and people of all ages; the only real civil liberties area left to conquer is gay and lesbian rights. There's freedom to practice religions of all types, to pursue commercial interests, free speech, and the list goes on. Ancient Greece was the pioneer of Democracy, America is it's true successor (I hope)...

Once again, I'm rather skeptical to consider that any one nation can be considered all powerful throughout all of history when the dynamics of each time period merit different systems of evaluation. I think we can all agree that America is the most powerful nation of the 20th century but I think it's a regression to view history with only a 20th century lens. We should be looking at the 14th century with a 14th century and 20th century lens, for example.

If we where to break down a civ's "power" as follows:

cultural power
militaristic power
political power
ideological power
economic power
technological power

And apply this on it's own to different centuries, you would have different results. It would be good to find a comparative standard that is not present-day America. Obviously Ancient civ's can't compare with America's technological capacity nor it's ideological capacity (etc.) of today. America, along with many other countries of the world have the building blocks of history as their foundations; so that's why it's appropriate to examine different time periods individually and not use the present day super powers as universally perfect paradigms to judge all that has come before.

[Sun Zi 36]

"Countries such as Germany (with its large Gastarbeiter population) and the U.S.A. and France and Australia are all absorbing peoples and ideas and influences from around the world, but still without being fundamentally altered. Of course there are great similarities between cultures, but even countries as similar as the U.S.A. and Great Britain and Australia still remain fundamentally different."

This argument is completely missing the point. It is trying to analyse how culture influences nations. But the question is "Which civ is the most powerful". It's CIV, not country. A Civ consists of a group of people sharing common culture. What u should be considering is whether the group of people u are talking about has a distinct culture. To me US doesn't qualify bcos it does not even contain a group of people sharing common culture. If u use the term in a narrower sense meaning the majority of people in US who share common culture, then US still doesn't qualify bcos the culture of the majority in US is too common with the culture of the majority in countries such as New Zealand and England to be classified as different.

"Yes, the US is a combination of many different peoples, but these peoples wouldn't call themselves German, Irish, African, etc., they would call themselves Americans. The precious nature of America, and indeed other nations like Canada and Australia is the ability to take in different peoples from all over the world, all of who create a new whole from their various parts and contributions."

I agree with u that many people call themselves American. But i would like to let u know that many people dont. But anyway, whether they do or not is not very important to culture itself. As i said the question is about CIV, not nation.

"The question didn't ask who was the most dominant in their time, or who was the longest lasting; it asked who was the most powerful."

U r right. But u also missed something. It didn't just ask "who was the most powerful", it asked "who was the most powerful IN ALL HISTORY". When u see the words "IN ALL HISTORY", it is very logical to interpret the question by PUTTING YOUR ANALYSES IN THE CONTEXT OF HISTORY.
It is asking u to compare the relative power of each CIV in their respective times, not use an absolute scale and say Afghanistan is more powerful than the Roman Empire bcos it possessed more destructive weapons and can transmit aspects of culture through the media to the rest of the world.

[Pyrodrew]

Sun Zi - you have a very narrowminded opinion of the definition of culture.

[Serb]

. NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789. America is the pioneer of democracy. For the cultural impact on the world of that, alone, America should be considered the most powerful nation throughout history.

Unalienable individual rights -Wow how cool
Wasn't it ndividual rights for white guys only? May be it wasn't slavery in 1789 in USA? Or may be the slaves have the same rights that white guys have with only difference what slaves have right to be sold, to be executed or to be killed by they masters?
During next almost 200 years afro-americans fight for their rights and only in 20 century they win. Is it example of democracy which America gave to world? If you call THAT democracy- a democracy for part of population while another part of population don't have the same rights, then I call it fake democracy.

As far as military power is concerned, undoubtedly, America is number one. Relatively speaking, America has more military power than any other country throughout history. Alexander the Great could never destroy the world with a few pushes of a button. America can. Absolutely speaking, I'd pit America's army against any other army throughout history.

Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serios enemy. USA is lucky, because they allways was too far away from our Europe's showdowns. They allways seat on their continent and watch how we fight against each other (not bad stategy ). Americans are traders but not warriors. I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us. We are the nation of warriors but not traders. BTW may be you forgot that Russia have the same numbers of nukes and can easy destroy the world with a few pushes of a button.
USA do not have the SUPREME power, this nation is not the ruler of the world, becouse it's simple impossible. In all human history never exist such a race and never be. All great empires sooner or later collapse no on can achive a supreme power and become the ruler of the world. So let's live in peace and let's forget about our past hostilitys

[Panzer]

I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us.

I think if it would have come down to a full-scale nuclear war we all would have been dead or worse. There wouldn't be any winners, only losers and a nuclear winter.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by Serb


Unalienable individual rights -Wow how cool
Wasn't it ndividual rights for white guys only? May be it wasn't slavery in 1789 in USA? Or may be the slaves have the same rights that white guys have with only difference what slaves have right to be sold, to be executed or to be killed by they masters?
During next almost 200 years afro-americans fight for their rights and only in 20 century they win. Is it example of democracy which America gave to world? If you call THAT democracy- a democracy for part of population while another part of population don't have the same rights, then I call it fake democracy.

Your knowledge of American history comes from the back of a Siberian cereal box, so allow me to elighten you. It's true that blacks were enslaved in the southern United States in 1789. Indeed, it was European countries who initiated the unjust practice. It's true that blacks were denied their unalienable rights. Nevertheless, NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789 for ANYBODY. Not for white people, not for black people, not for gay people, not for Jews, not for old people, not for ANYBODY. The United States paid for slavery from 1860-1865 through the loss of hundreds of thousands of its young men and through the near disintegration of the Union. However, the belief in unalienable individual rights prevailed, and it's THAT belief that spearheaded the democratic movements throughout the rest of the world.

Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serios enemy. USA is lucky, because they allways was too far away from our Europe's showdowns. They allways seat on their continent and watch how we fight against each other (not bad stategy ). Americans are traders but not warriors. I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us. We are the nation of warriors but not traders.

Ad... what's that Latin word again? Oh yes, hominem.

(Ahem, ten year Soviet invasion of puny, backward Afghanistan)

BTW may be you forgot that Russia have the same numbers of nukes and can easy destroy the world with a few pushes of a button.

Glad to see we agree on the point I made, which is that a modern army beats a senior one.

USA do not have the SUPREME power, this nation is not the ruler of the world, becouse it's simple impossible. In all human history never exist such a race and never be. All great empires sooner or later collapse no on can achive a supreme power and become the ruler of the world. So let's live in peace and let's forget about our past hostilitys

Okay, I'll concede that the United States is not an omnipotent god. As far as cultural power is concerned, however, the US certainly beats the pants off of every other civilization in the history of the world, for reasons I've mentioned in my previous posts.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver

Your knowledge of American history comes from the back of a Siberian cereal box, so allow me to elighten you. It's true that blacks were enslaved in the southern United States in 1789. Indeed, it was European countries who initiated the unjust practice. It's true that blacks were denied their unalienable rights. Nevertheless, NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789 for ANYBODY. Not for white people, not for black people, not for gay people, not for Jews, not for old people, not for ANYBODY.

[/b]
Your knowledge of European history comes from the back of a Chinese match box, so allow ME to enlighten YOU.
The French Constituante (Parliament) adopted the French constitution and the Declaration of (unalienable) civil rights during the period 1789-1791, so US were hardly the only ones. Also, at the same time the slavery was abolished in French colonies (raising great concern of the US Congress btw, that was afraid of black rebellions in America).

The United States paid for slavery from 1860-1865 through the loss of hundreds of thousands of its young men and through the near disintegration of the Union.

Sacrifices one makes to achieve something are hardly indicative of the cultural dominance. Russians or Chinese, for example, have suffered much greater human losses than, say, Swiss or Belgians during their surge for freedom, but the results are, obviously, hardly proportionate to the sacrifices suffered.

However, the belief in unalienable individual rights prevailed, and it's THAT belief that spearheaded the democratic movements throughout the rest of the world.

