Some thoughts on Civ3 (LONG)

[HawaiiFive-O]

Having played the game with every available second of free time for the last week, I'm going to pause for a moment and post some thoughts and proposed solutions to a few of the problems I perceive with the game.

First, let me assure you that I love the game. It's keeping me up at night, preventing me from concentrating at work, and generally getting me into hot water with the wife.

It is not perfect, however. Nor do I presume that my vision of "perfect" will match everyone else's. Some things that bother me won't bother you, and some of the things that bother you won't bother me, that's just the way it goes.

1) Colonies: I can't help but think that colonies were added early during the developmental cycle, and the AI's all out REX strategy (a nod to whoever first thought that phrase up) was added later. I like the concept of colonies, implementation is impossible however as the AI will just plunk a settler down right next door and there goes your colony. My solution would be that a colony has a culture/border radius of 1 (the surrounding 9 squares). This would prevent you from losing your colony due to an AI settler, though if their culture was strong enough to "push" into the colony you'd still be screwed (perhaps this could be an act of war?). If culture from one of your cities "pushes" itself into the colony, it would still disappear. It would also allow you to seal off strategic gaps in your border, this would be self limiting as you are giving up a pop point for the land grab. It would allow you to actually use one of the cooler features in the game.

2) Tone down the AI's Rapid Early eXpansion (REX): At least at the lower difficulty levels. Ratchet it back just a notch. Here's a story- my wife, who is a casual gamer, tried the game. When I checked on her a couple of hours later, she was almost in tears of frustration with dealing with the AI's incessant expansion. Really! It turned her off to the game (Chieftain level). Here's my fear/theory. The Firaxis game designers read these boards. They've read all the exploits gamers used against Civ2's AI. The Firaxians set about closing most of the loopholes and designing an AI that used some of the human tactics against the humans. And, to some extent, they succeeded. They sought to make the game challenging, and they did. However, I fear they may have made it too challenging for the beginner/casual gamer. Really, playing the easiest level should not be an exercise in frustration. Don't touch the higher levels, just the lower ones.

3) Get rid of Sudden Unit Death Syndrome (SUDS): I can accept that a city might revolt on me after conquest. I do not accept that all my units just go poof when this happens. I'd be willing to accept: a) being moved one square out of the city, b) a random chance of damage to each unit so moved, c) auto capture of 0 defense units by the "resistance", and d) a random number of conscript level defense units magically created in the city based on city size, with an attendant loss in city population.

4) Fix Air Superiority: Please.

5) Fix Airpower vs. Ships: Planes should be able to sink ships. 'Nuff said.

6) Corruption: The thing to remember here is this is a game. A game should be both challenging and fun. The current corruption system is nothing more than an artificial brake on human expansion. Being a perfectionist builder, this doesn't bother me most of the time but I can see it being a game breaker for some Alexander type players. I'm not saying get rid of corruption, I actually like the current system. I'd change two things- a) Ditch the penalty for being on another landmass. That kills my favorite type of game, Island Hopping. And b) allow more means of controlling corruption. For example, a Police Station should also lower corruption. Certain technology advances should help with corruption, as faster travel and instantaneous communication ameliorate the distances involved. Flight, Radio, and Satellites would be perfect for this. Decide on a max corruption recovery level based on a particular government, and work the percentages backwards from there. Give the city the opportunity to recover at least 25% of it's production, based on a worst case city placement/best case government + tech + improvements.

7) Advisors: I like their comments but I'd like them to be more forthcoming. I'd like an "All" choice in addition to "More", that way I don't have to keep clicking to get their pearls of wisdom.

8) Diplomacy/Trade: I'd like it if there was a screen I could go to review all of my current trades/agreements. Am I getting hosed on my deal to the Zulus for Wine? When does my Mutual Protection pact with the French expire? To answer these questions I have to start negotiations with the Civ. I hope that calling on the other leaders doesn't result in a drain in relations, because I'm nagging them every other turn just so I can review what is going on with my empire.

9) Resources: Love 'em. Sure I don't like it when there's not a drop of Oil in my territory, but that's realistic. I look at it like this, if every Civ was guaranteed resource placement within their borders, why bother having resources?