You ARE aware of the fact that by 1860 there was no slavery in British or French colonies, aren't you?

Ad... what's that Latin word again? Oh yes, hominem.

Uhm... I advice checking your pocket Latin dictionary again, because the Serb's reply you are quoting, while perhaps a bit fallacious, is hardly an ad hominem attack. Quite contrary to your "cereal" remark, btw.

Okay, I'll concede that the United States is not an omnipotent god. As far as cultural power is concerned, however, the US certainly beats the pants off of every other civilization in the history of the world, for reasons I've mentioned in my previous posts.

Well, it is disputable, to say the least. The fundamental ideas of Greek (philosophy) and Roman (law) civilisations still form basis of the Western society. Yes, US probably made one of the more spectacular uses of these ideals, but these ideas were hardly invented in 1789.

[Zealot]

Since the question is "which civ WAS the most powerful in all history" I had to vote for the Romans.
What they conquered for the time is an absolutely huge amount of territory! And they were able to implant their culture on those conquered territories for centuries!

But speaking of nowadays, the USA (along with their British allies) are the most powerful nation on Earth.

[genghisvick]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver

True enough. Why is English the de facto world language? Because *America* has the most powerful, dynamic economy in the world. English is a required language in many countries, including the one in which I live, China. I guaratee you that 1.2 billion Chinese people do not learn English because the Chinese government finds the British government enamoring. The internet's de facto language is English. Why? Because *America* invented the internet and because most internet users were American for the longest time. America, and not England, is responsible for the spread of the English language *by consent* rather than *by force.* (When it's forced upon a people, it doesn't stick around for very long, either.)


The lasting effect of British culture in many former colonies is negligible or superficial at best. India is a prime example. Since we're trying to determine the most powerful civilization culturally as well as politically, economically, and in force of arms, the large British population just doesn't hold water against those four factors.


Industrialization may have started in Europe, but America has certainly developed it the most. The world's highest GDP both overall and per capita among only 270 million people is more than proof enough. As for the Middle Ages (i.e., the time before industrialization), there are plenty of examples of civilizations that knocked the pants off of European countries (the Arabs, for instance).


Sure, British music rocks--but I'd hardly call the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Oasis a standard for determining the most powerful civ EVER.


True--not every corporation is from the USA. But most of the largest ones are. The oldest ones are. Why? Because America has the best economy and standard of living on the planet. From where did the very concept of corporations originate? That's right, America (General Motors, in fact, was the first modern corporation). As for Vodafone, I've never heard of it. Must not be too big. But I'm sure you've heard of Motorola, McDonalds, Microsoft, KFC, Ford, General Motors, Intel... and the list goes on.

Politically, America is unquestionably the most powerful nation in the world. I doubt there is anybody on the planet who would doubt this. When America does something politically, the rest of the (civilized) world follows.

Economically, America is unmatched, both in GDP per capita and in total GDP. I also covered this above.

Culturally, America has contributed more to the world than any other civilization in history, save the Ancient Greeks. John Locke (a Limey) was the first person to recognize that governments exist to serve the people, but America was the first country in the world to enact such a system. When America tried it, Europe though they'd fail. Europe laughed at rule by the people. And now, look! The degree of democracy is now the standard of a righteous government. Nearly every European country is a democracy. Every country in America, save Cuba, is a democracy. Africa is partially democratic. Asia is democratizing. Why? Because America showed the world that a system of indivdual rights can work and works well. NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789. America is the pioneer of democracy. For the cultural impact on the world of that, alone, America should be considered the most powerful nation throughout history.
Aside from democracy, America has made huge contributions to the culture of the world, including what foods people eat, what clothes they wear, hairstyles, music, movies, etc., etc. Basically, if there is any concept specific to a modern, capitalist economy (fast food, pop music, labor unions, anti-trust laws), you can bet that it originated in America. Some of those things perhaps aren't the greatest, but they certainly have consumed the globe.