10) Combat: While some report wildly unpredictable results, I can honestly say I haven't seen many. In general, like 90% of the time, the better unit wins. Occasionally the luck breaks the other way. Oh well. If you want assured destruction, nuke 'em. It's too bad that Firaxis didn't predict the uproar that would arise on these boards the first time someone's tank was beat by a spearman. They could have saved some grief by simply autorenaming the ancient units as time went on, so that in the Modern Era Spearman=Militia, for example. Honestly, guys, it's the stats that matter. Do you honestly think the "Spearman" unit is still fighting with spears in the 21st Century? Just think of it as a militia unit, or light infantry, or National Guard, or drunk shotgun-wielding pickup-driving Texans. Whatever it takes to get you over the hump and back to suspending your disbelief.

11) Governors: If I could, I'd round up every one of my governors and have them shot. I'd love an option to completely turn them off and force the computer to prompt me for my next build order. Or default to the same build order if I last built a military unit. I find myself shrieking (ok, not really, but I want to) at the screen, "Damn you Governor Pataki! We are in the middle of a war with the hated Aztecs! Why on earth would you decide to start building the Forbidden Palace? Damn it man, build Infantry!"

12) Unit selection: If the computer wants me to move Settler A, but I am much more interested in working with Artillery A all the way across the continent, I'd like it if the game didn't jump me back to Settler A after I was done with Artillery A- it should default to the next unit in the same stack. It is maddening coordinating wars the way it is.

That's it. I'm sure I forgot something, but that's what bugs me about the game. And really, they aren't major complaints. Overall, though, I give the game two big . It's addictive and fun and... oh screw it, I'm going to go play some more...

[GoldenPanda]

brilliant.

[The Unknown]

Yeah, what he said.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Colonies: I can't help but think that colonies were added early during the developmental cycle, and the AI's all out REX strategy (a nod to whoever first thought that phrase up)

Thanks!

[D4everman]

Hmmm...but when you play for hours and hours and are hpping mad at the romans and can't wait to kick some Caesar Ass when you get gunpowder, its a bit of a let down to find that the Romans have EVERY DAMNED SALTPETER SOURCE in the entire WORLD! Hell, I got disgusted in one game when there were NO Horses on my entire Big-Ass continent.

But you're right, its just that its frustrating.

9) Resources: Love 'em. Sure I don't like it when there's not a drop of Oil in my territory, but that's realistic. I look at it like this, if every Civ was guaranteed resource placement within their borders, why bother having resources?

[Kaak]

Yup, Excellent.

[TechWins]

Really, playing the easiest level should not be an exercise in frustration. Don't touch the higher levels, just the lower ones

For me it's that the constant AI expansion is too easy because of the frenzy it does it in. The AI will go to great lenghts to continously expand when it should settle down and focus on it's current land. Yeah, expansion is great for the AI as long as it is still benefiting the AI. Too many times the AI will continue to expand and damage it's empire because it failed to concentrate on infastructure. After this occurrs I just simply go tear the AI apart. If the expansion would have stopped a little earlier this would not have happened.

My solution would be that a colony has a culture/border radius of 1 (the surrounding 9 squares

I came up with this same exact idea back in July and everybody either ignored me or thought I was stupid (ok so maybe not that harsh).

Overall, I think your grievances are correct, and they NEED to be fixed. For now the game is just a bore for ME because of the excessive AI expansion that damages its empire. Also, fortresses need to be fixed, as well.

[Altuar]

Well done. Firaxians, take notice.

Lets keep this one up. Bump.

[HawaiiFive-O]

Thanks for the replies.

Now some responses:

D4everman- Yup, it's frustrating when you end up not having the resources you need. A couple of games back I was rolling. I had the Iroquois in my hip pocket and I was laying waste to the Aztecs and setting my sights on the English subcontinent. Then I discovered that I had no Oil. No problem, I'll pay my buddies the Iroquois for some (which started the death spiral of extortion some have posted about). Then I had no Aluminum. Then I had no Uranium. Then my only source of Coal ran out.