As far as military power is concerned, undoubtedly, America is number one. Relatively speaking, America has more military power than any other country throughout history. Alexander the Great could never destroy the world with a few pushes of a button. America can. Absolutely speaking, I'd pit America's army against any other army throughout history.

America is certainly the most powerful country EVER. It's true that America has taken influences from previous cultures--philosophy from the Greeks, law from the British and the Romans--but America has merged them all into a new culture, a culture which continues to spread throughout the globe to this day.

Great post man! I agree 100% with you

[pithorr]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver
Sure, British music rocks--but I'd hardly call the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Oasis a standard for determining the most powerful civ EVER.

OASIS???!!!
Have you ever heard BLACK SABBATH?

[YefeiPi]

And BTW who told you that China was not doing well in the past decades? As for me they doing very well. They have huge economy growth, and they shoot down US spy planes quite well.

Where did you get the idea that China shoots down U.S spy plane quite well. I don't want to bring the issue up again, but why do you think China downed U.S spy plane and not the other way around?

Still, Russia seem to be better at sinking its own submarine.

[YefeiPi]

Everyone here seems to favor Romans simply because it conquered a lot of land. I mean Roman Empire declined very quickly and while it existed, it just conquered lands and little of anything else. I feel the Greece is better than Rome in terms of overall culture, science development and even then, it is still not the best civ ever.

Another note on America, no matter how hard it tries to differentiate, its root is still British and even though it is the most powerful militaristic and economic country in the world at this particular moment of time, I do not believe it is the best civ ever.

I believe it is very hard and near impossible to define the most powerful civ because no one have a thorough knowledge of every civ. For example, a lot of westerners knows next to nothing about oriental civs, and vise versa. Also, everyone have their own bias and generally tend to favor their own civ as being the best. Since this forum is mainly visited by people on the western hemisphere of the world, therefore the poll and post comments tend to lean on the western civs. This thread is highly debatable and I don't think there will be a conclusive result.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Serb
Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serious enemy. USA is lucky, because they always was too far away from our Europe's showdowns.

You asked so I will give you a brief synopsis of Wars the U.S. has fought in; I will leave out the smaller actions such as the American invasion of Libya in 1804, the dozens of U.S. "actions" in Latin America (of which the invasion of Panama in 1989 was only the latest), and the Philippines insurrection.

1776-1781 The American war of Independence which pitted a rage-tag group of colonials against the most powerful military machine on earth. In the end the Americans (and later their French allies) wore the British down until Parliament decided it just wasn't worth the effort to keep fighting.

War of 1812: Another war between the U.S. and Great Britain; this one was largely a draw and is really just a footnote in the Napoleonic wars. Still the over welling American victory in New Orleans (British killed/wounded/captured = 4000, Americans had 32 wounded and none killed) caused many Americans to believe they had actually won the war.

The Mexican-American war (1845): This was an total American Victory. The war started when Mexican soldiers killed several American soldiers in a disputed border region in Texas; it ended after the U.S. invaded and utterly defeated all Mexican military forces. Humiliated, Mexico was forced to seed half of it's territory to the U.S. including most of what is now the American southwest.

The U.S. Civil war (1861-1865): This was the worlds first truly modern war. It had foreshadowed the what would happen in Europe in 1914-1918. The war saw trench warfare, navel battles between Iron clads, the first mass use of armies with repeating rifles, and the idea of defeating your enemy by destroying his industrial base.

The Spanish-American War (1898): One of the shortest wars in history up to that time. In four months the U.S. invaded and subjugated all of Spain's over seas territories (Cuba, the Philippines, Porto Rico, Guam, Midway island, & a few other islands) and sink two Spanish fleets. At the battle of Manila Bay, upon see the on coming American Navy, the Spanish Admiral in charge ordered his ships into shallow water so that the men might have a chance to swim to shore after their ships were sunk.

WWI (1914-1918)- America joined the allies late in the war but without American financing and war material the allies would have lost long before the U.S. declared war in 1918. It was also wave after wave of fresh American soldiers which enabled the allies to stop the Germans from taking Paris in 1918 and defeat Imperial Germany.

WW2 (1939-1945)- America didn't join in until the end of 1941 but never the less America was THE big power which broke the axis. Everyone knows enough about this one so we'll leave it alone.

Korea (1951-53 [I think])- Not officially a war but a "Police Action". It began when the communist north invaded the capitalist south and nearly defeated them. The U.S. then became involved in a big way and promptly chased the communists all the way to the Chinese border. At that point the red Chinese attacked and the war seesawed back and forth. General McAurthor vocally called for a joint American, British, Japanese, & Nationalist Chinese army to invade China and defeat the communists; however, Eisenhower didn't want to spark WW3 so he instead negotiated a decant with the communists.

Vietnam (1945-1975)- Another police action in which there was no formal declaration of war. The war started when the French retook control of Indochina after WW2. At first U.S. involvement consisted of simply bank rolling the French war effort, after independence the U.S. bank rolled the south's war effort and provided military advisors, by 1966 U.S. forces became involved in a big way. Importantly, the politicians wouldn't allow the Army to invade North Vietnam for fear of angering the Chinese so the war just kept dragging on and on. By 1972 the war was so unpopular that direct U.S. military involvement ceased, however, the south continued to receive financial and material assistance. Three years later the south capitulated.

Operation Desert Storm (1992)- Everyone one knows how one sided this fight was so I won't waste time writing about it.

[red_ishmael]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Oerdin


1776-1781 The American war of Independence which pitted a rage-tag group of colonials against the most powerful military machine on earth.


Sounds very familiar to something happening right now...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36

This argument is completely missing the point. It is trying to analyse how culture influences nations. But the question is "Which civ is the most powerful". It's CIV, not country. A Civ consists of a group of people sharing common culture. What u should be considering is whether the group of people u are talking about has a distinct culture. To me US doesn't qualify bcos it does not even contain a group of people sharing common culture.

Distinctly American contributions to world culture:

Jazz.
No other country originated this musical form. You can say it was the product of transplanted African cultures, but you'd be missing the point; nowhere in Africa did this musical form exist. It's a product of the American experience, and American history. And it isn't restricted to the African American community....

The Blues/Gospel.
Again, distinctly and uniquely American, a combination of factors such as enforced conversion to Christianity, the use of Christian imagery and metaphors to communicate with each other in code, to give explicit commentary on social affairs that would not be understood by outsiders. You can find the distant ancestors of blues and gospel in Western Europe and North and West Africa, but it's American to its roots.

We could also say the same about country music, how it had its origins in European folk melodies, but it's an American blend of many differing musical influences. Americans can and do celebrate their own communities cultures, but to suggest that America is only a disparate collection of hived off cultures is incorrect, IMHO.

[SofaKing]

The only reasonable answer is Rome. It held the largest empire for the longest period of time. The Mongols came and went with Gengis Khan. China never expanded out of it's corner of the world. The US, while pretty sweet, hasn't been dominant for nearly long enough. It only became dominant in the 1990's after the USSR fell.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by Martinus
The French Constituante (Parliament) adopted the French constitution and the Declaration of (unalienable) civil rights during the period 1789-1791, so US were hardly the only ones.

Aye, you're right, I should've said 1776 (the signing of the Declaration of Independence, which was indisputably the first legal document in the history of the world to recognize unalienable human rights) instead of 1789--I apologize for my slip. 1789 was the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, which transformed the principles of the Declaration of Independence into the political system America still uses today. It is that system to which I refer when I say that America pioneered Democracy and proved to the world that it works. It is the unalienable human rights of Declaration of Independence to which I refer when I speak of cultural domination of the world. Only the combination of the two could've been so successful (a working democracy founded on unalienable human rights beats rights without democracy and democracy without rights), but they both continue to have significant impacts individually as well as jointly.