Good grief. I somehow squeezed out a Space victory, but I resorted to selling off some of my Aztec city captures to meet the ridiculous demands of my AI trading partners.

But that makes the game fun. Wasn't there many discussions on this board about defeating Inevitable Victory Syndrome and the Rise and Fall of Civilizations?

Ahh... but we didn't mean MY civilization might fall, right? Heh. I like the Resource system.

Techwins- I agree that REX hampers early AI development. I have noticed, however, once all usable land is consumed, the AI starts building up their infrastructure pretty rapidly. You are right, though, an early war will catch them off balance. I might have to give that a try.

[Akaoz]

Very good post. Add in the fact that the AI doesn’t enforce it’s own borders against other AI’s and it would be perfect

-Alech

[cort]

excellent ideas. especially the colony one..

hope fraxians read this.

[LaRusso]

great post, especially the colony idea. AI often goes to tundra and makes stupid cities that i have to raze and then use workers to reestablish colonies - that is really really tedious......
corruption is fine, it is just that second continent penalty should be tweaked down. otherwise, it is really really fine.
combat - spot on!

firaxis please read this and implement!
and yes, ceterum censeo....send us the designer's notes....

[Linenoise]

Bump!

[syndicatedragon]

I hope you posted your suggestions to the Firaxis website as well... that way you can be sure that someone will read them.

S

[kmj]

They could have saved some grief by simply autorenaming the ancient units as time went on

This is a very good point. In fact, though I haven't heard of it before, I really wish it had been done this way. Chances are, if anything is done to address this issue, it won't be this suggestion, but this is the best I've heard. I mean, a few guys slingin' arrows on a galley won't do much, but add in a few black market rocket launchers and there's a chance even a battle ship could go down if it's caught by suprise.

[Altuar]

bump. Firaxis, read and heed.

[raingoon]

Great ideas. Under diplomacy, in addition to your idea for a Trade Overview screen, I wish the diplomatic options included the ability to demand third party actions. Specifically: "Offer Peace to..." and "Cancel Right-of-Passage Treaty with..."

[Stromprophet]

My idea on colonies is that they should be used early in the game and are useless later.

It's hard to use them early though as you mention the computer ICS or REX is insane and they steal them early. If you're not careful. I think I'm pretty careful.

But then again, they can be useful. If you get in the tech lead, and discover coal. Say in a remote area, that the computer is off from. Or the computer is just barely not getting them, then you can build a colony, or a city and claim it. I'm building cities more often to claim resources.

Another note though. In scenarios, say New World, Colonizing especially, when the Comp doesn't REX, it might be very important to obtain these resources by colonies.

I like the resources in general. They are cool. They cause wars, conlfict, trade, and can be a way to screw civs over.

[Madine]

I agree that the game is way too tough in chieftain. I am playing a game in chieftain now. I'm dominating , but I can see that new players would have lots of problems.

The AIs reckless expansionism + the harsh corruption rules = lameness

When you raze a city, the AI will just build another one in the exact same spot. This means that overall razing is not very effective. So if you start taking AI cities, you have to let them stand, even though the corruption rules make them ineffective. So the only way to ultimately curb AI expansion is to hold onto a bunch of unproductive cities. I can live with that, but it seems lame.

I like the idea of having corruption penalties for large empires. I don't like corruption rates approaching 100%.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Madine
When you raze a city, the AI will just build another one in the exact same spot. This means that overall razing is not very effective.

Maybe we need a "salt their fields" command. That would stop them from coming back....

Seriously, this is a great thread. HawaiiFive-O has some great ideas and I hope Firaxis listens to them.

[Altuar]

bump

[deanco]

I still remember my first game of Civ. It was on Chieftan, I had no idea how anything worked, and I roundly kicked the AI's ass. My first impression was, not only is this the most fun game I ever played, but it's easy to win as well. Let's play another, on Prince this time. Here I am, 8 years later.

So yes, I agree with the original post. Make Chieftan a cakewalk, and Prince just a bit harder than that. After that, every man for himself. I think this is real important if you want to sell a lot of copies and make a lot of new fans, really I do.

DeanCo--

[Yoleus]

Lovely.
Bump