In case you didn't realize, the French Revolution was a consequence of the American Revolution. The French helped out the US quite a bit, and it emptied France's royal coffers. So, the French are running about helping America fight this war, meanwhile they're going backrupt, so they've got to raise taxes to compensate. This makes the starving French people even less happy. Meanwhile, the French intellectuals are saying, "Okay, we just helped these Americans fight for unalienable rights, but we don't have any ourselves! What's the deal with that?" This makes French people even less happy still. So, when the Revolution is in full swing, these intellectuals, who are enamored with the 1776 Declaration of Independence listing the unalienable rights of man, decide to incorporate those ideas into the First Republic. I realize that this is the "match box" summary of the French revolution (for space's sake), but let me ask you, if you didn't even know that much, what does that say about *your* grasp of European history?

Also, as a brief sidenote: the First Republic failed.

Also, at the same time the slavery was abolished in French colonies (raising great concern of the US Congress btw, that was afraid of black rebellions in America).

Yeah, as I already said, slavery existed in the US. Until 1865, no less. Doesn't change the fact that the US pioneered individual rights (the core of any decent definition of democracy), even if it wasn't fully consistent in its approach. Aside from that, a lack of racial slavery is not indicitive of possession of unalienable rights.

Sacrifices one makes to achieve something are hardly indicative of the cultural dominance. Russians or Chinese, for example, have suffered much greater human losses than, say, Swiss or Belgians during their surge for freedom, but the results are, obviously, hardly proportionate to the sacrifices suffered.

The point I was trying to make was that the US corrected its terrible mistake. You missed it, I explained it. Case closed.

You ARE aware of the fact that by 1860 there was no slavery in British or French colonies, aren't you?

Aye, see above.

Uhm... I advice checking your pocket Latin dictionary again, because the Serb's reply you are quoting, while perhaps a bit fallacious, is hardly an ad hominem attack.

If you really want to get technical here, a pocket Latin dictionary will tell you nothing of the phrase "ad hominem" other than to tell you that homo means man and ad means toward (plus the accusative, of course). I advise checking an English dictionary, and you'll see that a remark designed to rile a person's sense of patriotism instead of making a logical arguement is, in fact, an ad hominem arguement.

Quite contrary to your "cereal" remark, btw.

At best that could be called a snide remark. I certainly wasn't making an arguement with it, though.

Well, it [America's cultural dominance] is disputable, to say the least.

Aye, it is, and that's what we're doing right now, isn't it? We'll see through logic which arguements are better.

The fundamental ideas of Greek (philosophy) and Roman (law) civilisations still form basis of the Western society. Yes, US probably made one of the more spectacular uses of these ideals, but these ideas were hardly invented in 1789.

Yes, I stated before that the Greek philosophy of reason and the Roman system of law form the foundation of American culture. Just as arithmatic and writing form the foundation of calculus. However, I'd hardly call the US a rehash of Greece or Rome anymore than I'd call calculus simply a rehash of arithmatic. The ideas America embodied weren't all invented in 1776 and 1789, but many of them were, and America was certainly the first country to implement them. You could say that America is a logical conclusion of the synthesis of Greek philosophy, Roman law, and John Locke's political philosophy, plus many new American ideas (seperation of powers, for instance), just as Calculus is the logical conclusion of the synthesis of many different fields of mathematics adapted to fit new environments. American culture *is* a new creation because it had never been done before. And that's why America is the dominant cultural influence today--because it was the first to reach that logical conclusion.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by SofaKing
The only reasonable answer is Rome. It held the largest empire for the longest period of time.

How did you measure this? There have been plenty of other large empires, both modern and ancient. Is this based on some sort of formula? Total land area divided by decades of rule? Anything?

The Mongols came and went with Gengis Khan.

Not true--they did plenty of Post-Genghis humping (the whole of China under Kublai, for instance).

China never expanded out of it's corner of the world.

China is a pretty bloody big "corner" of the world. You might say that Rome never expanded out of its "corner" of the world, either--if you define corner as some immensely vast territory.

The US, while pretty sweet, hasn't been dominant for nearly long enough. It only became dominant in the 1990's after the USSR fell.

The US has been culturally dominant for a long, long time--as evinced by millions of immigrants travelling across an entire ocean without much more than the clothes on their backs in order to secure a life of freedom.

What was the name of that other superpower that had that "cold war" thingey with the Soviet Union? Oh yeah, Peru.